Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Stevo_1985 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:58 am

eabaker wrote:
Godzillian wrote:
Cookson wrote:I wonder if taking a little more time on the film for a summer 2005 release would have helped it.

Honestly though, it's just another G film in the series now. At the time it was a big thing because it was the 50tg, but it's no big deal now.

More time wouldn't fix it's awful script and poor pacing


Well, unless that time was used for script rewrites and more editorial oversight, all by people with better taste than Kitamura.


That's a lot of people.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby godzilla5417 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Godzillian wrote:
Cookson wrote:I wonder if taking a little more time on the film for a summer 2005 release would have helped it.

Honestly though, it's just another G film in the series now. At the time it was a big thing because it was the 50tg, but it's no big deal now.

More time wouldn't fix it's awful script and poor pacing

Nah man it's the best movie ever made, haven't you heard it won an oscar for best foreign film! What are you patrick? Have you lived under a rock your entire life, boy do I feel sorry for you.
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Is Final Wars "Bad"?

Postby Genjira Overwatch » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:49 pm

I can't believe I'd ever have to ask this, but fandom.... Is Final Wars truly "bad"? I might be slightly biased on this one because Final Wars was one of my first Godzilla films I ever saw, but even today I enjoy the film. Being the 50th anniversary film, Toho wanted to do something BIG. They put classic monsters from the Showa era back into the spotlight looking better than ever to end the franchise lovingly, and I honestly think they did a decent job. Final Wars was meant to be a love letter to the entire series, paying respect to the roots while amping up the action to near insane levels. Yes, I know the human vs alien story was re-used as it always is, and it was heavily tinted with elements of anime type characters and subplots (Which we had only seen once before in Godzilla against Mechagodzilla), but I find amusement in some of those more campy moments of the film.

What do you guys think? Was FW a staple of your childhood like mine, or do you find it's plot and flashy theme to be a bit cringe worthy?
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Re: Is Final Wars "Bad"?

Postby GigaBowserG » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:13 pm

May I refer you to: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21078
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Re: Is Final Wars "Bad"?

Postby Jomei » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:37 pm

Genjira Overwatch wrote: a love letter to the entire series


I hate this tired phrase, and yes, Final Wars is bad.

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Re: Is Final Wars "Bad"?

Postby Godzillian » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:45 pm

Genjira Overwatch wrote:I can't believe I'd ever have to ask this, but fandom.... Is Final Wars truly "bad"? I might be slightly biased on this one because Final Wars was one of my first Godzilla films I ever saw, but even today I enjoy the film. Being the 50th anniversary film, Toho wanted to do something BIG. They put classic monsters from the Showa era back into the spotlight looking better than ever to end the franchise lovingly, and I honestly think they did a decent job. Final Wars was meant to be a love letter to the entire series, paying respect to the roots while amping up the action to near insane levels. Yes, I know the human vs alien story was re-used as it always is, and it was heavily tinted with elements of anime type characters and subplots (Which we had only seen once before in Godzilla against Mechagodzilla), but I find amusement in some of those more campy moments of the film.

What do you guys think? Was FW a staple of your childhood like mine, or do you find it's plot and flashy theme to be a bit cringe worthy?

This is the second thread you brought this up in. Yes, Godzilla Final Wars is bad, its a poorly made film, with unoriginal ideas, boring action scenes, unengaging characters, and a blatant disregard for the Toho kaiju legacy. It is not a "love letter", and it does not "pay respect to the roots". It's ok if you like it, just don't pretend it's some high point of the series that is misunderstood. It is a terrible film that put the franchise into a coma that took a hollywood reboot to bring it out of.
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Re: Is Final Wars "Bad"?

Postby MandaSaurus » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:00 pm

Jomei wrote:
Genjira Overwatch wrote: a love letter to the entire series


I hate this tired phrase, and yes, Final Wars is bad.

A what?!? Love letter to the entire series?!? Pathetic. If Michael Bay were in charge of 'love letters', yes...

=BOOM= MORE explosions... Here ya go - ALL the Godzilla monsters in ONE movie, NYAAHH... :P

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Re: Is Final Wars "Bad"?

