Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

[Lecontinentperdu]

I see what you mean and apologize. I did not want to seem rude- Just trying to contextualise, and saying that on a broader scale (ie, not US centric) it was a great set. That the most important for Criterion enthusiasts is there. I might be wrong but I doubt that there is any dub on their Bergman (gorgeous but Godzilla first !) set. Lets say that I see the glass half full

[Space Hunter M]

I might be wrong but I doubt that there is any dub on their Bergman (gorgeous but Godzilla first !) set. Lets say that I see the glass half full

Both Criterion releases carry the English dub of The Seventh Seal as an option.

Criterion's release of Rashomon has the English dub, as does Bicycle Thieves.

They also bothered to include the English cut of Fritz Lang's M.

Why is it okay to include English versions of these "prestigious" films but not for a handful of crummy general release genre movies?

Us dubs have been released a numerous time, havent they ?

Try to apply this same mentality to when Germany was outraged when the original dubs of Jaws and Raiders of the Lost Ark were jettisoned for later releases (before they were rightfully reinstated). Or the countless Latin American Spanish dubs of films that have become displaced by newer efforts throughout the years.

[Godzilla21]

Case in (counter) point: my kids are too young to make use of subtitles but they are huge Godzilla fans RIGHT NOW. Why should they be excluded from enjoying this cool new set, which contains Japanese-only versions of several of their absolute favorite Godzilla movies, and be forced to make due with older, inferior, out of print versions? They shouldn’t. But you seem to have the attitude that “hey, I got what *I* wanted, so forget anyone else.”

I mean is it super difficult to pop in your Classic Media version of Godzilla's Revenge instead of the Criterion disc to get the dub? You have to change discs anyway to get to another film. I get that people are upset that the dubs aren't included (I'd gladly would pay extra if they would) but I think my 3 year old daughter would survive if she watched the standard definition CM disc as opposed to the crappy 2008 Toho versions right?

[Lecontinentperdu]

Bottom line for me : alternate cuts and dubs would have been welcomed. But They are not the core of the project. And your analogies are touching the point that I'm trying to make with my broken english: the Criterion treatment for Godzilla flicks is a proof of the recognition of their cultural value. Asking the same for the us dubs is stretching the thing too far. This is scholar aera. Or hardcore fan aera. Not cinephilic pantheon. Again: them being present would have pleased me, sure, even on a symbolic, non practical level. But I can see why its not the case. Cheers.

[UltramanGoji]

Acting like the inclusion of alternate versions of the films isn't "scholarly" or that Criterion isn't specifically for people who would be classified as "cinephiles" is just being willfully ignorant at this point.

[Tamura]

Both Criterion releases carry the English dub of The Seventh Seal as an option.

Criterion's release of Rashomon has the English dub, as does Bicycle Thieves.

They also bothered to include the English cut of Fritz Lang's M.

Why is it okay to include English versions of these "prestigious" films but not for a handful of crummy general release genre movies?

The English dubbed versions of all those films - both prestigious and kaiju films - were created so that they could be screened in absolutely ANY circumstance... any average neighborhood house, any bougie arthouse, any rural drive-in... because they were seen as having wide appeal, and therefore seen as very lucrative. The American dubbed version is the reason these films became instantly iconic household names, ingrained in the American imagination. A scholarly, annotated, Criterion or Criterion-like edition of any of these films, therefore, shouldn't skip the original dubs. Allowing the original dubs to be accessible on video gives context to the American scholarly literature about these films published in the years after they were released, since it is these dubbed versions that would have been cited (unless a subtitled version was simultaneously released).

American dubbed versions were accessible not just to children, but to entire classes of people and entire communities... as many people as possible. Someone should research how many arthouses were even open nationwide in the first three decades after WWII, the neighborhoods they served, and therefore the communities who were able to access these theaters. If it weren't for the efforts of Lopert Films, Peter Riethof, Joe Levine and other post-WWII dubbing pioneers, I'm willing to bet none of these classics would have been accessed by anyone other than basically upper-middle class white male cinephiles and college film students, who would have also probably been predominantly white males.

M has a slightly different context, though. Just like any dub, it's a fascinating alternate version, but it dates to a time when both dubbing and subtitling were just two of a number of experimental, crude localization methods for sound films, including some real dodo birds that were abandoned nearly as soon as they were tested out, like the Dunning process as applied to making foreign versions... that one is a truly obscure oddity that needs to be more adequately documented. This was before the post-war dubbed import boom, when greater numbers of Italian, French, and later Japanese imports started competing in the post-war, post-studio system American cinema marketplace as Americanized general release films.

