Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby G2000 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:40 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:"Unambiguously heroic Godzilla", "Godzilla gets revived by a nuke", and "Godzilla levels a city" are all elements the franchise has used before, I really can't buy the argument that a movie that happens to include all of them betrays the core of the character.


These are roughly my current thoughts to be honest, though to play devil’s advocate I can see where LSD and eabaker are coming from (at least in regards to Serizawa’s sacrifice; I find their objections to the final scene in Boston somewhat more puzzling considering the ending to Godzilla 2000, for example). Godzilla being revived by a nuke in G’84 and then again by a nuclear submarine in GvKG ‘91 (sort of kind of not really) aren’t depicted as positives; the former is the result of an unfortunate series of events that nearly resulted in Tokyo getting outright nuked, and after getting supercharged by Shindo’s submarine Godzilla winds up almost destroying Japan all his lonesome after “saving” it from Ghidorah.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Living Corpse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:47 pm

G2000 wrote:
Ivo-goji wrote:"Unambiguously heroic Godzilla", "Godzilla gets revived by a nuke", and "Godzilla levels a city" are all elements the franchise has used before, I really can't buy the argument that a movie that happens to include all of them betrays the core of the character.


These are roughly my current thoughts to be honest, though to play devil’s advocate I can see where LSD and eabaker are coming from (at least in regards to Serizawa’s sacrifice; I find their objections to the final scene in Boston somewhat more puzzling considering the ending to Godzilla 2000, for example). Godzilla being revived by a nuke in G’84 and then again by a nuclear submarine in GvKG ‘91 (sort of kind of not really) aren’t depicted as positives; the former is the result of an unfortunate series of events that nearly resulted in Tokyo getting outright nuked, and after getting supercharged by Shindo’s submarine Godzilla winds up almost destroying Japan all his lonesome after “saving” it from Ghidorah.


Heisei also got progressively more aggressive till he got a kid. 5 years trapped in a volcano, rooster blocked from a reactor by Biollante, 2 years trapped in the ocean cause of ANEB, swimming through molten rock under the Earth's mantel for days or weeks even after his fight with Battra. And only getting nuclear energy, which he desperately needs to live, every few years, and starving the rest of the time.

Geez no wonder why this guy is pissed.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Thunderbird » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:49 pm

G2000 wrote:
Ivo-goji wrote:"Unambiguously heroic Godzilla", "Godzilla gets revived by a nuke", and "Godzilla levels a city" are all elements the franchise has used before, I really can't buy the argument that a movie that happens to include all of them betrays the core of the character.


These are roughly my current thoughts to be honest, though to play devil’s advocate I can see where LSD and eabaker are coming from (at least in regards to Serizawa’s sacrifice; I find their objections to the final scene in Boston somewhat more puzzling considering the ending to Godzilla 2000, for example). Godzilla being revived by a nuke in G’84 and then again by a nuclear submarine in GvKG ‘91 (sort of kind of not really) aren’t depicted as positives; the former is the result of an unfortunate series of events that nearly resulted in Tokyo getting outright nuked, and after getting supercharged by Shindo’s submarine Godzilla winds up almost destroying Japan all his lonesome after “saving” it from Ghidorah.


I agree with all of this. Excellent points from both parties.

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Ivo-goji » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:52 pm

Living Corpse wrote:
I think it's more a matter they were used in one film at once. Before Godzilla was tanking nukes, even Godzilla vs The Sea Monster made a point of how much a big deal it was for Showa Godzilla to get off Devil Island before the nuclear reactor went off and would presumably kill him. Like I've seen Godzilla dance and fly but even I was weirded out playing the PS4 game and seeing Heisei Godzilla do goofy Showa moves.

G2000 wrote:These are roughly my current thoughts to be honest, though to play devil’s advocate I can see where LSD and eabaker are coming from (at least in regards to Serizawa’s sacrifice; I find their objections to the final scene in Boston somewhat more puzzling considering the ending to Godzilla 2000, for example). Godzilla being revived by a nuke in G’84 and then again by a nuclear submarine in GvKG ‘91 (sort of kind of not really) aren’t depicted as positives; the former is the result of an unfortunate series of events that nearly resulted in Tokyo getting outright nuked, and after getting supercharged by Shindo’s submarine Godzilla winds up almost destroying Japan all his lonesome after “saving” it from Ghidorah.


I mostly agree. Yeah, I get that in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah they faced the same dilemma as KotM, yet the consequences were different because even if Godzilla was the only thing that could beat Ghidorah he was still a villain in that movie.

