What if: The MonsterVerse being cancelled

[gottatalktothefake]

Looking at Shin Godzilla from a pure story perspective, of course there's a lot that a sequel could make do with. Godzilla's awakening, the next stage of his evolution, the future of Yaguchi and company, etc.

But looking at it from the perspective of the writers and whether or not they have anything left to say...no, it doesn't really have much else for a sequel. The ending shot of Godzilla's spawn isn't a sequel hook, it's a thematic reminder that humanity is always one second too close to disaster. There hasn't been a single pitch, idea, or interpretation of that ending shot I've seen that has ever changed my mind regarding whether or not the film should get a sequel. It's almost always just people wanting to see the Godzillanoids in action, something that I very much doubt Anno, Higuchi and yes, even Toho would want to showcase.

If they made a movie about the humanoids then it would REALLY be stretching the definition of a Godzilla movie

[G1985]

A bit of a nitpick, but not sure we can use "suit design" for a Godzilla that was portrayed 100% with a CGI model

Let's just say, after seeing the CGI work on his second and third forms, I'm not convinced that every shot of Shin's fourth form was 100% CGI, and leave it at that.

[Vakanai]

Added in 10 minutes 50 seconds:

Shin Godzilla as a franchise is dead. I have no desire to see that version of Godzilla anymore

But the Legendary Godzilla has a lot of potential that needs to be expanded-upon

Not surprising, but I strongly disagree with this - there's a lot of potential for a follow up to Shin. It's only a dead franchise if Toho wants it to be, but there's infinite possibilities of where the story could go from where Shin left off. Whereas for Legendary I'm hard pressed to come up with anything that's not a rehash of the plots we've seen before but with different kaiju and more or less hollow earth stuff (and no, this isn't another swipe at GvK, wanted to make one but this isn't that). Some kaiju poses some kind of threat to earth/balance/Godzilla's "king of the monsters" alpha status, he hunts them down to the ends of the earth, big fight, Godzilla wins. That's literally been the plot of all 3 films now, doubt a 4th will deviate much from it. Legendary's Godzilla is more about doing a basic Hollywood kaiju plot, but with the most beautiful CGI the genre's ever seen and kick ass fight scenes. But they're not experimental, hence why the films don't expand-upon what's come before much. It's why the sequels never deal with the destruction and fall out much from the previous films.

I counter your disagreement with my own disagreement!

And I counter your disagreement with my disagreement with a further disagreement!

I actually don’t really see much else one could do with Shin. Toho’s already been reusing Shin’s foundation with the Anime Trilogy, and SP. Plus, while it would satisfy the folks that want to see more apocalypse Godzilla, I feel repeating that would be just as tiring as “Godzilla maintains balance” if it keeps happening. Hell, I’m already tired of it. I’m fine with it since we at least still have a traditional Godzilla in the Monsterverse, but still.

First, outside them both being similar to Shin's "slow force of nature" characterization, I really don't see how either anime "reuses" Shin's foundation? And it's not like it keeps happening - there's only one (live action) apocalypse Godzilla. We haven't gotten 3. The anime trilogy is post-apocalypse, and Godzilla barely appeared in SP, and comparing those to getting live action films is far from fair.

Speaking of which meanwhile, Legendary still has room they can take Godzilla. He’s been wrecking human life now, so why not have some consequence for that following GvK? I sincerely doubt the events of that movie will be ignored considering how well it did. There have been great ideas too involving Godzilla having to fight an enemy who’s like Biollante. An enemy who’s preserving too much nature, and Godzilla must choose between preserving his kind, or preserving the balance. Theres that Godzilla BC idea that gives us potential new visuals to explore and a whole world to fill in context.

Meanwhile, Shin's changing nature opens up possibilities to further possibilities besides emotionless god of the apocalypse. A future film can have one of those tail guys split off and evolve into another kaiju that comes into conflict with Godzilla once he chemically thaws out. Godzilla could evolve mentally instead of physically to grow a personality to make him like a different character. Another creature from near the same nuclear waste site that gave birth to Godzilla could crawl onto land and attack Godzilla. Godzilla could start becoming unstable and go into meltdown threatening Japan even without attacking. And that's just my limited top of my head ideas. Point is, there's a lot of directions they could take Shin Godzilla if they wanted to, so it's unfair to dismiss him as dead as a franchise. Now, saying it's a franchise you personally aren't interested in, fine, won't hear a peep out of me on that - but acting like he's got no possibilities, no further storytelling potential? I gotta disagree with that. There's all kinds of ways they could follow up on that. Will they? No clue. But that's a different discussion. Even if he was one way in Shin, the way they set it up he could easily become wildly different. He could become more reactive, more aggressive, who knows? But, there is potential.

“Wait, those monsterverse ideas won’t realistically happen!”
Eh. Probably, Probably not. The same way a Shin sequel may either catch the essence of the first, or feel like a dull attempt to recreate it. If we go into the what ifs, or even just differing opinions, it’s hard to say what’s likely to happen, or if it’ll even please anyone.

I personally don't care if they capture the essence of Shin again or not - I actually hope they don't even try to recapture it. My interest is more in the fact that they're likely to do something different in a sequel. As you said, those MonsterVerse ideas realistically won't happen, the MonsterVerse will most likely repeat the same formula as the other 3 MV Godzilla films. Toho on the other hand seems more willing to try risks and experiments with the character right now. So inherently there's more potential to get something different from them. Meanwhile Legendary has found something that, love it or hate it, works for them so we shouldn't expect them to vary it very much for the foreseeable future.