Just because dubbed versions of Godzilla films haven't been given a treatment on video that allows them to be accepted into some arbitrary pantheon or canon doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't happen. It won't happen so long as cowards like Toho say the dubs don't exist while blocking their release.

[GodzFire]

better than any releases that's been before it.

Outside of Kraken's release of Sea Monster, Hedorah, and Gigan....I'm pretty sure that for 12 of the 15 films, these WILL look better than any release before it, even if marginally.

Not trying to split hairs, but screen-grabs have shown that while using the same 2008 source as the Toho masters, Criterion's tweaks have enhanced and maximized what was there. That is SOMETHING.

There is no DVD or Blu Ray I can go buy that will have them looking better than they do here. You have the Criterion solo release of the original that is a match, and the Kraken Blu Rays that DO look better visually even if the framing is cropped and they have the US title cards.

Yes, it could and should have been a much more dramatic upgrade that crushed all previous incarnations by a wide margin. For 11 of the 15 films presented here, the alternatives are expensive/out of print DVDs that look worse.

------------------------------------

There were shots from the 2019 Champion Festival of most of the Showa Godzilla movies using proper new-modern transfers that COMPLETELY blow out of the water the quality of what is being put on the boxset, and when you see them, you'll be both disappointed and frustrated these were available, from Toho, and apparently not allowed to be used (unless you are Toho's PR spinmaster Chrispy_G)

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=2755
JetJagga: Toho 2008 transfer of a low-contrast print struck from a duplicate negative vs scan of re-edited original camera negative from a 2019 Japanese TV broadcast:



https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=2756
omgitsgodzilla: Some more comparisons with the 2019 scans of the Champion Festival edits.
Notes:

• All of the films from All Monsters Attack had their first run in the festival unedited; the new scans were only for the edited reissues.
• Some of the scenes in the review's screenshots were cut from these edits, so they can't be compared.
• King Kong vs. Godzilla (not included here), Mothra vs. Godzilla, and Invasion of Astro-Monster were recut for the festival on their negatives. Those were probably the source for the new scans. The rest were cut on something else; maybe an interpositive.
• I don't know how extensively these scans were cleaned up for broadcast, but it looks minimal to my eyes. These aren't painstaking restorations.
• I think the Champion broadcast of Mothra vs. Godzilla was recorded by a different person from the rest; the file I have is labeled differently and the quality is noticeably worse, but it'll suffice for comparing the colors.

Mothra vs. Godzilla











Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster





Invasion of Astro-Monster







Ebirah, Horror of the Deep







Son of Godzilla



Destroy All Monsters

[Tamura]

The two most important comparisons, IMO, are the MvsG and IoAM comparisons, considering they were scanned from the original negatives. The rest of the Champion versions were edited on dupe negatives, instead, so those should have an inherently soft, grainy look. Just look at the texture of the surface of Planet X, or the Controller's antenna. The new scans of the Champion versions of MvsG and IoAM are just stunning. The best I've ever seen any classic kaiju film ever look.

[Godzilla21]

Can't wait till we get the Toho 4K versions of these films around 2036.

[Godzamera]

better than any releases that's been before it.

Outside of Kraken's release of Sea Monster, Hedorah, and Gigan....I'm pretty sure that for 12 of the 15 films, these WILL look better than any release before it, even if marginally.

Not trying to split hairs, but screen-grabs have shown that while using the same 2008 source as the Toho masters, Criterion's tweaks have enhanced and maximized what was there. That is SOMETHING.

There is no DVD or Blu Ray I can go buy that will have them looking better than they do here. You have the Criterion solo release of the original that is a match, and the Kraken Blu Rays that DO look better visually even if the framing is cropped and they have the US title cards.

Yes, it could and should have been a much more dramatic upgrade that crushed all previous incarnations by a wide margin. For 11 of the 15 films presented here, the alternatives are expensive/out of print DVDs that look worse.

