Talkback: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

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omgitsgodzilla
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:36 pm

SuperSaiyan4Godzilla wrote:
tymon wrote:
shinmattiathekaiju wrote:Because today's audience hates the implausible zone.


Wow, today's audiences must be gullible and stupid as all hell to think anything they're watching is "plausible".


There's a certain amount of verisimilitude that goes with today's movies that past Godzilla films don't really have.

Inception is a crazy-ass film that is the least plausible film to come out in awhile. Yet, everyone loves it. Why? Because the writing was good and it had a bit of verisimilitude. You can make a ridiculous idea plausible with good writing.

And good writing is something the Godzilla films really don't have.

Inception got away with it because everything surreal occurred in a dream. The only real stretch was people being able to meet - presumably with some good old Hollywood science - in the same dream.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Ethan » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:43 pm

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:
Biollante wrote:Maybe it's perfect from his perspective/standards.


A "perfect film" implies that its a film that nobody can think of anything bad about it. There's always going to be some person out there to point out a film's flaws, which other people can then think about. Therefore, there is no such thing as a "perfect film". And if there were a perfect film, it sure wouldn't be Godzilla X MechaGodzilla.

If he thinks its a perfect film, then fine. But, he should at least know what other people say is wrong about the film. Like the many one-dimensional bland characters (except Akana), and the story forgetting about what the audience is here to see.

I think a perfect film isn't one without flaws. Rather it's one that is so masterfully put together that the viewer doesn't see/care about the flaws. Such films do exist. Granted only Gojira fits into this category as far as the franchise is concerned.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby tymon » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:50 pm

Chris55 wrote:
Wait, wait, wait..so..Superman ISN'T real?


Fact: Superman is more plausible than Batman.

First person to explain why gets a cookie.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:06 pm

Ethan wrote:
GotengoXGodzilla wrote:
Biollante wrote:Maybe it's perfect from his perspective/standards.


A "perfect film" implies that its a film that nobody can think of anything bad about it. There's always going to be some person out there to point out a film's flaws, which other people can then think about. Therefore, there is no such thing as a "perfect film". And if there were a perfect film, it sure wouldn't be Godzilla X MechaGodzilla.

If he thinks its a perfect film, then fine. But, he should at least know what other people say is wrong about the film. Like the many one-dimensional bland characters (except Akana), and the story forgetting about what the audience is here to see.

I think a perfect film isn't one without flaws. Rather it's one that is so masterfully put together that the viewer doesn't see/care about the flaws. Such films do exist. Granted only Gojira fits into this category as far as the franchise is concerned.

Well, even going by that, there's going to be someone out there that will say that a film isn't so masterfully put together and they do manage to find obvious flaws.

For example, my favorite film of all time is Apocalypse Now. Do I think its a perfect film? No, the film has its flaws. To me, the same can be said for every film. So, I believe that there is no such thing as a "perfect film".

As for the Godzilla films with the best writing, I think that the most well-written Godzilla films are Mothra vs. Godzilla and Son Of Godzilla. Both are able to make the human plot just as interesting as the monster plot, while also making the monsters actual characters in the film, rather than just an element of the plot. There are other Godzilla films that do that, but Mothra vs. Godzilla and Son Of Godzilla pull it off the best. Other well-written Godzilla films are Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep, Gojira and Godzilla vs. Biollante.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby shinmattiathekaiju » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:07 am

SuperSaiyan4Godzilla wrote:
tymon wrote:
Chris55 wrote:
Wait, wait, wait..so..Superman ISN'T real?


Fact: Superman is more plausible than Batman.

First person to explain why gets a cookie.


Does it have to do with The Science of Superman by Mark Wolverton? I've yet to read Becoming Batman, but from what I skimmed through...Batman is just a pain in the ass to become.


First of all,you have to get your parents killed after watching a Zorro movie.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Ethan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:50 am

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:Well, even going by that, there's going to be someone out there that will say that a film isn't so masterfully put together and they do manage to find obvious flaws.

For example, my favorite film of all time is Apocalypse Now. Do I think its a perfect film? No, the film has its flaws. To me, the same can be said for every film. So, I believe that there is no such thing as a "perfect film".

As for the Godzilla films with the best writing, I think that the most well-written Godzilla films are Mothra vs. Godzilla and Son Of Godzilla. Both are able to make the human plot just as interesting as the monster plot, while also making the monsters actual characters in the film, rather than just an element of the plot. There are other Godzilla films that do that, but Mothra vs. Godzilla and Son Of Godzilla pull it off the best. Other well-written Godzilla films are Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep, Gojira and Godzilla vs. Biollante.