They might attempt to recreate Shin, but there's just as much likelihood they'll do something different with it. But legendary, we can guess that something will threaten earth/balance/Godzilla's gotta be the alpha ego, he'll track it down to the ends of the earth, fight, and win. Maybe a Shin continuation will be a dull attempt to recapture the same lightning in the same bottle like you suggest - rather get another one of those then a fourth film with the same plot, if only because the second time is still fresher than the fourth.

You don’t have to agree with any of these (I don’t expect you to, you wear your “GvK bad” badge a ton.) But still. While I don’t think the Monsterverse is about to go into MCU territory with 4 Phases and many crossovers that last 10 more years, I wouldn’t say it’s got no potential left.

Oh for the love of - I know I hate GvK, but like I said in my post earlier because I know everyone expects it of me, for once this disagreement has nothing to do with me bashing GvK. Yes, I think GvK is bad (it is), doesn't mean I can't argue or disagree on MV stuff without resorting to or being motivated by my hatred of one film. I shouldn't have to say "this isn't about my feelings on GvK" every time, I'm not obsessed with it. Like I said, my argument is about the MonsterVerse having the same plot structure 3 films in a row (and arguably even Kong has the same plot, just with Kong instead of Godzilla and a few more tweaks with the period piece bit). And honestly, as negative as I've become towards MV, I do think there's some potential left - not as much as people here like to speculate, I don't think the ideas here are going to come into play and most movies will continue to follow the same beats as the previous films, but still, potential. My main disagreement is you saying Shin's got no potential left. You're saying of Shin what you think I'm saying of the MonsterVerse.

Added in 3 minutes 12 seconds:

Looking at Shin Godzilla from a pure story perspective, of course there's a lot that a sequel could make do with. Godzilla's awakening, the next stage of his evolution, the future of Yaguchi and company, etc.

But looking at it from the perspective of the writers and whether or not they have anything left to say...no, it doesn't really have much else for a sequel. The ending shot of Godzilla's spawn isn't a sequel hook, it's a thematic reminder that humanity is always one second too close to disaster. There hasn't been a single pitch, idea, or interpretation of that ending shot I've seen that has ever changed my mind regarding whether or not the film should get a sequel. It's almost always just people wanting to see the Godzillanoids in action, something that I very much doubt Anno, Higuchi and yes, even Toho would want to showcase.

If they made a movie about the humanoids then it would REALLY be stretching the definition of a Godzilla movie

I don't think they would, unless to give Godzilla a different enemy to fight besides man. Imagine if the Humanoids turn on their father, who remains "normal form" Godzilla because the chemicals used to freeze him permanently turned off his freaky evolving into different forms ability? Seeing Shin fighting off a small army of final form humanoid Godzillas would be something different.

Added in 2 minutes 19 seconds:

A bit of a nitpick, but not sure we can use "suit design" for a Godzilla that was portrayed 100% with a CGI model

Let's just say, after seeing the CGI work on his second and third forms, I'm not convinced that every shot of Shin's fourth form was 100% CGI, and leave it at that.

I don't know why you're not convinced - Toho was pretty forthcoming and proud about making CGI that looked like a suit, and spoke of how there was a physical puppet-suit that was created but never used. I don't see any reason to believe they were lying. But to each their own.

[Rando Yaguchi]

Let's just say, after seeing the CGI work on his second and third forms, I'm not convinced that every shot of Shin's fourth form was 100% CGI, and leave it at that.

It was 100% CGI, it just improves significantly as the film moves along. Kamata-kun looks mediocre, the third form looks good, and the fourth form looks great.

[Vakanai]

Looking at Shin Godzilla from a pure story perspective, of course there's a lot that a sequel could make do with. Godzilla's awakening, the next stage of his evolution, the future of Yaguchi and company, etc.

But looking at it from the perspective of the writers and whether or not they have anything left to say...no, it doesn't really have much else for a sequel. The ending shot of Godzilla's spawn isn't a sequel hook, it's a thematic reminder that humanity is always one second too close to disaster. There hasn't been a single pitch, idea, or interpretation of that ending shot I've seen that has ever changed my mind regarding whether or not the film should get a sequel. It's almost always just people wanting to see the Godzillanoids in action, something that I very much doubt Anno, Higuchi and yes, even Toho would want to showcase.

To be fair, you or I aren't the ones to speak "from the perspective of the writers and whether or not they have anything left to say" are we? We can't possibly know that. That's up to Anno and Higuchi who made Shin on whether or not they have anything left to say, and they haven't said anything to indicate one way or another on that front. I love to speculate about sequels and directions it could take, but I don't say that's how they should do it or this is what they should want to say. I don't even say that they do have more to say - it's not my place. Nor is it yours to say they don't. We just don't know. So saying there's potential for them to do more and speculating hurts nothing, until or unless they say otherwise either way.

[Dynomy-DX]

Added in 10 minutes 50 seconds:


Not surprising, but I strongly disagree with this - there's a lot of potential for a follow up to Shin. It's only a dead franchise if Toho wants it to be, but there's infinite possibilities of where the story could go from where Shin left off. Whereas for Legendary I'm hard pressed to come up with anything that's not a rehash of the plots we've seen before but with different kaiju and more or less hollow earth stuff (and no, this isn't another swipe at GvK, wanted to make one but this isn't that). Some kaiju poses some kind of threat to earth/balance/Godzilla's "king of the monsters" alpha status, he hunts them down to the ends of the earth, big fight, Godzilla wins. That's literally been the plot of all 3 films now, doubt a 4th will deviate much from it. Legendary's Godzilla is more about doing a basic Hollywood kaiju plot, but with the most beautiful CGI the genre's ever seen and kick ass fight scenes. But they're not experimental, hence why the films don't expand-upon what's come before much. It's why the sequels never deal with the destruction and fall out much from the previous films.

