Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

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Do you consider Awakening Canon or not

Yes
29
30%
No
36
38%
Part of it
21
22%
It is part of canon, but I would prefer if it was not
5
5%
No, but I like it anyway
5
5%
 
Total votes: 96

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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby Olzh26 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:01 am

Gawdziller1954 wrote:
Ivo-goji wrote:
Gawdziller1954 wrote:That's not Godzilla attacking a ship, that's Godzilla intercepting Shinomura.

Um
Image
That looks like a ship getting attacked to me.

Now he was also pursuing Shinomura when this happened, but (as I've already pointed out many times), no one believed Serizawa the Elder when he said Godzilla was chasing Shinomura the whole time. Monarch only realized Godzilla was attacking ships in hindsight, because at first they thought it was the Russians, but that doesn't mean they realized why he was doing it until after the MUTO incident, which was what confirmed that the two Serizawas were right about Godzilla's instinct towards other kaiju.

Surprising, seeing as it only took me a few reads of Awakening side-by-side to the film and other materials to conclude awakening contradicts MV canon.
Godzilla attacking a large, weaponized, foreign object in his territory isn't unusual, he only backed off of castle bravo after they lowered their arms. Animals attack vehicles in their territory all the time, and just because Godzilla is supposed to violent toward other kaiju doesn't mean he didn't perceive the loud, noise, large, and dangerously-armed foreign objects in his territory to be intruders/challengers.

Added in 9 minutes 10 seconds:
Ivo-goji wrote:
Gawdziller1954 wrote:That's not Godzilla attacking a ship, that's Godzilla intercepting Shinomura.

Um
Image
That looks like a ship getting attacked to me.

Now he was also pursuing Shinomura when this happened, but (as I've already pointed out many times), no one believed Serizawa the Elder when he said Godzilla was chasing Shinomura the whole time. Monarch only realized Godzilla was attacking ships in hindsight, because at first they thought it was the Russians, but that doesn't mean they realized why he was doing it until after the MUTO incident, which was what confirmed that the two Serizawas were right about Godzilla's instinct towards other kaiju.

"Lucky Dragon" Featurette states that the ships were lost "over the past months". I'd think that if they attacks happened for years (as they did in Awakening) they'd say "Years."

Then why did the USS Lawton Incident happen in 1943?

This also contradicts the fact that Shinomura is considered the only culprit for the attacks in the comics.

Not after they identified Godzilla and immediately decided to blow him up.

Given that Lucky Dragon, the Monarch Timeline, and the explanation given in 2014 contradict Awakening, this is false.

Not really, not unless you bend over backwards to interpret the information in other Monsterverse sources specifically to exclude Awakening.

The people writing the actual material (KotM novelization, Aftershocks) clearly consider Awakening canon.

Awakening does more damage to canon than it does good.

It takes a fine tooth comb and a significant amount of imagination to arrive at these "contradictions" that allegedly damage the canon so much.

If anything, Awakening solves a major inconsistency in Godzilla's characterization throughout the Monsterverse's history: Why did Godzilla attack human vessels at any point in time if he's supposed to be only violent towards other kaiju? Because those incidents were all encounters with Shinomura.

1. Godzilla was not recognized by Monarch until 1954 and was not seen as a possible assailant because they didn't believe in his existence and believed Shinomura was the sole culprit, if awakening is to be believed.
2. JVR himself stated Godzilla was not the culprit for the USS Lawton attack.
3. Which they decided to do because of his westward trajectory, not because of his previous aggression.
4. If by "Bend over backwards" you mean "take a basic look at the comic and realize it doesn't fit into canon", then yeah. Besides, novelizations are not canon and Aftershock has nothing to imply Awakening is canon.
5. Just because Godzilla is aggressive to other Kaiju does not mean he wouldn't attack a large, weaponized, noisy, and well-armored object moving through his territory. Godzilla also got aggressive with Castle Bravo, and only stood down once they lowered their arms and armor. That's also discounting the fact that, given the secret frequency Emma Russel used in the Orca is that of a human, Godzilla may have perceived the warships and/or their human crews as challengers.