But that someone's opinion that a film isn't masterfully put together doesn't negate its quality. If so one could argue that there's no such thing a good film because everything is at the mercy of opinions. Some of the films I consider masterpieces are often critized beyond reason, and I still consider such opinions irrelevant when I watch the film.

Regarding Godzilla X Mechagodzilla, I think it's fairly entertaining. Easily the third best Mechagodzilla film.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Gojira-Fan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:44 am

SuperSaiyan4Godzilla wrote:
shinmattiathekaiju wrote:Except Gojira,the 60's movies,the first three heisei movies + Destroyah,GMK and the Kiryu movies.




GMK's writing is decent. It characterizes the monsters and characters in some new, interesting ways. However, characters like Yuki are just bad. She's too archetypal and feels like a cut-out character rather than an actual character. Her friend with the glasses was interesting. The people in the BS station were more interesting than her. Her father was more interesting than her. When your main character isn't compelling or interesting, we have an issue with the writing.



Eh, I would disagree with that. Who's more interesting in Gojira, Ogata (the main character) or Dr. Serizawa? In Terror of Mechagodzilla, Biologist Sasaki ( the main character) or Katsura?

A well-developed, interesting main-character may be necessary in a character piece, but most of the Godzilla movies aren't those. The only Godzilla film I can think of that fits that bill is ALL MONSTERS ATTACK.

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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:12 pm

Ethan wrote:
GotengoXGodzilla wrote:Well, even going by that, there's going to be someone out there that will say that a film isn't so masterfully put together and they do manage to find obvious flaws.

For example, my favorite film of all time is Apocalypse Now. Do I think its a perfect film? No, the film has its flaws. To me, the same can be said for every film. So, I believe that there is no such thing as a "perfect film".

As for the Godzilla films with the best writing, I think that the most well-written Godzilla films are Mothra vs. Godzilla and Son Of Godzilla. Both are able to make the human plot just as interesting as the monster plot, while also making the monsters actual characters in the film, rather than just an element of the plot. There are other Godzilla films that do that, but Mothra vs. Godzilla and Son Of Godzilla pull it off the best. Other well-written Godzilla films are Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep, Gojira and Godzilla vs. Biollante.

But that someone's opinion that a film isn't masterfully put together doesn't negate its quality. If so one could argue that there's no such thing a good film because everything is at the mercy of opinions. Some of the films I consider masterpieces are often critized beyond reason, and I still consider such opinions irrelevant when I watch the film.


Really, it all just comes down to how someone would define a "perfect film". Obviously, you and I have different definitions of what that would be and neither of us want to change our own definitions, which is fine.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Gojira-Fan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:25 pm

SuperSaiyan4Godzilla wrote:
Gojira-Fan wrote:
SuperSaiyan4Godzilla wrote:
GMK's writing is decent. It characterizes the monsters and characters in some new, interesting ways. However, characters like Yuki are just bad. She's too archetypal and feels like a cut-out character rather than an actual character. Her friend with the glasses was interesting. The people in the BS station were more interesting than her. Her father was more interesting than her. When your main character isn't compelling or interesting, we have an issue with the writing.



Eh, I would disagree with that. Who's more interesting in Gojira, Ogata (the main character) or Dr. Serizawa? In Terror of Mechagodzilla, Biologist Sasaki ( the main character) or Katsura?

A well-developed, interesting main-character may be necessary in a character piece, but most of the Godzilla movies aren't those. The only Godzilla film I can think of that fits that bill is ALL MONSTERS ATTACK.


I don't find Serizawa to be that compelling. Sure, he has more dimension than the characters around him, but that's about all he has. I also don't find Katsura to be an interesting character. The characters I've seen in Godzilla films are a dime-a-dozen in science fiction.

And there's a key issue with your thinking: Thinking that Godzilla films are not character pieces. Its almost like you're excusing the horrible writing because these films are naturally inferior (or superior?) or different from any other form of story telling. Which they're not.


But, can you agree that Serizawa was more interesting than Ogata? My point was that the main character does not necessarily have to be the most interesting or compelling character.

Seeing as Sekizawa was one of the most prolific of the Godzilla writers, I think I will use him for my example as to why simple characters don't have to equal bad writing.