I counter your disagreement with my own disagreement!

And I counter your disagreement with my disagreement with a further disagreement!

I actually don’t really see much else one could do with Shin. Toho’s already been reusing Shin’s foundation with the Anime Trilogy, and SP. Plus, while it would satisfy the folks that want to see more apocalypse Godzilla, I feel repeating that would be just as tiring as “Godzilla maintains balance” if it keeps happening. Hell, I’m already tired of it. I’m fine with it since we at least still have a traditional Godzilla in the Monsterverse, but still.

First, outside them both being similar to Shin's "slow force of nature" characterization, I really don't see how either anime "reuses" Shin's foundation? And it's not like it keeps happening - there's only one (live action) apocalypse Godzilla. We haven't gotten 3. The anime trilogy is post-apocalypse, and Godzilla barely appeared in SP, and comparing those to getting live action films is far from fair.

Speaking of which meanwhile, Legendary still has room they can take Godzilla. He’s been wrecking human life now, so why not have some consequence for that following GvK? I sincerely doubt the events of that movie will be ignored considering how well it did. There have been great ideas too involving Godzilla having to fight an enemy who’s like Biollante. An enemy who’s preserving too much nature, and Godzilla must choose between preserving his kind, or preserving the balance. Theres that Godzilla BC idea that gives us potential new visuals to explore and a whole world to fill in context.

Meanwhile, Shin's changing nature opens up possibilities to further possibilities besides emotionless god of the apocalypse. A future film can have one of those tail guys split off and evolve into another kaiju that comes into conflict with Godzilla once he chemically thaws out. Godzilla could evolve mentally instead of physically to grow a personality to make him like a different character. Another creature from near the same nuclear waste site that gave birth to Godzilla could crawl onto land and attack Godzilla. Godzilla could start becoming unstable and go into meltdown threatening Japan even without attacking. And that's just my limited top of my head ideas. Point is, there's a lot of directions they could take Shin Godzilla if they wanted to, so it's unfair to dismiss him as dead as a franchise. Now, saying it's a franchise you personally aren't interested in, fine, won't hear a peep out of me on that - but acting like he's got no possibilities, no further storytelling potential? I gotta disagree with that. There's all kinds of ways they could follow up on that. Will they? No clue. But that's a different discussion. Even if he was one way in Shin, the way they set it up he could easily become wildly different. He could become more reactive, more aggressive, who knows? But, there is potential.

“Wait, those monsterverse ideas won’t realistically happen!”
Eh. Probably, Probably not. The same way a Shin sequel may either catch the essence of the first, or feel like a dull attempt to recreate it. If we go into the what ifs, or even just differing opinions, it’s hard to say what’s likely to happen, or if it’ll even please anyone.

I personally don't care if they capture the essence of Shin again or not - I actually hope they don't even try to recapture it. My interest is more in the fact that they're likely to do something different in a sequel. As you said, those MonsterVerse ideas realistically won't happen, the MonsterVerse will most likely repeat the same formula as the other 3 MV Godzilla films. Toho on the other hand seems more willing to try risks and experiments with the character right now. So inherently there's more potential to get something different from them. Meanwhile Legendary has found something that, love it or hate it, works for them so we shouldn't expect them to vary it very much for the foreseeable future.

They might attempt to recreate Shin, but there's just as much likelihood they'll do something different with it. But legendary, we can guess that something will threaten earth/balance/Godzilla's gotta be the alpha ego, he'll track it down to the ends of the earth, fight, and win. Maybe a Shin continuation will be a dull attempt to recapture the same lightning in the same bottle like you suggest - rather get another one of those then a fourth film with the same plot, if only because the second time is still fresher than the fourth.

You don’t have to agree with any of these (I don’t expect you to, you wear your “GvK bad” badge a ton.) But still. While I don’t think the Monsterverse is about to go into MCU territory with 4 Phases and many crossovers that last 10 more years, I wouldn’t say it’s got no potential left.

Oh for the love of - I know I hate GvK, but like I said in my post earlier because I know everyone expects it of me, for once this disagreement has nothing to do with me bashing GvK. Yes, I think GvK is bad (it is), doesn't mean I can't argue or disagree on MV stuff without resorting to or being motivated by my hatred of one film. I shouldn't have to say "this isn't about my feelings on GvK" every time, I'm not obsessed with it. Like I said, my argument is about the MonsterVerse having the same plot structure 3 films in a row (and arguably even Kong has the same plot, just with Kong instead of Godzilla and a few more tweaks with the period piece bit). And honestly, as negative as I've become towards MV, I do think there's some potential left - not as much as people here like to speculate, I don't think the ideas here are going to come into play and most movies will continue to follow the same beats as the previous films, but still, potential. My main disagreement is you saying Shin's got no potential left. You're saying of Shin what you think I'm saying of the MonsterVerse..

Referring to the earlier point, most of the Reiwa Godzillas have kind of used similar foundations. Godzilla Ultima has some similar design elements mixed in with the transformations overtime, whereas Earth takes the lumbering god role to its max. He even has smaller Godzillas with Filius, if we go the “he can now release more of himself”. I’ll admit though, grouping them together ain’t the most fair. (I can’t be mean to Ultima, he’s pretty sick) but in general they haven’t deviated too much from the recent foundations. While I wouldn’t call them one and the same, they aren’t all that different. But I’m completely missing my point here.