JVR hinted that Lawton destroyed Godzilla

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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby Ivo-goji » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:14 am

Gawdziller1954 wrote:[
Godzilla attacking a large, weaponized, foreign object in his territory isn't unusual, he only backed off of castle bravo after they lowered their arms.

Case in point, Godzilla might possibly have attacked if they fired the Maser Cannons when they saw him, he actually would not attack Castle Bravo merely for being a large weaponized foreign object- just like he never attacked any of the naval vessels he encountered in G14, only even getting close to them when he was pursuing the MUTOs. It's not as if any of those battle ships could have made any show of non-resistance that was visible to Godzilla, in fact several of them opened fire on him during the Golden Gate Bridge scene and Godzilla made a studied show of not retaliating.

This is because it is a major part of the characterization of Monsterverse Godzilla that he is only aggressive towards other kaiju, and any version of the timeline that has him attacking human ships without Shinomura or another MUTO being involved is a plot hole.

Gawdziller1954 wrote:1. Godzilla was not recognized by Monarch until 1954 and was not seen as a possible assailant because they didn't believe in his existence and believed Shinomura was the sole culprit, if awakening is to be believed.

Any sequence of events where the Americans believe the Russians were initially responsible for the attacks on their vessels requires that Godzilla be connected to the attacks in hindsight. You can continue insisting that the chronology of G14 requies these attacks only happened during 1954, it doesn't, and neither KSI nor most of the other Monsterverse materials support your interpretation.

2. JVR himself stated Godzilla was not the culprit for the USS Lawton attack.

Previous poster immediately contradicted your claim, and I can't find any such statement. There is zero argument to be made about KSI's intention because when Randa talks about the attempt to kill Godzilla he shows a photo of the Lawton.

Trying to invent a new monster to attack the Lawton that's neither Godzilla nor Shinomura merely to preserve the idea that Godzilla only attacked any ships in 1954 (as if that detail were somehow important) is an enormous Voodoo Shark.

3. Which they decided to do because of his westward trajectory, not because of his previous aggression.

As if the two motives were somehow mutually exclusive. :roll:

4. If by "Bend over backwards" you mean "take a basic look at the comic and realize it doesn't fit into canon", then yeah.

Only because you've adopted an interpretation of the canon that treats trivial differences in exposition as if they were major disagreements, ignores a reoccurring plot point in a favor of a Voodoo Shark, and contradicts Godzilla's actual on-screen characterization in obvious ways.

5. Just because Godzilla is aggressive to other Kaiju does not mean he wouldn't attack a large, weaponized, noisy, and well-armored object moving through his territory.

Except for that time multiple large weaponized noisy well armored object actually attacked him and he completely ignored them in favor of going after another kaiju.
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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby Olzh26 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:19 am

Godzilla in 2014 did not attack the ships because then he pursued the Muto try not to be distracted. And in 1954, when Godzilla pursued no one and nothing prevented him from attacking a huge noisy who was wandering through its territory.
Last edited by Olzh26 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby Ivo-goji » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:52 pm

Olzh26 wrote:Godzilla in 2014 did not attack the ships because then he pursued the Muto try not to be distracted. And in 1954, when Godzilla pursued no one and nothing prevented him from attacking a huge noisy who was wandering through its territory.

Not buying it. G14 and GKotM go out of their way to emphasize that Godzilla is only interested in keeping hostile kaiju in check, and the characters who argue that he would make unprovoked attacks on humanity are cast as misguided.

But let's take a detailed look at this "And in 1954" business.

G14 says "This is the USS Nautilus. In 1954, the first time a nuclear submarine ever reached the lower depths, it awakened something." Implies the Nautilus awakened Godzilla, but the wording is open to interpretation; the montage at the beginning of the film and how Serizawa the younger says his name suggests Godzilla has appeared throughout human history but was first thought to be a myth.