But Godzilla vs Hedorah didn't try to finesse it's way around the fact that the champion who was rising up to fight a creature spawned by human pollution was himself a creature spawned by human pollution, and fans have pretty much never had a problem with this.

All KotM has done is take the Godzilla from Godzilla vs Hedorah and place him in a world where people recognize that he's a walking atomic bomb. That's a valid, legitimate direction for Godzilla go after more than half a century of different takes on the character.
Last edited by Ivo-goji on Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Thunderbird » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:45 pm

_JNavs_ wrote:Lmao, what has Rodan, Mothra and Ghidorah ever actually stood for? Tornadoes? What? Thunderstorms and Heatwaves?


Honda denied it, but many reviewers interpreted the original Ghidorah as a stand-in for an Imperial Chinese threat to Japan during the Cold War. Saying that the kaiju are just monsters and not metaphors is a bit of a lie considering that the only reason Godzilla's character was created in the first place was to get around the fact that a straight depiction of Hiroshima or Japan at war was outlawed by the Occupation. Eiji Tsuburaya was blacklisted by the US for creating pro-Japanese war films, so making a movie about a rampaging atomic dinosaur simply circumvented the censorship of the era.

In Godzilla's Revenge, Gabara represents bullies and nothing more. And in some movies such as Space Godzilla, Raids Again, or KK vs G'62, there is no metaphor and the kaiju are pretty much just giant stray dogs on the loose who have a territorial standoff for audience lulz.

But most of the time, kaiju represent anything that can quickly cause mass casualties in the thousands if not millions, be it natural disasters, plagues, industrial accidents, regression of civilization into anarchy, acts of war, or acts of terrorism.

I thought GKOTM's use of monsters and storm imagery went a bit beyond the obvious ecological message and stood in for the various mental states of the human characters. Mark is an admitted alcoholic who literally "sees the light" in the form of Mothra. Ghidorah and Godzilla's standoff in the subzero temperatures of Antarctica is preceded by a similarly framed standoff between Emma and Mark that resulted in the latter getting the "cold shoulder". The emotional fallout of their ongoing custody battle triggers the macrocosmic furies, similar to the appearance of tornadoes when the main characters bicker in the Jan de Bont film Twister. After Serizawa's speech about making peace with demons, Mark seems to forgive Godzilla for his son's death just in time to see the same creature save his daughter. Mark's staredown with Godzilla is like a mirror image depicting the destructive yet protective role that masculine energy represents in the natural world. Mothra represents the feminine or yin side of that macrocosmic order. Mothra's failure to destroy Ghidorah and subsequent death forshadow Emma's forfeiture of responsibilty for Madison as well as her own death. The dark clouds in GKOTM represent Emma's chronic depression, as she cannot shake off the demons she summoned and succumbs to them as a form of penance. As Madison returns to her father's custody and witnesses Ghidorah's death, she is freed from the influence of a mentally unbalanced mother, so the storm ends both literally and figuratively.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby BioDestroyer » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:17 am

Living Corpse wrote:I think we are seeing that we can't have our cake and eat it too. Some fan prefer a hero Godzilla, and that's fine. But the character was originally made as a tragic villain who represented the horrors of war. I think it's not impossible, but really hard to balance Godzilla being a hero and still acknowledge that nuclear weapons are pretty much one of the closest things we have to a weapon of "evil". In some ways it probably would have been easier to keep the theme of nuclear war is horrifying had they made Godzilla how he was advertised in the marketing of G2014, a global threat.

I think they could have gotten away with not using nukes and letting Godzilla heal on his own with the natural radiation he found with the uranium deposits in his lair. A sort of nature strikes it's own balance as the films keep bringing up. But of course they had to add a line of that could take years or decades and, well, here we are. I get where they were going with that line, saying humans can't be passive observers, we have to help repair the damages we've caused to the natural world to speed it up, but it's created this clunky situation I'm not even sure how I feel. Though I will defend Boston being vaporized. One mostly empty city or the whole world? Not even a question to me.


I must agree largely with what you've said here. For the bolded, I think that's the more of an issue that fell on the filmmakers (just so you don't think I wrote an essay aimed at you the rest of this post is more aimed at anyone who wants to read it---I just thought you made some great points). In this film, Godzilla was pushed extremely hard (even more so than in 2014) as the hero and who we and the characters should root for and put their trust in (for the most part), instead of just a last resort that'll hopefully solve the MUTO problem. OK, fine. They want him to be the hero. No problems with that. However. This can be a big problem when radiation and atomic energy are such huge parts of this creature simply existing. And I don't just mean in a legendary ode to the origins of Godzilla sort of way.