Though mind you, I didn’t outright say “Shin has zero potential in a follow up”. I just don’t see much one could do afterwards. That said, i believe that any idea can work with the right writer and the right team behind it. So I’m well aware I could eat my words come tomorrow’s surprise announcement of Shin Godzilla Raids Again. Hell, I could be absolutely floored it they resolve a lot of my personal issues with Shin as a whole! I just don’t think that, with the directions that Toho’s currently making, that it’ll go anywhere beyond more apocalypse Godzilla. Maybe they’ll go nuts with the humanoids and do stuff with that? But I dunno. It’s not something I think I’d really want in a sequel, personally. I’d kinda prefer a more traditional take on Godzilla if Toho were to go full speed ahead with a franchise. Or at the very least, a solid middle ground. But hey. I welcome surprises if a future take gets me hooked.

I guess to make my point more clear, while I don’t deny Shin has potential, between that or a chance to delve further into MV Godzilla’s lore or personality (seriously, I know it’s simple, but I’ve been loving the personality the monsters have had in this saga), I’d rather take my chances with a new MonsterVerse entry. That though is where it becomes more subjective. As you said, you’d rather see another crack at Shin rather than see another “Godzilla does a hunt and kill”. And that’s fair. Honestly, it speaks to the versatility of the franchise that both movies can have their dedicated fans. But my point remains. At this point, it really all comes down to preference.

Also, don’t take the GvK comment too seriously. I was just making a funny. :b

[Vakanai]

Referring to the earlier point, most of the Reiwa Godzillas have kind of used similar foundations. Godzilla Ultima has some similar design elements mixed in with the transformations overtime, whereas Earth takes the lumbering god role to its max. He even has smaller Godzillas with Filius, if we go the “he can now release more of himself”. I’ll admit though, grouping them together ain’t the most fair. (I can’t be mean to Ultima, he’s pretty sick) but in general they haven’t deviated too much from the recent foundations. While I wouldn’t call them one and the same, they aren’t all that different. But I’m completely missing my point here.

While Ultima shares the transformation aspect, I don't think the designs are particularly similar beyond being recognizably Godzilla - in fact, I'd say there's more similarities between Ultima and MV than Ultima and Shin as far as looks are concerned. Ultima wasn't even all that slow or particularly spammy from what I can remember of that too brief battle with JJ. It's biggest similarities to Shin are those snippets of it blasting those skyscrapers, which were an obvious Shin reference, and the level of threat it posed to Tokyo and the world, but they were totally different beasts in how they operated (physically and such, can't really speak of personality - can't tell you if Ultima was emotionless like Shin or aggressive like MV Goji, he just didn't get the screen-time).

Earth meanwhile might have taken the lumbering god role to the max, but also differed a lot. He didn't evolve other than just growing bigger in 20,000 years, and he wasn't emotionless. He definitely had a bit more of an animalistic bent - not as much as Legendary's, but he reacted to things, seemed to like napping, had some moments of distress when caught by Mechagodzilla City and Ghidorah. He also doesn't just walk but goes to places with intent and purpose. Add the post-apocalyptic setting and it's very different take than Shin.

I think people are exaggerating the similarities of Japan's 3 Reiwa Godzillas. Beyond Ultima's transformations and heat beams melting chunks of skyscrapers, and Earth being lumbering and slow and having a mini-version like Shin hinted might happen, there's really not much in common between them all. Honestly, the biggest commonality among them isn't Godzilla himself/s but how all 3 were in the most talky talky talky projects to date. Sure, the themes of the talky talky might've had a different bent, Shin being more political (and sci-fi babble), the trilogy being more philosophical (and sci-fi babble), and the series being more sci-fi babble (and more sci-fi babble!), but the experience of sitting through a lot of talky talky was similar. At least Shin was able to pace it better and deliver on the destruction aspects more than the animes did. But that just seems to be what's in vogue in Japan right now vs Legendary's more dumb action approach, so I'm not going to hold that against the actual bits with Godzilla in it.

Though mind you, I didn’t outright say “Shin has zero potential in a follow up”. I just don’t see much one could do afterwards. That said, i believe that any idea can work with the right writer and the right team behind it. So I’m well aware I could eat my words come tomorrow’s surprise announcement of Shin Godzilla Raids Again. Hell, I could be absolutely floored it they resolve a lot of my personal issues with Shin as a whole! I just don’t think that, with the directions that Toho’s currently making, that it’ll go anywhere beyond more apocalypse Godzilla. Maybe they’ll go nuts with the humanoids and do stuff with that? But I dunno. It’s not something I think I’d really want in a sequel, personally. I’d kinda prefer a more traditional take on Godzilla if Toho were to go full speed ahead with a franchise. Or at the very least, a solid middle ground. But hey. I welcome surprises if a future take gets me hooked.

I think the "apocalypse" Godzilla is a bit unfair - it's not like MV's Godzilla has changed it up much himself in his 3 movies, as I've already laid out the plot he's followed in every one to date. You might prefer what MV Goji has done more than Toho's recent ones, but it's not fair to accuse them of doing the same thing every time when Legendary has also done the same thing every time. At least the plots surrounding the three apocalypse Gojis have all varied with their own distinct beats from one another.