Awakening: "Yes, I saw the creature. It was Gojira.""Have you learned anything about this second creature, this 'Gojira'?" "It's a legend all throughout these islands. A giant sea creature that lives in the deepest part of the ocean."
The Nautilus is launched specifically to find evidence of Gojira, but returns with nothing conclusive.

KSI: Mentions Godzilla in relation to the existence of multiple ancient species. Monarch has photos of primitive cave art depicting Godzilla and other kaiju.

Monarch Timeline: Says Monarch was tracking multiple MUTOs in 1954.

Operation Lucky Dragon: "...establishing contact with the native islanders, and gathering intelligence on a creature of mythical proportion, the legend known as Gojira. The Monarch team surmised that the atomic signature of our nuclear submarines stirred this Gojira from slumber."
"Sightings of the creature have been on the rise ever since our nuclear fleet discovered it's existence in the extreme ocean depths... [cue picture of Nautilus] Unfortunately our efforts to locate it proved unsuccessful..."


G14: "The Americans first thought that it was the Russians. The Russians thought that it was them."
Doesn't specify when the attacks happened or what the circumstances were like.

Awakening: Shinomura attacks multiple vessels in search of nuclear energy throughout the 40s and 50s, and is attacked in turn by Godzilla on each occasion, leaving witnesses who sometimes see one of the monsters and sometimes see both. Serizawa the Elder takes these accounts seriously but his colleagues are skeptical.

KSI: Monster that's clearly intended be Godzilla attacked the USS Lawton during WWII. Randa's account is treated with skepticism throughout his life.

Monarch Timeline: 1943 - The U.S.S. Lawton Incident - Haunted by the memory of that day, Randa will go on to become one of Monarch's foremost operatives, searching for the truth behind the ancient creatures that exist beneath the surface of the world."

Operation Lucky Dragon: "As you are well aware, over the past months [speaking in 1954] we've lost several vessels in the Pacific region. After confirming the Russians were not behind these attacks, we began tracking the entity responsible, a previously unknown species photographed here [picture of Godzilla]."

G14 says "This animal and others like it consumed this radiation as a food source. As the levels on the surface naturally subsided these creatures adapted to live deeper in the oceans. Further underground. Absorbing radiation from the planet's core. The organization we work for, Monarch, was established in the wake of this discovery." Mentioning Godzilla and others like him inclusively, meaning it could have been founded when Godzilla was identified in 1954, or it could have been founded earlier that when they weren't sure what was out there.

Awakening: Serizawa the Elder recruited to Monarch by Douglas MacArthur in 1946. "We call them MUTOs. Massive Unidentified Terrestrial Organisms. Some of you just recently survived an attack by one." "Welcome to the Monarch Unit!"

KSI: "Harry Truman didn't think so when he funded Monarch in 1946."

Monarch Timeline: 1946 - Monarch Founded - In the aftermath and cover-up of the U.S.S. Lawton Incident, President Truman unofficially establishes "Monarch Unit", a small, off-book research team established to engage in the systematic study of "massive unidentified terrestrial organisms". Privately, many of Truman's allies question the validity of the group's theories and work to keep their existence a secret.

Operation Lucky Dragon: Implies that Monarch was formed after the 1954 Nautilus expedition failed to find Godzilla and was intended to search for and study him specifically.

G14 says Godzilla was identified at some point between the Nautilus expedition and Castle Bravo.

Awakening: Godzilla is identified by the American fleet on Moansta Island in March of 1954.

Operation Lucky Dragon: Godzilla discovered by nuclear fleet "deep in the ocean depths".

Out of all those sources, the most problematic one is the Lucky Dragon featurette. The featurette is the one and only retelling that places all the action in 1954, has Godzilla be the only kaiju active at that time, and has Monarch organized after he was discovered exclusively to study him.