It was established in these films that Godzilla and other creatures eat as well as spread radiation----that they come from a time on earth when radiation levels were much, much higher than they are now. In fact, the place Godzilla returns to in order to recover from the oxygen destroyer is so radioactive that it destroys robotics (circuitry, specifically I believe) and kills humans within minutes. And although I'm not a scientist or a biologist, I'd say that most people would agree that spreading the stuff is a bad thing. Now of course, we have the after credits saying that radiation started to help things grow but....what? How does that even make sense? Even solar radiation, as great as it is and how it provides so much energy for life on this planet and still provides us with life will give you cancer if you stand in its rays for too long. What kind of radiation are we talking about? Some sort of new, rejuvenating process formerly unknown? This sort of concept can't just be left to an after movie half second screenshot as it's effectively just sweeping a major problem under a rug.

The concept of "we must find a balance these creatures" makes no sense because we fundamentally can't. Unless they mean in way like how Chernobyl is so irradiated that nature now flourishes because humans aren't there which is still a horrible can of worms as the area is still too irradiated for human life and the future effects of the radiation that many of those animals are being exposed to is an ongoing question. They tried to marry the two ideas together---beasts of radiation as well as finding a balance with them---in the most clunky way possible. To the point of which I question the point of bringing in the radiation into the story as they did in the first place. I feel like they would've done much better to minimize it as much as possible or at least make it so the giant monsters (or most) didn't spread radiation around. Radiation was an afterthought in this film when it really should've been higher on the list of things to sort out since they decided to so prominently wave it in our faces.

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Jeff-Goldblum2 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:46 am

I think it means once you've used Nuclear Power there's no going back, no way out and no atonement.

They try to put Godzilla down with a more powerful weapon than a nuke (Oxygen Destroyer) but still need him to stop the monster that's more powerful than Godzilla. So they still have to use nukes. It's the endless cycle of an arms race.

There's even a line about Pandora's Box being opened and no means of ever closing it.

It's worth noting that the '54 Serizawa felt he needed to sacrifice himself if the Oxygen Destroyer was to be used to prevent it ever being used again. The Monsterverse Serizawa is adverse to the use of Nukes due to his father's demise in Hiroshima and when he realizes he has to use a nuke to revive Godzilla he takes it upon himself to sacrifice himself doing it as the cost or his repentance for doing so.

In addition to that, Godzilla may well turn against humans before the end of the series as he's had no less than three super weapons blown up directly in his face by humans. The first two which were honest attempts to kill him, the '54 Bikini Atoll bomb and then the Oxygen Destroyer. Then the third nuke which even though used to revive him would have caused him to explode and die if the Mothra energy hadn't allowed him to expel it.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby bessantj » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:18 pm

A nuclear powered Godzilla is all well and good but what about a music powered Godzilla. Serizawa stood on Godzilla's head blasting out the riff from "Through the Fire and Flames" as Godzilla takes down Ghidorah.

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Jeff-Goldblum2 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:31 pm

I think Voodoo Child the 'Here Comes The Drums' song might be the better option. It was good enough for The Master to invade The Earth too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h8NmjpiY1M

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Terasawa » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:07 pm

bessantj wrote:A nuclear powered Godzilla is all well and good but what about a music powered Godzilla. Serizawa stood on Godzilla's head blasting out the riff from "Through the Fire and Flames" as Godzilla takes down Ghidorah.


I'd take that over Serj Tankian warbling Blue Oyster Cult's "Godzilla" to kill the Monsterverse.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Living Corpse » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:17 pm

Jeff-Goldblum2 wrote:I think it means once you've used Nuclear Power there's no going back, no way out and no atonement.

They try to put Godzilla down with a more powerful weapon than a nuke (Oxygen Destroyer) but still need him to stop the monster that's more powerful than Godzilla. So they still have to use nukes. It's the endless cycle of an arms race.

There's even a line about Pandora's Box being opened and no means of ever closing it.

It's worth noting that the '54 Serizawa felt he needed to sacrifice himself if the Oxygen Destroyer was to be used to prevent it ever being used again. The Monsterverse Serizawa is adverse to the use of Nukes due to his father's demise in Hiroshima and when he realizes he has to use a nuke to revive Godzilla he takes it upon himself to sacrifice himself doing it as the cost or his repentance for doing so.

In addition to that, Godzilla may well turn against humans before the end of the series as he's had no less than three super weapons blown up directly in his face by humans. The first two which were honest attempts to kill him, the '54 Bikini Atoll bomb and then the Oxygen Destroyer. Then the third nuke which even though used to revive him would have caused him to explode and die if the Mothra energy hadn't allowed him to expel it.