I guess to make my point more clear, while I don’t deny Shin has potential, between that or a chance to delve further into MV Godzilla’s lore or personality (seriously, I know it’s simple, but I’ve been loving the personality the monsters have had in this saga), I’d rather take my chances with a new MonsterVerse entry. That though is where it becomes more subjective. As you said, you’d rather see another crack at Shin rather than see another “Godzilla does a hunt and kill”. And that’s fair. Honestly, it speaks to the versatility of the franchise that both movies can have their dedicated fans. But my point remains. At this point, it really all comes down to preference.

Maybe, and I won't argue that - but that's a different point than you had before. Before you said Shin was a dead end, which I have to disagree with. Stating you just prefer MV's between the two is fine. I'm different - like you said, MV's personality is simple (and I'd argue in the case of GvK, inconsistent and more bullying/evil/murderous than previously, but I already have argued that and don't want to argue it again, just a note I don't find it a personality that's consistent film to film), nor am I interested in the "lore" - all the lore is is Hollow Earth (which I personally didn't like the execution of once we finally saw it), and prehistoric alpha (and I am sooooo over the alpha stuff at this point). So, not interested in the inconsistent personality, nor the execution of the lore, all Legendary has going for it for me is the design (my favorite) and the action (holy crap the action). Which, just isn't enough for me. So between that and whatever Toho might do, I'd rather take my chance on Toho. Toho surprises me. I just hate that we haven't gotten another live action film from them in over half a decade. Like you said, at this point it's just preference.

Also, don’t take the GvK comment too seriously. I was just making a funny. :b

Fair enough - I'm just a bit worried I'm dismissed as that "GvK hater" now. I've still got views and opinions on the MV beyond my stance on that movie.

[king_ghidorah]

Godzilla’s personality in GvK is more reminiscent of …the traditional Japanese take on Godzilla.

He’s not Gamera. He’s not some benign protector who cares about the order of things. That’s all Serizawa’s interpretation of Godzilla and it’s about as valid as saying a grizzly bear preserves the natural balance of the forest. It’s true, to an extent, but it’s not like the bear is thinking of the concept of balance and going about his business in this zen like way.

In much the same way, Godzilla is a bit of a prick. He’s a territorial alpha predator which is keeps with the decades of films before this no less. To me, that’s way more interesting than something that is purely good or evil. Godzilla may do good things, but he’s going to go about it in a dickish way. That devil may care attitude is essential to the character and GvK is the only one of the MV films to truly nail that aspect of his personality.

My favorite interpretations of Godzilla mirror this sort of duality. GvKG 91 and G2K for instance….right after saving the day, Godzilla turns around and attacks humanity. Going back to when I was a kid, this is my favorite aspect of the character. The anti-hero.

And GvK is the MV film that finally got it right in my opinion.

[Dynomy-DX]

Referring to the earlier point, most of the Reiwa Godzillas have kind of used similar foundations. Godzilla Ultima has some similar design elements mixed in with the transformations overtime, whereas Earth takes the lumbering god role to its max. He even has smaller Godzillas with Filius, if we go the “he can now release more of himself”. I’ll admit though, grouping them together ain’t the most fair. (I can’t be mean to Ultima, he’s pretty sick) but in general they haven’t deviated too much from the recent foundations. While I wouldn’t call them one and the same, they aren’t all that different. But I’m completely missing my point here.

While Ultima shares the transformation aspect, I don't think the designs are particularly similar beyond being recognizably Godzilla - in fact, I'd say there's more similarities between Ultima and MV than Ultima and Shin as far as looks are concerned. Ultima wasn't even all that slow or particularly spammy from what I can remember of that too brief battle with JJ. It's biggest similarities to Shin are those snippets of it blasting those skyscrapers, which were an obvious Shin reference, and the level of threat it posed to Tokyo and the world, but they were totally different beasts in how they operated (physically and such, can't really speak of personality - can't tell you if Ultima was emotionless like Shin or aggressive like MV Goji, he just didn't get the screen-time).

Earth meanwhile might have taken the lumbering god role to the max, but also differed a lot. He didn't evolve other than just growing bigger in 20,000 years, and he wasn't emotionless. He definitely had a bit more of an animalistic bent - not as much as Legendary's, but he reacted to things, seemed to like napping, had some moments of distress when caught by Mechagodzilla City and Ghidorah. He also doesn't just walk but goes to places with intent and purpose. Add the post-apocalyptic setting and it's very different take than Shin.

I think people are exaggerating the similarities of Japan's 3 Reiwa Godzillas. Beyond Ultima's transformations and heat beams melting chunks of skyscrapers, and Earth being lumbering and slow and having a mini-version like Shin hinted might happen, there's really not much in common between them all. Honestly, the biggest commonality among them isn't Godzilla himself/s but how all 3 were in the most talky talky talky projects to date. Sure, the themes of the talky talky might've had a different bent, Shin being more political (and sci-fi babble), the trilogy being more philosophical (and sci-fi babble), and the series being more sci-fi babble (and more sci-fi babble!), but the experience of sitting through a lot of talky talky was similar. At least Shin was able to pace it better and deliver on the destruction aspects more than the animes did. But that just seems to be what's in vogue in Japan right now vs Legendary's more dumb action approach, so I'm not going to hold that against the actual bits with Godzilla in it.