Awakening, KSI, and the Monarch Timeline all agree that Monarch was founded in 1946 to study multiple kaiju that were believed to be responsible for attacks on American vessels, which took place throughout the 40s and 50s.

It's not like Lucky Dragon even contradicts the information in other sources that much, it just jumbles the sequence of events. It sounds like a sanitized version of Awakening more than anything; like Serizawa Sr's skeptical colleagues minimized his years of work with the natives before the submarine team verified Godzilla's existence and glossed over the other kaiju they studied to give the appearance that there were no loose ends. The viewer just doesn't need to take everything they said at face value.
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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby Olzh26 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:35 am

Ivo-goji wrote:
Olzh26 wrote:Godzilla in 2014 did not attack the ships because then he pursued the Muto try not to be distracted. And in 1954, when Godzilla pursued no one and nothing prevented him from attacking a huge noisy who was wandering through its territory.

Not buying it. G14 and GKotM go out of their way to emphasize that Godzilla is only interested in keeping hostile kaiju in check, and the characters who argue that he would make unprovoked attacks on humanity are cast as misguided.

But let's take a detailed look at this "And in 1954" business.

G14 says "This is the USS Nautilus. In 1954, the first time a nuclear submarine ever reached the lower depths, it awakened something." Implies the Nautilus awakened Godzilla, but the wording is open to interpretation; the montage at the beginning of the film and how Serizawa the younger says his name suggests Godzilla has appeared throughout human history but was first thought to be a myth.

Awakening: "Yes, I saw the creature. It was Gojira.""Have you learned anything about this second creature, this 'Gojira'?" "It's a legend all throughout these islands. A giant sea creature that lives in the deepest part of the ocean."
The Nautilus is launched specifically to find evidence of Gojira, but returns with nothing conclusive.

KSI: Mentions Godzilla in relation to the existence of multiple ancient species. Monarch has photos of primitive cave art depicting Godzilla and other kaiju.

Monarch Timeline: Says Monarch was tracking multiple MUTOs in 1954.

Operation Lucky Dragon: "...establishing contact with the native islanders, and gathering intelligence on a creature of mythical proportion, the legend known as Gojira. The Monarch team surmised that the atomic signature of our nuclear submarines stirred this Gojira from slumber."
"Sightings of the creature have been on the rise ever since our nuclear fleet discovered it's existence in the extreme ocean depths... [cue picture of Nautilus] Unfortunately our efforts to locate it proved unsuccessful..."


G14: "The Americans first thought that it was the Russians. The Russians thought that it was them."
Doesn't specify when the attacks happened or what the circumstances were like.

Awakening: Shinomura attacks multiple vessels in search of nuclear energy throughout the 40s and 50s, and is attacked in turn by Godzilla on each occasion, leaving witnesses who sometimes see one of the monsters and sometimes see both. Serizawa the Elder takes these accounts seriously but his colleagues are skeptical.

KSI: Monster that's clearly intended be Godzilla attacked the USS Lawton during WWII. Randa's account is treated with skepticism throughout his life.

Monarch Timeline: 1943 - The U.S.S. Lawton Incident - Haunted by the memory of that day, Randa will go on to become one of Monarch's foremost operatives, searching for the truth behind the ancient creatures that exist beneath the surface of the world."

Operation Lucky Dragon: "As you are well aware, over the past months [speaking in 1954] we've lost several vessels in the Pacific region. After confirming the Russians were not behind these attacks, we began tracking the entity responsible, a previously unknown species photographed here [picture of Godzilla]."

G14 says "This animal and others like it consumed this radiation as a food source. As the levels on the surface naturally subsided these creatures adapted to live deeper in the oceans. Further underground. Absorbing radiation from the planet's core. The organization we work for, Monarch, was established in the wake of this discovery." Mentioning Godzilla and others like him inclusively, meaning it could have been founded when Godzilla was identified in 1954, or it could have been founded earlier that when they weren't sure what was out there.