Also we blew up his home. Oops. >_>

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BioDestroyer wrote:
Living Corpse wrote:I think we are seeing that we can't have our cake and eat it too. Some fan prefer a hero Godzilla, and that's fine. But the character was originally made as a tragic villain who represented the horrors of war. I think it's not impossible, but really hard to balance Godzilla being a hero and still acknowledge that nuclear weapons are pretty much one of the closest things we have to a weapon of "evil". In some ways it probably would have been easier to keep the theme of nuclear war is horrifying had they made Godzilla how he was advertised in the marketing of G2014, a global threat.

I think they could have gotten away with not using nukes and letting Godzilla heal on his own with the natural radiation he found with the uranium deposits in his lair. A sort of nature strikes it's own balance as the films keep bringing up. But of course they had to add a line of that could take years or decades and, well, here we are. I get where they were going with that line, saying humans can't be passive observers, we have to help repair the damages we've caused to the natural world to speed it up, but it's created this clunky situation I'm not even sure how I feel. Though I will defend Boston being vaporized. One mostly empty city or the whole world? Not even a question to me.


I must agree largely with what you've said here. For the bolded, I think that's the more of an issue that fell on the filmmakers (just so you don't think I wrote an essay aimed at you the rest of this post is more aimed at anyone who wants to read it---I just thought you made some great points). In this film, Godzilla was pushed extremely hard (even more so than in 2014) as the hero and who we and the characters should root for and put their trust in (for the most part), instead of just a last resort that'll hopefully solve the MUTO problem. OK, fine. They want him to be the hero. No problems with that. However. This can be a big problem when radiation and atomic energy are such huge parts of this creature simply existing. And I don't just mean in a legendary ode to the origins of Godzilla sort of way.

It was established in these films that Godzilla and other creatures eat as well as spread radiation----that they come from a time on earth when radiation levels were much, much higher than they are now. In fact, the place Godzilla returns to in order to recover from the oxygen destroyer is so radioactive that it destroys robotics (circuitry, specifically I believe) and kills humans within minutes. And although I'm not a scientist or a biologist, I'd say that most people would agree that spreading the stuff is a bad thing. Now of course, we have the after credits saying that radiation started to help things grow but....what? How does that even make sense? Even solar radiation, as great as it is and how it provides so much energy for life on this planet and still provides us with life will give you cancer if you stand in its rays for too long. What kind of radiation are we talking about? Some sort of new, rejuvenating process formerly unknown? This sort of concept can't just be left to an after movie half second screenshot as it's effectively just sweeping a major problem under a rug.

The concept of "we must find a balance these creatures" makes no sense because we fundamentally can't. Unless they mean in way like how Chernobyl is so irradiated that nature now flourishes because humans aren't there which is still a horrible can of worms as the area is still too irradiated for human life and the future effects of the radiation that many of those animals are being exposed to is an ongoing question. They tried to marry the two ideas together---beasts of radiation as well as finding a balance with them---in the most clunky way possible. To the point of which I question the point of bringing in the radiation into the story as they did in the first place. I feel like they would've done much better to minimize it as much as possible or at least make it so the giant monsters (or most) didn't spread radiation around. Radiation was an afterthought in this film when it really should've been higher on the list of things to sort out since they decided to so prominently wave it in our faces.


It probably would have been better to not make almost every monster in the Monsterverse the result of radiation. Even in Toho's films not every monster is a mutant, lab experiment or alien, some just evolved that way.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby BioDestroyer » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:33 am

Living Corpse wrote:
It probably would have been better to not make almost every monster in the Monsterverse the result of radiation. Even in Toho's films not every monster is a mutant, lab experiment or alien, some just evolved that way.

Definitely agree with that. It's such a strange angle that has such an easy solution. To be honest, the opportunity to use nuclear weapons and energy as any sort of interesting or good part of the storyline were completely squandered and misused in this film.

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby bessantj » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:32 am

Terasawa wrote:
bessantj wrote:A nuclear powered Godzilla is all well and good but what about a music powered Godzilla. Serizawa stood on Godzilla's head blasting out the riff from "Through the Fire and Flames" as Godzilla takes down Ghidorah.


I'd take that over Serj Tankian warbling Blue Oyster Cult's "Godzilla" to kill the Monsterverse.

Yeah, that was pretty bad.

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby tbeasley » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:48 pm

Thought this was an interesting look at the film...
So the new Godzilla was actually a climate change movie, huh?