Though mind you, I didn’t outright say “Shin has zero potential in a follow up”. I just don’t see much one could do afterwards. That said, i believe that any idea can work with the right writer and the right team behind it. So I’m well aware I could eat my words come tomorrow’s surprise announcement of Shin Godzilla Raids Again. Hell, I could be absolutely floored it they resolve a lot of my personal issues with Shin as a whole! I just don’t think that, with the directions that Toho’s currently making, that it’ll go anywhere beyond more apocalypse Godzilla. Maybe they’ll go nuts with the humanoids and do stuff with that? But I dunno. It’s not something I think I’d really want in a sequel, personally. I’d kinda prefer a more traditional take on Godzilla if Toho were to go full speed ahead with a franchise. Or at the very least, a solid middle ground. But hey. I welcome surprises if a future take gets me hooked.

I think the "apocalypse" Godzilla is a bit unfair - it's not like MV's Godzilla has changed it up much himself in his 3 movies, as I've already laid out the plot he's followed in every one to date. You might prefer what MV Goji has done more than Toho's recent ones, but it's not fair to accuse them of doing the same thing every time when Legendary has also done the same thing every time. At least the plots surrounding the three apocalypse Gojis have all varied with their own distinct beats from one another.

I guess to make my point more clear, while I don’t deny Shin has potential, between that or a chance to delve further into MV Godzilla’s lore or personality (seriously, I know it’s simple, but I’ve been loving the personality the monsters have had in this saga), I’d rather take my chances with a new MonsterVerse entry. That though is where it becomes more subjective. As you said, you’d rather see another crack at Shin rather than see another “Godzilla does a hunt and kill”. And that’s fair. Honestly, it speaks to the versatility of the franchise that both movies can have their dedicated fans. But my point remains. At this point, it really all comes down to preference.

Maybe, and I won't argue that - but that's a different point than you had before. Before you said Shin was a dead end, which I have to disagree with. Stating you just prefer MV's between the two is fine. I'm different - like you said, MV's personality is simple (and I'd argue in the case of GvK, inconsistent and more bullying/evil/murderous than previously, but I already have argued that and don't want to argue it again, just a note I don't find it a personality that's consistent film to film), nor am I interested in the "lore" - all the lore is is Hollow Earth (which I personally didn't like the execution of once we finally saw it), and prehistoric alpha (and I am sooooo over the alpha stuff at this point). So, not interested in the inconsistent personality, nor the execution of the lore, all Legendary has going for it for me is the design (my favorite) and the action (holy crap the action). Which, just isn't enough for me. So between that and whatever Toho might do, I'd rather take my chance on Toho. Toho surprises me. I just hate that we haven't gotten another live action film from them in over half a decade. Like you said, at this point it's just preference.

Also, don’t take the GvK comment too seriously. I was just making a funny. :b

Fair enough - I'm just a bit worried I'm dismissed as that "GvK hater" now. I've still got views and opinions on the MV beyond my stance on that movie.

Personally I see Ultima having more in common with Shin. Namely due to the larger jaws, long tail, and bigger legs. The beam scene is another big pointer tho. I think he gets more moments that feel like Legendary’s take? But due to his behavior and overall scenes, I feel there’s more of a Shin basis at the end of the day.

I won’t argue that the plots are different. They are, and there’s not a lot of feasible ways one could connect the three Reiwa properties and go “Yep, you could mistake them for each other.” But to me, it’s a matter of how they feel. Yes, the three other takes are doing their own things, but to me it just sort of feels like “another apocalypse Godzilla”. The human drama tends to be different, with some working better than others. But they end up fighting a monster who’s ultimately more of a symbolic representation rather than a creature with his own agency and showings of his personality. And to clarify. That is not a bad thing. Godzilla being treated as a more ominous force of nature isn’t a point against him. It speaks to the range this character (and series in general) can maintain. Godzilla has always had this kind of flexibility with his character, I just personally prefer the takes where he’s got moments of characterization and seems to feel a part of the world with the way he interacts with the environment or the challenges tossed his way. To put it simply, I feel more invested in an Anti-Hero/Protagonist Godzilla than an Antagonist Godzilla that will mostly serve to be a foreboding obstacle rather than a creature that shows signs of character. Once again. Preference.

Again though, I didn’t outright say Shin hit a dead end. I personally don’t see where else one could go. I’m not trying to objectively state how Shin has reached its peak and has nowhere left to go. This is all just me putting my opinion out there. Like you said, Toho can surprise. I could eat my words easily if Toho reveals a new take on Godzilla that captures what I like about the Monsterverse version, but with writing on par with Shin or Singular Point. (Maybe less technobabble than the latter but the point remains!) At the moment though, I’m preferring Legendary’s more traditional take. Which, as we said, just becomes a talk about pure preference.

[Vakanai]

Godzilla’s personality in GvK is more reminiscent of …the traditional Japanese take on Godzilla.

Which would be fine if he had it in the previous two movies. But he didn't and that's what bugs me so much about it (and some fans try to say it was all consistent with the previous films, but it wasn't, not to me).

While I would have always had some issues with GvK, I think I could have liked it if it was in a vacuum, if the rest of the MV didn't exist. But it was the third film in the series and went against what went before (my opinion).

And GvK is the MV film that finally got it right in my opinion.

Not surprising, but agree to disagree. It might have gotten it right if it was the first film. But following two films that contradict it, it stands to reason it was the first film to get it wrong. You like it because it finally gave you the type of Godzilla you wanted all along - I hate it because it tore apart the Godzilla the other films had set up all along.

Added in 17 minutes 32 seconds:

Personally I see Ultima having more in common with Shin. Namely due to the larger jaws, long tail, and bigger legs. The beam scene is another big pointer tho. I think he gets more moments that feel like Legendary’s take? But due to his behavior and overall scenes, I feel there’s more of a Shin basis at the end of the day.