Awakening: Serizawa the Elder recruited to Monarch by Douglas MacArthur in 1946. "We call them MUTOs. Massive Unidentified Terrestrial Organisms. Some of you just recently survived an attack by one." "Welcome to the Monarch Unit!"

KSI: "Harry Truman didn't think so when he funded Monarch in 1946."

Monarch Timeline: 1946 - Monarch Founded - In the aftermath and cover-up of the U.S.S. Lawton Incident, President Truman unofficially establishes "Monarch Unit", a small, off-book research team established to engage in the systematic study of "massive unidentified terrestrial organisms". Privately, many of Truman's allies question the validity of the group's theories and work to keep their existence a secret.

Operation Lucky Dragon: Implies that Monarch was formed after the 1954 Nautilus expedition failed to find Godzilla and was intended to search for and study him specifically.

G14 says Godzilla was identified at some point between the Nautilus expedition and Castle Bravo.

Awakening: Godzilla is identified by the American fleet on Moansta Island in March of 1954.

Operation Lucky Dragon: Godzilla discovered by nuclear fleet "deep in the ocean depths".

Out of all those sources, the most problematic one is the Lucky Dragon featurette. The featurette is the one and only retelling that places all the action in 1954, has Godzilla be the only kaiju active at that time, and has Monarch organized after he was discovered exclusively to study him.

Awakening, KSI, and the Monarch Timeline all agree that Monarch was founded in 1946 to study multiple kaiju that were believed to be responsible for attacks on American vessels, which took place throughout the 40s and 50s.

It's not like Lucky Dragon even contradicts the information in other sources that much, it just jumbles the sequence of events. It sounds like a sanitized version of Awakening more than anything; like Serizawa Sr's skeptical colleagues minimized his years of work with the natives before the submarine team verified Godzilla's existence and glossed over the other kaiju they studied to give the appearance that there were no loose ends. The viewer just doesn't need to take everything they said at face value.

it was never said that Godzilla would never attack humanity. it all depends on his attitude towards people. if Godzilla considers us a threat he can attack us. the scene in the castle of bravo and the phrase doctor chen at the end of the film confirm this

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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby Gawdziller1954 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Olzh26 wrote:
Gawdziller1954 wrote:
Ivo-goji wrote:Um
Image

Surprising, seeing as it only took me a few reads of Awakening side-by-side to the film and other materials to conclude awakening contradicts MV canon.
Godzilla attacking a large, weaponized, foreign object in his territory isn't unusual, he only backed off of castle bravo after they lowered their arms. Animals attack vehicles in their territory all the time, and just because Godzilla is supposed to violent toward other kaiju doesn't mean he didn't perceive the loud, noise, large, and dangerously-armed foreign objects in his territory to be intruders/challengers.

Added in 9 minutes 10 seconds:
Ivo-goji wrote:Um
Image
That looks like a ship getting attacked to me.

Now he was also pursuing Shinomura when this happened, but (as I've already pointed out many times), no one believed Serizawa the Elder when he said Godzilla was chasing Shinomura the whole time. Monarch only realized Godzilla was attacking ships in hindsight, because at first they thought it was the Russians, but that doesn't mean they realized why he was doing it until after the MUTO incident, which was what confirmed that the two Serizawas were right about Godzilla's instinct towards other kaiju.


Then why did the USS Lawton Incident happen in 1943?


Not after they identified Godzilla and immediately decided to blow him up.


Not really, not unless you bend over backwards to interpret the information in other Monsterverse sources specifically to exclude Awakening.

The people writing the actual material (KotM novelization, Aftershocks) clearly consider Awakening canon.


It takes a fine tooth comb and a significant amount of imagination to arrive at these "contradictions" that allegedly damage the canon so much.

If anything, Awakening solves a major inconsistency in Godzilla's characterization throughout the Monsterverse's history: Why did Godzilla attack human vessels at any point in time if he's supposed to be only violent towards other kaiju? Because those incidents were all encounters with Shinomura.

