Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby King of the Monsters » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:46 pm

eabaker wrote:"In altered form," though, would mean that it's not actually the movie as it was made that exists in GMK's backstory.

The same thing applies to Godzilla (1954) in most of the Millennium continuities though too. Some small detail is altered in how the film occurred but it is still considered canon, like in GxM how the Oxygen Destroyer was never used and in GxMG how Godzilla's skeleton remained. With G98 existing in the GMK continuity the only detail altered is that it is retconned into existing in the same universe as G54 and GMK even though the original intent was that it existed all by itself. It's still officially considered to take place in the GMK timeline, and it also simultaneously exists in a timeline all by itself, just as G54 exists in several different continuities.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby eabaker » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:02 pm

King of the Monsters wrote:
eabaker wrote:"In altered form," though, would mean that it's not actually the movie as it was made that exists in GMK's backstory.

The same thing applies to Godzilla (1954) in most of the Millennium continuities though too. Some small detail is altered in how the film occurred but it is still considered canon, like in GxM how the Oxygen Destroyer was never used and in GxMG how Godzilla's skeleton remained. With G98 existing in the GMK continuity the only detail altered is that it is retconned into existing in the same universe as G54 and GMK even though the original intent was that it existed all by itself. It's still officially considered to take place in the GMK timeline, and it also simultaneously exists in a timeline all by itself, just as G54 exists in several different continuities.


"This movie, but with details altered" is no longer "this movie," it is simply a hypothetical nearly identical movie.

So, yeah, in GxM, something really close to the events of the original film happened, but it is not exactly the original film that exists in that movie's backstory, but a variation on it.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:17 pm

One thing I think that is strange is how well this film holds up even after KOTM. It`s an easy film to compare KOTM to because the monster roster is really similar. Ordinarily, I`m against anachronistic comparisons, but I think this is a good time. It`s difficult comparing KOTM to something like GTTHM due to nostalgia and age. It`s also really hard comparing KOTM to things like 54, or Godzilla vs. Biollante because those are completely different films.

Godzilla in GMK is what Ghidorah should have been in KOTM. While MV Ghidorah is legitimately terrifying and powerful, other then the brief shots of DC, and the end fight, we don`t get a true sense of destruction the monster causes. With GMK Goji, we get heavy destruction, and a rampage that is quickly shown throughout the film. The film constantly shows that Godzilla as being a legitimately horrifying presence. We also get shown more varieties of weapons and monsters thrown at that Godzilla; and the humans play a more proactive role in that Godzilla`s demise.

While I really liked all the individual personality and quirks they gave the monsters through CGI, I also couldn`t help but wonder if the action in KOTM is much about the same as that in KOTM. The Baragon fight has just as much action as the Antarctica Fight, and hey, there`s less cutaways! It`s also simple, and less "epic" but you get a clearer sense of whats going on. And hey, when Godzilla and KG fight underwater in GMK you can actually tell what`s going on! I think the final fight in KOTM is really fantastic, one of the best in the series, but I think that GMK did a better job at integrating Mothra into the fight; especially when she pretty much plays the same role.

I also think I prefer the fantastical element applied to Godzilla and the other kaiju then the ones in KOTM. Mothra and Ghidorah are treated with such mystique and beauty. While the KOTM Mothra hatching scene is very pretty, its also way too quick and really doesn`t linger on Mothra. Mothra in KOTM had to constantly be glowing; they couldn`t just have a shot of Mothra flying over the city calmly. Likewise, while there`s a bunch of really great shots with Ghidorah on the volcano, or the shots with Godzilla at the end. But I think, despite the primitive CGI; the shot of Ghidorah spreading his wings, is just as magical and awesome. It also has more oomph to it because the entire film isn`t composed of just epic shots.

Godzilla and the other monsters also directly interact with the characters just as much in GMK as KOTM.

And GMK has better written characters. I`ve seen a lot of people talk about the generic family dynamic in KOTM. While it`s still a tad generic, I do really appreciate the dynamic between Yuri and her father. It does well at comparing (in a round about way) older imperialistic Japanese Types, to the younger youth generation, and shows a lot of strife in the generational gap. There`s a lot of small scenes that really emphasize this, like Yuri getting drunk and having a small conversation with her dad while he makes her coffee the next day when she`s hung over. There`s a lot of discussion about her job, and her dads disapproval. But still the Admiral never comes off as hateful towards her, and clearly loves his daughter. It`s a more natural dynamic then,"SURPRISE YOUR MOM IS AN ECO-TERRORIST".