------------------------------------

There were shots from the 2019 Champion Festival of most of the Showa Godzilla movies using proper new-modern transfers that COMPLETELY blow out of the water the quality of what is being put on the boxset, and when you see them, you'll be both disappointed and frustrated these were available, from Toho, and apparently not allowed to be used (unless you are Toho's PR spinmaster Chrispy_G)

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=2755
JetJagga: Toho 2008 transfer of a low-contrast print struck from a duplicate negative vs scan of re-edited original camera negative from a 2019 Japanese TV broadcast:



https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=2756
omgitsgodzilla: Some more comparisons with the 2019 scans of the Champion Festival edits.
Notes:

• All of the films from All Monsters Attack had their first run in the festival unedited; the new scans were only for the edited reissues.
• Some of the scenes in the review's screenshots were cut from these edits, so they can't be compared.
• King Kong vs. Godzilla (not included here), Mothra vs. Godzilla, and Invasion of Astro-Monster were recut for the festival on their negatives. Those were probably the source for the new scans. The rest were cut on something else; maybe an interpositive.
• I don't know how extensively these scans were cleaned up for broadcast, but it looks minimal to my eyes. These aren't painstaking restorations.
• I think the Champion broadcast of Mothra vs. Godzilla was recorded by a different person from the rest; the file I have is labeled differently and the quality is noticeably worse, but it'll suffice for comparing the colors.

Mothra vs. Godzilla











Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster





Invasion of Astro-Monster







Ebirah, Horror of the Deep







Son of Godzilla



Destroy All Monsters

The colors are beautiful.

[G-MAN]

Outside of Kraken's release of Sea Monster, Hedorah, and Gigan....I'm pretty sure that for 12 of the 15 films, these WILL look better than any release before it, even if marginally.

Not trying to split hairs, but screen-grabs have shown that while using the same 2008 source as the Toho masters, Criterion's tweaks have enhanced and maximized what was there. That is SOMETHING.

There is no DVD or Blu Ray I can go buy that will have them looking better than they do here. You have the Criterion solo release of the original that is a match, and the Kraken Blu Rays that DO look better visually even if the framing is cropped and they have the US title cards.

Yes, it could and should have been a much more dramatic upgrade that crushed all previous incarnations by a wide margin. For 11 of the 15 films presented here, the alternatives are expensive/out of print DVDs that look worse.

------------------------------------

There were shots from the 2019 Champion Festival of most of the Showa Godzilla movies using proper new-modern transfers that COMPLETELY blow out of the water the quality of what is being put on the boxset, and when you see them, you'll be both disappointed and frustrated these were available, from Toho, and apparently not allowed to be used (unless you are Toho's PR spinmaster Chrispy_G)

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=2755
JetJagga: Toho 2008 transfer of a low-contrast print struck from a duplicate negative vs scan of re-edited original camera negative from a 2019 Japanese TV broadcast:



https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=2756
omgitsgodzilla: Some more comparisons with the 2019 scans of the Champion Festival edits.
Notes:

• All of the films from All Monsters Attack had their first run in the festival unedited; the new scans were only for the edited reissues.
• Some of the scenes in the review's screenshots were cut from these edits, so they can't be compared.
• King Kong vs. Godzilla (not included here), Mothra vs. Godzilla, and Invasion of Astro-Monster were recut for the festival on their negatives. Those were probably the source for the new scans. The rest were cut on something else; maybe an interpositive.
• I don't know how extensively these scans were cleaned up for broadcast, but it looks minimal to my eyes. These aren't painstaking restorations.
• I think the Champion broadcast of Mothra vs. Godzilla was recorded by a different person from the rest; the file I have is labeled differently and the quality is noticeably worse, but it'll suffice for comparing the colors.

Mothra vs. Godzilla











Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster





Invasion of Astro-Monster







Ebirah, Horror of the Deep







Son of Godzilla



Destroy All Monsters

The colors are beautiful.

Completely agree and it's so stupid that a company like criterion coudlnt try to get some access to them. As they look far more natural looking. And yeah honestly I've said it before as have others but Criterion could have honestly some much more than what they were given. But they haven't maximized or really done any restoration work. Slightly adjusting the contrast was definitely needed for sure. But there is much more that they could've done.

Can't remember where or who said it but someone was saying that they have it on good word thst the set was only being worked on for a year or so. Which honestly makes so much sense with what little was actually done.

And I've said it before but it really seems criterion was more interested in the name value of these films And getting as many of them and other classic Toho films for their streaming service. So they can add to their catalogue and have more reasons for people to sign up for their service.

[goji1986]

Can't remember where or who said it but someone was saying that they have it on good word thst the set was only being worked on for a year or so. Which honestly makes so much sense with what little was actually done.

I really still don't understand why you insist on saying Criterion showed little interest in this set when it's been stated, time and time again, that Toho put huge restrictions on them that limited what they could do. Their hands were tied, end of story. Actual work on the set may have taken a year but they spent a solid amount of time planning this release - I know this for a fact because I was made aware of their plans in December 2017!!! - which included figuring out where to find the best elements for the US dubs - before that was completely axed by Toho.

[Chrispy_G]

There are a lot of fans who surely like the movies because they first encountered them as kids.