See, you notice the jaws and tail, but to me what stands out is the overall outline and shape, and that's much closer to Legendary's take than Shin to me. Add the more natural and quicker movements/motion and the more reactive personality, and while the Shin elements are undeniable it just feels like a take closer in spirit to Legendary's.

I won’t argue that the plots are different. They are, and there’s not a lot of feasible ways one could connect the three Reiwa properties and go “Yep, you could mistake them for each other.” But to me, it’s a matter of how they feel. Yes, the three other takes are doing their own things, but to me it just sort of feels like “another apocalypse Godzilla”. The human drama tends to be different, with some working better than others. But they end up fighting a monster who’s ultimately more of a symbolic representation rather than a creature with his own agency and showings of his personality. And to clarify. That is not a bad thing. Godzilla being treated as a more ominous force of nature isn’t a point against him. It speaks to the range this character (and series in general) can maintain. Godzilla has always had this kind of flexibility with his character, I just personally prefer the takes where he’s got moments of characterization and seems to feel a part of the world with the way he interacts with the environment or the challenges tossed his way. To put it simply, I feel more invested in an Anti-Hero/Protagonist Godzilla than an Antagonist Godzilla that will mostly serve to be a foreboding obstacle rather than a creature that shows signs of character. Once again. Preference.

I think that's the difference though, where we differ. You prefer Legendary's take because you prefer how they actually handle Godzilla's personality and "character", no matter how simple and inconsistent it is. Whereas I'm sort of neutral on the "he's just an animal" personality and straight up turned off by the inconsistency (GvK doesn't behave like the kaiju in '14 and KotM - he was not imo a protagonist but an antagonist, which is jarring when it's supposed to be the same character). Not being attracted any to how Legendary handles the character as a character, what appeals to me then next is how they handle him in story - and Toho's stories appeal to me more than anything Legendary has done.

Again though, I didn’t outright say Shin hit a dead end. I personally don’t see where else one could go. I’m not trying to objectively state how Shin has reached its peak and has nowhere left to go. This is all just me putting my opinion out there. Like you said, Toho can surprise. I could eat my words easily if Toho reveals a new take on Godzilla that captures what I like about the Monsterverse version, but with writing on par with Shin or Singular Point. (Maybe less technobabble than the latter but the point remains!) At the moment though, I’m preferring Legendary’s more traditional take. Which, as we said, just becomes a talk about pure preference.

I can see half a dozen directions they could go, and would be interested in whatever direction Toho or Anno or Higuchi would take it. And I'd rather you not eat your hat - I DON'T want Toho to even attempt to capture what you like about the Monsterverse version. After all, that's what the Monsterverse version is for! Just like how you probably don't want Legendary capturing what I like about Shin. Toho and Legendary work by being the opposites of each other and doing their own thing, not capturing what the other is doing. I just want Toho to make live action movies again. And to have less technobabble. Definitely less technobabble.

[Dynomy-DX]

Personally I see Ultima having more in common with Shin. Namely due to the larger jaws, long tail, and bigger legs. The beam scene is another big pointer tho. I think he gets more moments that feel like Legendary’s take? But due to his behavior and overall scenes, I feel there’s more of a Shin basis at the end of the day.

See, you notice the jaws and tail, but to me what stands out is the overall outline and shape, and that's much closer to Legendary's take than Shin to me. Add the more natural and quicker movements/motion and the more reactive personality, and while the Shin elements are undeniable it just feels like a take closer in spirit to Legendary's.

I won’t argue that the plots are different. They are, and there’s not a lot of feasible ways one could connect the three Reiwa properties and go “Yep, you could mistake them for each other.” But to me, it’s a matter of how they feel. Yes, the three other takes are doing their own things, but to me it just sort of feels like “another apocalypse Godzilla”. The human drama tends to be different, with some working better than others. But they end up fighting a monster who’s ultimately more of a symbolic representation rather than a creature with his own agency and showings of his personality. And to clarify. That is not a bad thing. Godzilla being treated as a more ominous force of nature isn’t a point against him. It speaks to the range this character (and series in general) can maintain. Godzilla has always had this kind of flexibility with his character, I just personally prefer the takes where he’s got moments of characterization and seems to feel a part of the world with the way he interacts with the environment or the challenges tossed his way. To put it simply, I feel more invested in an Anti-Hero/Protagonist Godzilla than an Antagonist Godzilla that will mostly serve to be a foreboding obstacle rather than a creature that shows signs of character. Once again. Preference.

I think that's the difference though, where we differ. You prefer Legendary's take because you prefer how they actually handle Godzilla's personality and "character", no matter how simple and inconsistent it is. Whereas I'm sort of neutral on the "he's just an animal" personality and straight up turned off by the inconsistency (GvK doesn't behave like the kaiju in '14 and KotM - he was not imo a protagonist but an antagonist, which is jarring when it's supposed to be the same character). Not being attracted any to how Legendary handles the character as a character, what appeals to me then next is how they handle him in story - and Toho's stories appeal to me more than anything Legendary has done.

Again though, I didn’t outright say Shin hit a dead end. I personally don’t see where else one could go. I’m not trying to objectively state how Shin has reached its peak and has nowhere left to go. This is all just me putting my opinion out there. Like you said, Toho can surprise. I could eat my words easily if Toho reveals a new take on Godzilla that captures what I like about the Monsterverse version, but with writing on par with Shin or Singular Point. (Maybe less technobabble than the latter but the point remains!) At the moment though, I’m preferring Legendary’s more traditional take. Which, as we said, just becomes a talk about pure preference.