KOTM still has a lot of great things going for it; I think the Rodan scene is one of the best, and there`s a lot going for it. But considering GMK was made on a budget of 10 million, and KOTM was 160 million, I can`t help but appreciate that it shows that Toho definitely can make magical Godzilla films and that big budget Hollywood extravaganzas can`t just make a film good.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby eabaker » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:25 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:There`s a lot of small scenes that really emphasize this, like Yuri getting drunk and having a small conversation with her dad while he makes her coffee the next day when she`s hung over.


GMK: We need to demonstrate something about this character and her relationships. Let's have a scene where she gets drunk and then deal with the repercussions of that!

KotM: We need to demonstrate something about this character and his relationships. Let's just have him tell some people that he drank a lot for awhile.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:53 pm

eabaker wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:There`s a lot of small scenes that really emphasize this, like Yuri getting drunk and having a small conversation with her dad while he makes her coffee the next day when she`s hung over.


GMK: We need to demonstrate something about this character and her relationships. Let's have a scene where she gets drunk and then deal with the repercussions of that!

KotM: We need to demonstrate something about this character and his relationships. Let's just have him tell some people that he drank a lot for awhile.

It's pretty much night and day. I also like how the themes in GMK were shown throughout the story all the way to the end, while KOTM just had that one scene where everything is told to us.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby daveblackeye15 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:17 pm

I really don't think we need a flashback of Mark getting blind drunk and Madison has to get herself ready for school or something. I mean I didn't get the impression Yuri was an alcoholic that was always getting drunk like that. It seemed more humorous and still highlighted some tension between them, stern military dad and outgoing, inventive investigator.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby eabaker » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:42 pm

No, you don't need a flashback of Mark getting blind drunk. Who suggested any such thing? What we said was that characterization should be conveyed through behavior, rather than through exposition.
Last edited by eabaker on Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby Infinite Hollywood » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:33 am

Ivo-goji wrote:I dunno, GMK's premise is that the events of G54 have been forgotten to the point that some of the younger generation consider Godzilla an urban legend, if that were literally the case than it's possible the Tristar film played out identically in GMK's timeline. People in Japan aren't certain if Godzilla ever existed and people in America have almost never heard of him; thus the American characters' reactions to encountering Zilla.


This.

I mean, GMK's whole premise is that basically people forgot Godzilla's attack.

So it's certainly possible that Tristar Godzilla's timeline has the same issue.

And then GMK happens.

Doesn't seem hard to connect the three, IMO.

Obviously it was just meant as a throwaway line to poke fun, but if you rationalize it, based on how the people react to things in GMK, you can stitch the three together without having to do any heavy fanon lifting.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:50 pm

Infinite Hollywood wrote:
Ivo-goji wrote:I dunno, GMK's premise is that the events of G54 have been forgotten to the point that some of the younger generation consider Godzilla an urban legend, if that were literally the case than it's possible the Tristar film played out identically in GMK's timeline. People in Japan aren't certain if Godzilla ever existed and people in America have almost never heard of him; thus the American characters' reactions to encountering Zilla.


This.

I mean, GMK's whole premise is that basically people forgot Godzilla's attack.

So it's certainly possible that Tristar Godzilla's timeline has the same issue.

And then GMK happens.

Doesn't seem hard to connect the three, IMO.

Obviously it was just meant as a throwaway line to poke fun, but if you rationalize it, based on how the people react to things in GMK, you can stitch the three together without having to do any heavy fanon lifting.

The reason why I like this film is that the overarching theme is a generational disconnect between the adults, who were kids during WW2, and the modern youth, who have no real understanding of Imperial Japan. There`s a large generational disconnect.