My point is this: There are a lot of things I was a fan of as a kid, but am NOT a fan of as an adult(Say...Beetleborgs, for example)....there are a lot of things I am a fan of as an adult that I would have found 'boring' as a kid(The Shawshank Redemption). There are things I was a fan of as a kid that I am also a fan of as an adult.

If a kid gets introduced to Godzilla and likes it...that kid will either continue to like Godzilla as an adult, OR fall out of love of it as he grows up.

If that same kid misses out on Godzilla as a kid....as an adult, that kid will either become a fan and discover Godzilla, OR never find it interesting.

I just can't get on board how important this "these movies are for kids so oh my gosh we need to save them"

At this point....my 3 year old nephew literally became a Godzilla fan just by watching the Godzilla Anime on Netflix and having his parents skip to the Godzilla scenes. My brother took him to King of the Monsters and he loved that. He watches fight scenes from the Showa and Heisei movies on YouTube.

The scenario of say...renting Godzilla's Revenge from Blockbuster or one of the streaming services and showing that to a kid and them becoming a fan.....that's pretty much not happening any more. That's more or less from a bygone era.

These films in their entirety exist now for us, the "cinephiles" who want to appreciate them for what they are, for people who become fans, and reach an age where they feel like going back and collecting the history. The old films are basically all about legacy and history and posterity. There isn't a market for buying kids Godzilla vs The Thing on Blu Ray. Kids these days are watching the MonsterVerse. If they grow and become bigger fans, they will go back and find the older films in their own way. Or they won't.

There is an embarrassment of riches when it comes to finding a Godzilla movie by which to turn an unknowing kid into a fan. My first choice would be the MonsterVerse, and after that I'd probably say Godzilla 2000 would be the best bet or even Final Wars.

If we are talking "little kids"....well whip out the DVDs that exist and show them that, they certainly aren't cinephiles that demand that the old 60s film you are foisting onto them is given a pristine presentation.

Sure, if they were included I would not complain, if Criterion wanted to and Toho blocked it, I dislike that Toho suppressed Criterion's hopes and goals for the set.

But don't ask me to weep for the loss of alt-versions of these films. KOTM and G2000 seem canonized even by Toho at this point, and the deals in place pretty much ensures the existence of the US version of King Kong vs Godzilla in perpetuity. All of the others can fall by the wayside.

I have no more interest in the "Americana" version of Ghidorah, The Three-Headed Monster than I do in the Chinese Edit of Iron Man 3 or Bohemian Rhapsody.

Added in 14 minutes 26 seconds:

better than any releases that's been before it.

Outside of Kraken's release of Sea Monster, Hedorah, and Gigan....I'm pretty sure that for 12 of the 15 films, these WILL look better than any release before it, even if marginally.

Not trying to split hairs, but screen-grabs have shown that while using the same 2008 source as the Toho masters, Criterion's tweaks have enhanced and maximized what was there. That is SOMETHING.

There is no DVD or Blu Ray I can go buy that will have them looking better than they do here. You have the Criterion solo release of the original that is a match, and the Kraken Blu Rays that DO look better visually even if the framing is cropped and they have the US title cards.

Yes, it could and should have been a much more dramatic upgrade that crushed all previous incarnations by a wide margin. For 11 of the 15 films presented here, the alternatives are expensive/out of print DVDs that look worse.

------------------------------------

There were shots from the 2019 Champion Festival of most of the Showa Godzilla movies using proper new-modern transfers that COMPLETELY blow out of the water the quality of what is being put on the boxset, and when you see them, you'll be both disappointed and frustrated these were available, from Toho, and apparently not allowed to be used (unless you are Toho's PR spinmaster Chrispy_G)

I'm talking about anything released in the US. I can't go buy the dang Champion Edit Blu Rays. I've got Classic Media's DVDs, and a couple of Kraken Blu Rays, and some old Sony DVDs as far as the Showa Era goes. This set WILL look better than pretty much all of those.

Criterion's Disc for the original and KOTM will match their current disc. King Kong vs Godzilla looks like at LEAST a match for Uni's current Blu, but maybe a smidge better or worse.

I think, that jumping from Classic Media's mid 00s DVDs with 2 versions and bonus features crammed onto a disc to the current Blu Rays(even of the 2008 masters) in Criterion's set will yield POSITIVE THINGS for: Raids Again, Mothra, Ghidorah, Astro-Monster, All Monsters Attack, and Terror of MechaGodzilla.

It also seems like hands down what we get on the Criterion discs for Destroy All Monsters and Godzilla vs Megalon will look better than what Media Blasters gave us...even on Blu Ray.