I can see half a dozen directions they could go, and would be interested in whatever direction Toho or Anno or Higuchi would take it. And I'd rather you not eat your hat - I DON'T want Toho to even attempt to capture what you like about the Monsterverse version. After all, that's what the Monsterverse version is for! Just like how you probably don't want Legendary capturing what I like about Shin. Toho and Legendary work by being the opposites of each other and doing their own thing, not capturing what the other is doing. I just want Toho to make live action movies again. And to have less technobabble. Definitely less technobabble.

You know what? All fair points. Just as mentioned before, I think the biggest strength of Godzilla as a franchise is just how flexible it is, and how it has multiple ways to please an audience. If someone wants the deeper and more symbolic stories, the recent Reiwa movies can scratch that itch. Vice versa, for those who want a more traditional, if not more action focused take on the story, the Monsterverse has that covered.

For what it’s worth, it’s actually super interesting to see other perspectives on the matter!

[Vakanai]

Personally I see Ultima having more in common with Shin. Namely due to the larger jaws, long tail, and bigger legs. The beam scene is another big pointer tho. I think he gets more moments that feel like Legendary’s take? But due to his behavior and overall scenes, I feel there’s more of a Shin basis at the end of the day.

See, you notice the jaws and tail, but to me what stands out is the overall outline and shape, and that's much closer to Legendary's take than Shin to me. Add the more natural and quicker movements/motion and the more reactive personality, and while the Shin elements are undeniable it just feels like a take closer in spirit to Legendary's.

I won’t argue that the plots are different. They are, and there’s not a lot of feasible ways one could connect the three Reiwa properties and go “Yep, you could mistake them for each other.” But to me, it’s a matter of how they feel. Yes, the three other takes are doing their own things, but to me it just sort of feels like “another apocalypse Godzilla”. The human drama tends to be different, with some working better than others. But they end up fighting a monster who’s ultimately more of a symbolic representation rather than a creature with his own agency and showings of his personality. And to clarify. That is not a bad thing. Godzilla being treated as a more ominous force of nature isn’t a point against him. It speaks to the range this character (and series in general) can maintain. Godzilla has always had this kind of flexibility with his character, I just personally prefer the takes where he’s got moments of characterization and seems to feel a part of the world with the way he interacts with the environment or the challenges tossed his way. To put it simply, I feel more invested in an Anti-Hero/Protagonist Godzilla than an Antagonist Godzilla that will mostly serve to be a foreboding obstacle rather than a creature that shows signs of character. Once again. Preference.

I think that's the difference though, where we differ. You prefer Legendary's take because you prefer how they actually handle Godzilla's personality and "character", no matter how simple and inconsistent it is. Whereas I'm sort of neutral on the "he's just an animal" personality and straight up turned off by the inconsistency (GvK doesn't behave like the kaiju in '14 and KotM - he was not imo a protagonist but an antagonist, which is jarring when it's supposed to be the same character). Not being attracted any to how Legendary handles the character as a character, what appeals to me then next is how they handle him in story - and Toho's stories appeal to me more than anything Legendary has done.

Again though, I didn’t outright say Shin hit a dead end. I personally don’t see where else one could go. I’m not trying to objectively state how Shin has reached its peak and has nowhere left to go. This is all just me putting my opinion out there. Like you said, Toho can surprise. I could eat my words easily if Toho reveals a new take on Godzilla that captures what I like about the Monsterverse version, but with writing on par with Shin or Singular Point. (Maybe less technobabble than the latter but the point remains!) At the moment though, I’m preferring Legendary’s more traditional take. Which, as we said, just becomes a talk about pure preference.

I can see half a dozen directions they could go, and would be interested in whatever direction Toho or Anno or Higuchi would take it. And I'd rather you not eat your hat - I DON'T want Toho to even attempt to capture what you like about the Monsterverse version. After all, that's what the Monsterverse version is for! Just like how you probably don't want Legendary capturing what I like about Shin. Toho and Legendary work by being the opposites of each other and doing their own thing, not capturing what the other is doing. I just want Toho to make live action movies again. And to have less technobabble. Definitely less technobabble.

You know what? All fair points. Just as mentioned before, I think the biggest strength of Godzilla as a franchise is just how flexible it is, and how it has multiple ways to please an audience. If someone wants the deeper and more symbolic stories, the recent Reiwa movies can scratch that itch. Vice versa, for those who want a more traditional, if not more action focused take on the story, the Monsterverse has that covered.

For what it’s worth, it’s actually super interesting to see other perspectives on the matter!

Here's hoping that whether Reiwa or Legendary, we both get more Godzilla content we can both love - currently both studios have managed to produce two of my favorites (2014, Shin), and my most hated (anime trilogy, GvK). Hopefully the future will provide more of the former and fewer of the later. Maybe my next favorite will come from Legendary (doubtful, they've seem to have decided on a direction and take that doesn't appeal to me - but you never know, just keep Wingard away and make no mention of GvK at all ever and I could be won back), maybe you will be surprised and find Toho's next project the best thing ever. Or we can both be disappointed with both's offerings. We can only know what we've liked, disliked, loved, and hated to date - the future is uncertain.

Also, I think you have me wrong - I don't care that Shin was "deeper" or "symbolic", I just thought the plot was good and sensible, the pacing was nice, the tone was great, and the destruction grand. I'm not some super serious person, really.