Godzilla can represent a lot of things, that don`t really conflict.
While whether individual members of the Japanese Imperial Army should get memorials, or simply not be forgotten, is an issue that I don`t dare touch. But the film addresses that Godzilla, is made of the Japanese soldiers that served their country in WW2. While what happened in WW2 is an atrocity, its important to remember a lot of Japanese youth were drafted into the army against their will. Godzilla in this sense, can be either viewed as nationalistic war criminals who seek revenge for being erased from history, or the youth and innocents that were compelled to join the army; or both.

Godzilla can also represent ignorance; in that many Japanese kids and youth don`t know much about WW2, and it strays into the idea that if you don`t know war you dont know true peace. It also stems into the idea that Japan is becoming at risk for super nationalistic tendencies rearing their ugly heads. That`s why I bolded the section about people forgetting Godzilla`s attack in 1954. If you take Godzilla as a representation for forgetting the Pacific War, and down the line becoming warlike or nationalistic again, the chance seeps in.

But Godzilla also works as a double symbol, with him being the Hiroshima bombing; that being if Godzilla, the bomb or the dangers of nukes are forgotten, then history would repeat itself. Despite nukes not really being mentioned in the film, the clearest shot of this being the case, is after Godzilla fires his beam and there`s a literal mushroom cloud.

The Guardian Trio can be many things. They can be literal nature gods, which ancient Japan, (and current), deeply cares about and is important. Additionally, since these monsters were basically defeated by old samurai warlords (when do we get that movie?) they can represent Japan prior to the Meiji Restoration. In a way they can basically be giving a big "skreeonk you" to the modern nationalism, because the OLDER nationalism and samurai era, which produced some of the worlds greatest art and literature, is stronger. Culturally, its saying "You don`t need imperialistic nationalism for a great japan; the land and culture was already great.

Yuri and the conflict with her father, which yes resolves at the end, ties into this all. The generational gap between those who grew up as kids during WW2 and the new kids.


If you want to take a stab at what Godzilla 1998`s relevance in the film is, while it`s clearly just a jab, in a larger sense it can also represent that Americans/Foreigners can and never truly understand Godzilla because they were never hit by the nuclear bomb.

The reason why I love this film so much, is that the symbolism is obvious to anyone paying attention, but you still get a poop ton of cool action, and the symbolism isn`t exactly 100% clear on what it is or isn`t. When Godzilla blows stuff up its still cool, and Ghidorah is still awesome. To be clear, anything I said now isn`t 100%, and I`m not saying they`re explicitly my own feelings or that they`re correct.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby Stump Feet » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:14 pm

You know, after thinking about the message GMK delivers, I think I appreciate this movie a whole hell of a lot more than I ever did.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:38 am

I just rewatched the film with a Japanese friend of mine. I was in the mood to do so after Mt. Fuji, because there’s a spiritual element to the mountains. Anyways, some stuff I want to mention, regarding what the subtitles kind of leave out:

-There’s a guy that Yuri originally goes in a date with. Its the guy that works with her. It’s humor that’s easy to miss, but it’s basically that he’s a complete failure and fails to bring Yuri home. It’s not a big dramatic love triangle, but the Japanese dialogue makes it clear, where he addresses her as “Yuri-Chan” and some other stuff. Very minor, but it’s still a nice touch.

-The scene where Yuri calls her dad to find out information in Godzilla, is one of the biggest moments in the film, where he basically ignores her and says he can ask her friends/you wouldn’t understand.

-During the scene where it’s talked about where Godzilla appears and is full of hatred, it not only mentions Asia, but America. I think the implication is that the WW2 imperialist army soldiers are angry that they’ve been forgotten about and now they’re buddy buddy with America.

-I’ve seen a lot of people say Baragon had the most character, and I don’t disagree, but rewatching the film, Ghidorah and Mothra are executed really effectively. Sure, there’s a moment where Mothra slowly glides towards Godzilla(before he blasts her), but there’s plenty of flapping and really fast movement in her end. Same goes for Ghidorah. Speaking of, the Godzilla and Ghidorah suits both have really neat interior mouth shots.

-Now that I’ve been living in japan, there’s a lot of little poop I noticed, mainly like brands and vending machines. It’s just interesting seeing really recognizeable stuff that I used to completely ignore.

-I realized the new girl I’m seeing looks a lot like Yuri. :)
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.


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