Anyway, the stories that Sekizawa wrote didn't require deep human characters. Why? Because these films are about LARGE problems. The problems present in his stories can affect a society as a whole. Monsters can destroy cities, and that affects a lot of people. So, the problems aren't very personal.
As well, the actions of the characters in his narratives are hardly ever personal. In MOTHRA VS. GODZILLA, the characters are there to be the champions of what Elias want, which is what Mothra wants. We get a muckracker reporter, a goofy but likeable female side character, and a scientist as our main characters. There easy to like, and the actors help sell the personality of each of these 3 main characters. We don't need to know what Ichiro Sakai (the reporter) personally wants other than wanting the egg back from Happy Enterprises (which is what the other 2 characters want). What else would knowing more about the main characters in MOTHRA VS. GODZILLA add to the story? The best thing about MOTHRA VS. GODZILLA is it's pace. The film wastes no time, and taking time to develop the characters is just going to bog down the pace, especially seeing as they are already pretty likeable.

There is also some social commentary in MOTHRA VS. GODZILLA that adds some depth to the narrative. Around the time of the release of this film, the Japanese Post-War economic miracle was happening, when private business was being liberalized from government regulation. MOTHRA VS. GODZILLA, like Mothra before it, was a criticism of the western model of capitalism that was happening in Japan at the time.

In the end, we get a straight-forward story with likable main characters, as well as some light social commentary that doesn't become preachy or bog down the film. The characters might be simple, but that's not a bad thing. Simple characters do not equal poor writing. And while Sekizawa probably didn't deserve an award for his writing, he certainly wasn't a bad writer.

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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Gojira-Fan » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:04 pm

Tyler wrote:The love triangle was the emotional core of the original film. You have the anti-nuclear war stuff, which is great, but Serizawa telling Ogata and Emiko to be happy together at the end really ties the film together dramatically. At least for me.


The love triangle worked well. I can't think of many other Godzilla films that have me as emotionally invested in the characters the way Gojira does.

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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:07 am

They need a new meme: Not sure if trolling, or just Roger Ebert.

Seriously, did he pay any skreeonking attention to the movie?
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby tymon » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:21 am

Gojira-Fan wrote:
Tyler wrote:The love triangle was the emotional core of the original film. You have the anti-nuclear war stuff, which is great, but Serizawa telling Ogata and Emiko to be happy together at the end really ties the film together dramatically. At least for me.


The love triangle worked well. I can't think of many other Godzilla films that have me as emotionally invested in the characters the way Gojira does.


Agreed, best kaiju-characters ever IMO. All four were critically important to the narrative, they all experienced development through tragedy, and they were all very well-acted.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby shinmattiathekaiju » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:03 am

Chris55 wrote:You guys are stupid! WHAT love triangle!?

Roger Ebert says there isn't one!

"When Dr. Serizawa demonstrates the Oxygen Destroyer to the fiancee of his son,"

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbc ... 20315/1023






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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Showa Gyaos » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:33 pm

omgitsgodzilla wrote:They need a new meme: Not sure if trolling, or just Roger Ebert.

Or perhaps we could spread it?
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Huan_of_Valinor » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:26 pm

Crap, i had forgotten Ebert's review of Gojira, seriously, he must've fallen asleep and tried to piece the film back together somehow.


THEN he goes and gives X3 a good review, and rated Green Lantern higher than Thor...

on topic, i just saw this for the first time today, it was okay. I've now seen all of the japanese goji movies lol.

too much anime in this movie lol
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby therealmccoy » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:56 pm

The kiryu movies are probably my favorite millenium movies. I think the stories were well put together, and the characters were interesting, but that's me, the guy who didn't really like GMK.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby KiryuFreak » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:27 pm

Good. Story has some flaws like the bone thing, I love the idea but it's weird...what if an arm cracked when he smacked Godzilla? But otherwise good, although the fact that he had to recharge so fast, that disapointed me a lot.

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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Space Hunter M » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:39 pm

KiryuFreak wrote:What if an arm cracked when he smacked Godzilla?

You'd think it would have to be strong enough to support the weight of a 20,000 ton monstrosity in the first place.
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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby KiryuFreak » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:44 pm

I just think it's weird how the prime minister thought bones were a better substitute than circuits, but the idea is still pretty cool and yeah I guess the bones were strong as he flipped Godzilla over his back without cracking a thing.

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Re: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002)

Postby Spirit Ghidorah 2010 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:50 am

KiryuFreak wrote:I just think it's weird how the prime minister thought bones were a better substitute than circuits

He said that bio-computers were faster than normal computers. You need DNA for biocomputers. Bones contain DNA.

You do the math.
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