1. Godzilla was not recognized by Monarch until 1954 and was not seen as a possible assailant because they didn't believe in his existence and believed Shinomura was the sole culprit, if awakening is to be believed.
2. JVR himself stated Godzilla was not the culprit for the USS Lawton attack.
3. Which they decided to do because of his westward trajectory, not because of his previous aggression.
4. If by "Bend over backwards" you mean "take a basic look at the comic and realize it doesn't fit into canon", then yeah. Besides, novelizations are not canon and Aftershock has nothing to imply Awakening is canon.
5. Just because Godzilla is aggressive to other Kaiju does not mean he wouldn't attack a large, weaponized, noisy, and well-armored object moving through his territory. Godzilla also got aggressive with Castle Bravo, and only stood down once they lowered their arms and armor. That's also discounting the fact that, given the secret frequency Emma Russel used in the Orca is that of a human, Godzilla may have perceived the warships and/or their human crews as challengers.

JVR hinted that Lawton destroyed Godzilla

JVR explicitly stated he does not consider the perp to be Godzilla in his interview with Chris55.
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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby UltramanGoji » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:39 am

And the more directly-tied-to-the-film DVD audio commentary says otherwise.
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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby GoWhaleTours » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:16 am

I don’t really think this is even a debate anymore. Whether or not you like how it fits into canon the people in charge of all this have not only confirmed that it is canon several times, but have also reiterated it through its presence at panels, in the official chronology, and through mentions in the main novelization of the newest film.

It’s not really a question of “consideration” anymore.
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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby ebirah_scampi » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:26 pm

Gawdziller1954 wrote:
Olzh26 wrote:
Gawdziller1954 wrote:Surprising, seeing as it only took me a few reads of Awakening side-by-side to the film and other materials to conclude awakening contradicts MV canon.
Godzilla attacking a large, weaponized, foreign object in his territory isn't unusual, he only backed off of castle bravo after they lowered their arms. Animals attack vehicles in their territory all the time, and just because Godzilla is supposed to violent toward other kaiju doesn't mean he didn't perceive the loud, noise, large, and dangerously-armed foreign objects in his territory to be intruders/challengers.

Added in 9 minutes 10 seconds:

1. Godzilla was not recognized by Monarch until 1954 and was not seen as a possible assailant because they didn't believe in his existence and believed Shinomura was the sole culprit, if awakening is to be believed.
2. JVR himself stated Godzilla was not the culprit for the USS Lawton attack.
3. Which they decided to do because of his westward trajectory, not because of his previous aggression.
4. If by "Bend over backwards" you mean "take a basic look at the comic and realize it doesn't fit into canon", then yeah. Besides, novelizations are not canon and Aftershock has nothing to imply Awakening is canon.
5. Just because Godzilla is aggressive to other Kaiju does not mean he wouldn't attack a large, weaponized, noisy, and well-armored object moving through his territory. Godzilla also got aggressive with Castle Bravo, and only stood down once they lowered their arms and armor. That's also discounting the fact that, given the secret frequency Emma Russel used in the Orca is that of a human, Godzilla may have perceived the warships and/or their human crews as challengers.

JVR hinted that Lawton destroyed Godzilla

JVR explicitly stated he does not consider the perp to be Godzilla in his interview with Chris55.



Didn't he say he liked to think it was the Kraken? That would be neat considering it shows up in the novelization.

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Re: Godzilla : Awakening - Do you consider it canon or not?

Postby Gawdziller1954 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:26 pm

ebirah_scampi wrote:
Gawdziller1954 wrote:
Olzh26 wrote:JVR hinted that Lawton destroyed Godzilla

JVR explicitly stated he does not consider the perp to be Godzilla in his interview with Chris55.



Didn't he say he liked to think it was the Kraken? That would be neat considering it shows up in the novelization.

He said it was an Unknown MUTO that he jokingly said was something akin to a "Jordan Vought-Roberts Kraken." The scene he wanted was of Bill Randa escaping the ship while the creature was tearing into it.
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