•The kaiju are the timeless forces of nature that play out in the ecosystem, explicitly personified as monstrous antediluvian beasts
•The primary human antivillain, Emma, is an accelerationist environmentalist, who hopes to set the kaiju free and let them run wild – thus destroying the excesses of human civilization, but preserving the long-term survival of Earth and of humanity
•The kaiju are agitated not only by nuclear fallout, but by all sorts of environmentally unsafe practices, such as aggressive mining, and Scylla ultimately and literally emerges from an oil field
•Ghidorah, the kaiju that surrounds itself in a titanic storm and weaponizes lightning and the weather, literally emerges from the melting antarctic ice cap in a metaphor for global warming disaster
•Humanity suppresses the nuclear Godzilla out of panic and fear of nuclear disaster, thus allowing Ghidorah and global warming to rise to supremacy
•Ghidorah immediately commands all of the other kaiju to terraform the Earth to his inhospitable liking
•Humans have to deliberately descend into Godzilla’s lair and activate dangerous nuclear devices in order to wake him from his hibernation and empower him to defeat Ghidorah
•Mothra, who grows to hydroelectric maturity beneath a waterfall and glows with solar power, fights side-by-side with Godzilla, the living nuclear reactor, in order to defeat Ghidorah
•The kaiju ecosystem, as corrected with human aid through Godzilla, ultimately restores the human environment and the mundane ecosystem to holistic balance and prosperity.

10/10, would watch sustainable energy beat up climate change again.

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby ClandestineCanine9 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:11 pm

isn't the Bikini Atoll nuke the reason he's 108.2 meters in 2014 and not 100? since the nuke in KotM bumped his height it'd make sense if the first nuke he got hit with did, too. that's something they seem to skim over. sure, Godzilla was "reaching critical mass" in KotM, but Mothra helped him expel it. what happens when there is no Mothra to help him? what happens when Godzilla decides to make nuclear weapons his primary source of radiation, rather than Earth's natural emissions?

they should be more scared.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Ivo-goji » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:45 pm

ClandestineCanine9 wrote:sure, Godzilla was "reaching critical mass" in KotM, but Mothra helped him expel it. what happens when there is no Mothra to help him?

This is true. At first Godzilla couldn't control the runaway nuclear energy and was simply going to explode, and Stanton and the others are decidedly freaked out about this. The nuke was treated as a double edged sword, not just a consequence-free power up.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Omegazilla » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:25 pm

I don't understand the problem here. A lot of you wanted an American Godzilla movie and you got it. With the cultural differences between Japan and the US it is unrealistic to expect an American Godzilla movie to still try to appeal to the same audience as a Japanese Godzilla. Audiences in their respective countries are going to want to see different things and this movie is no exception. American movie goers are not going to view nukes the same as Japanese movie goers.

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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby KingKaiju » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:46 am

I think the biggest problem here, as with the movie, is just that they skimmed over it and never dug in. This movie tries doing 1000 things, and never once stops to let something sink in.

That being said, I understand why the themes of the original wouldn't work here. As others have said, it's an American Godzilla movie. Godzilla's themes, and what he represents goes deeper in their society than it does to us. We've never had a bomb dropped on us, we don't know what that feels like.
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Re: Nuclear Power and Godzilla King of the Monsters

Postby Major sssspielberg! » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:20 pm

I think the biggest problem was that this was an American production of a flim in a series that started out criticizing America's carelessness with nuclear weapons, in which nuclear weapons and doomsday weapons are thrown around without any real clear message. The fact is the Godzilla series is chock full of symbolism. When there's a mega weapon or a nuke often times there's some sort of symbolism or real life issue attached, like the sub in vs King Ghidorah or the oxygen destroyer. (I'll grant there's not a lot of subtext behind stuff like the maser cannons.) But really KOTM doesn't say much aside from "hey, nukes make Godzilla strong, hey remember how my dad's watch stopped cuz Hiroshima, but I'm gonna go put a nuke up Godzilla's nose, hey, let's drop the oxygen destroyer for pure fan service, and btw the radioactive hellbeasts are actually kinda good for earth." What does any of that actually say about topics that have been intrinsic to the series to some extent for years? They touch on a lot of things Godzilla and Kaiju films have always used for a bit of commentary or depth, but never really do anything with any of them. And I think that rubs some people wrong because a Japanese film where Godzilla flexes his nuclear powers comes off much less ignorant than an American one, given how our culture is percieved and our nuclear weapon use is the whole reason the series existed.
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