With Ebirah, Hedorah, and Gigan....yeah, the Kraken Blu Rays will look better even if "little things" like the framing, original Japanese titles/text/credits, and word bubbles in Gigan are not present on the Kraken Blus....the Kraken blus LOOK better.

With Son of Godzilla and Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla....you are going from PROBABLY better looking sources used for the Sony DVDs, but you are getting the uptick to Blu Ray. So maybe it is a wash...or maybe the Sony DVDs will end up better looking than these Criterion Blus.

So....most films looking better than anything I could buy here in the US. 3 that will likely look a little worse, and 2 that may be a toss up(I'm sure screen grabs might solve it)

Not to mention all of them together, with a consistent presentation, in one cool set, and ALL of the films have fresh, consistent/matching subtitles....which I do put quite a bit of value on.

[airforce111]

refresh my memory, the reason why we have such atrocious hivision transfers from invasion and mothra vs godzilla is because they used the originals to recut the champion versions and thats why the champions look so nice right? I remember reading this somewhere but not sure if correct I can't recall. Man, its night and day specifically for those 2 movies.

[Lecontinentperdu]

Chrispy G kind of sums things up for me (lets be realistic). But I also love the dedication of Tamura (lets be uber fans and as exhaustive as we can be). Kiddo to everyone!

[Terasawa]

Yes, Chrispy, I understood your point; I just totally disagreed with it. So I don’t think you understood mine.

So I’ll reiterate:

What is true for you is not true for every other person on the planet. There are Godzilla fans who would not be Godzilla fans had they not seen these movies as kids. Feel free to author a psychological study about why that’s wrong if you wish, but until then, your experience means no more to me than someone else’s.

It also helps that literally at least a half dozen of these movies were made for kids. No one seems surprised by that except you. So to refresh your memory, the Toho Champion Festival was a semi-annual event in which Toho packaged together a monster film (including the releases of the last six Showa Godzillas), cartoons, comedies, etc. The programming was specifically intended to appeal to children, and as such, the festivals coincided with Japanese holidays (so that kids would be on break from school).

I dunno why Toho just didn’t hold those movies off for ten years for those kids to grow up and first see as adults!

[Lecontinentperdu]

Yep, but its 2019. Kids watch something else. Hell, kids dont watch any Criterion Blu. You fail to see reality as it is. In western world, I mean. But it sure would be great if those blus were ALSO made for kids (or scholars, or uberfans of us dubs, or everyone). Its just not, alas. Its for cinéphiles with devious guilty pleasures at most. And for what it is, its great. I sure would not have dreamt of anything like that five years ago !

[Terasawa]

You fail to see reality as it is.

You’re right. So that’s it for me!

[Malchik]

There are a lot of fans who surely like the movies because they first encountered them as kids.

My point is this: There are a lot of things I was a fan of as a kid, but am NOT a fan of as an adult(Say...Beetleborgs, for example)....there are a lot of things I am a fan of as an adult that I would have found 'boring' as a kid(The Shawshank Redemption). There are things I was a fan of as a kid that I am also a fan of as an adult.

Jesus Christ almighty we get it! You think the American edits are stupid and juvenile and the Japanese version are superior. Most people won't even argue that - most of us here went through our Japanophile stage when we finally got the unaltered Japanese versions stateside. But what most people are saying, here, is the Americanizations are culturally significant and have a right to be preserved. You are being willfully ignorant, Crispy. Wilfully. I don't care if you grew out of what you call childish things, I still want to see these oddball time capsules like Gigantis preserved and available for me to watch on the best possible equipment. You and Lecontinentperdu just can't understand this perspective.

Completely agree and it's so stupid that a company like criterion coudlnt try to get some access to them. As they look far more natural looking. And yeah honestly I've said it before as have others but Criterion could have honestly some much more than what they were given. But they haven't maximized or really done any restoration work. Slightly adjusting the contrast was definitely needed for sure. But there is much more that they could've done

I can answer to you why Toho refused to give Criterion better transfers than what they currently have available: Toho is afraid people in Japan will import the Criterion release if it is superior to their native disks. Licensing films to foreign companies is a lot cheaper and less profitable because they rely on the purchase(e) to do all the physical labour producing disks. If Japanese Godzilla fans import the Criterion disks then Toho doesn't get that publishers markup, Criterion does. I'm sure some Japanese fans will import the Criterion set but Toho will desperately try anything to keep their IP regional to maximize their dollar value.

[UltramanGoji]

It's really hilarious how they're saying "This is a set for cinephiles!" as if cinephiles wouldn't want every conceivable version of the films available in high definition.