Postby szmigiel » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:17 am

MandaSaurus wrote:
Jomei wrote:A what?!? Love letter to the entire series?!? Pathetic. If Michael Bay were in charge of 'love letters', yes...

=BOOM= MORE explosions... Here ya go - ALL the Godzilla monsters in ONE movie, NYAAHH... :P

Yeah explosions and loading movies with a bunch of kaiju are pretty much unheard of in the Toho sci-fi and Godzilla films.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Maritonic » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:37 am

It's subjective to your personal tastes. So, it's all biased opinions...
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:49 am

I don’t see how anyone can say Final Wars is a love letter to the series. It’s definitely a homage, but I’ve accepted it’s not exactly a good one. Yet despite that, it’s rhe most interesting in the franchise. And I do think the hate, stems from the fact that initially at the time GFW was the last film in the series, and often blamed for ending the series. Yet in a post Shin world, I do think the film is still unfairly hated, or under appreciated. I’m not saying it’s good objectively but to me it’s very entertaining and I totally get why people like it.

I think it impacted me the most pre-Shin and the affect has worn off. At the time, I believed it was easily the best looking, in terms of camera work and most dynamic entry in the series. A lot of previous films, while having amazing shots, ultimately had a lot of very flat camera work. GFW has a lot of well shot scenes, including when Rodan destroys NYC.

Yes the Ebirah scene is kinda wrong in terms of making the monsters seem weak, but it’s also one of the most unique scenes in the franchise. Seeing mutants vs a monster.

GFW also feels the most lived in. Having cutaways to people reacting to the Xilliens appear, round table discussions, and even things like the opening montage make it feel like the GFW is lived in and not a static film.

At the same time, there’s this general dumbness that is in the film. I’m not talking about camp, Gordon is fine. I’m talking about scenes like where the kid is playing with the bandais, with his disgusting chocolate face and throws the Gamera vinyl into the fire. Same for scenes like the cop scene. Those scenes feel really immature and mean spirited. I think these are what people talk about when they talk about it being TRANSFORMERS, and I’ll get to that later.

And much of the film can be cut. What I realized about GFW is that it has waaaay too many plots intertwining. The obvious one is Minya, but the other one includes that rival of Ozaki. Ozaki did not need a rival, nor was the big sacrifice necessary.

I’ll contest that the fights were lackluster and short, but that’s obvious. However, people rarely talk about the final fight of Godzilla vs Keizer Ghidorah. Honestly, it’s a pretty good fight, not the best, but definitely better than many others in the franchise. KG uses a variety of beams and melee, as well as incorporates Ozaki into the climax. The major issue, is the tag team that occurs right before it. The Monster X vs Godzilla fight is actually really short, and the four way fight is waaaay too brief. If certain parts of the film were cut, like some of the aforementioned plots, and Godzilla and Mothra vs Gigan and Monster X was lengthened, the climax of the film would’ve had more impact.

In terms of how other monsters were treated, I think actually a lot of monsters are pretty cool in the film. Yes it’s satisfying to see Zilla curbstomped, Rodan destroying NYC, etc... but what I realized is a lot of the other monsters could be REPLACED by generic Xillien monsters. but Again this is supposed to be a homage, and while it’s cool seeing Rodan again the film ignores a lot of what makes those monsters awesome. People complain about Hedorah, yet I don’t see people talk how King Ceaser is horribly handled.


I think the film has a lot of bad, but it has a lot of interesting elements that kind of aren’t explored anywhere else in the franchise. I guess what I’m trying to say is that to me the film is bad, but also has some great elements, and is bizarrely super duper ambitious. You certainly can’t call GFW lazy, and I think it’s a case of trying waaaay too much at once. If many subplots were cut (Minya, Kitamura, evil Ozaki) and other sections with other monsters like the climax, or the initial Godzilla vs Gigan fight were elongated, I don’t think anyone would take issue with the film.

Finally, while yes, Gigan, Mothra and Hedorah were mistreated, don’t act like you’re so upset when Kamacuras, Zilla, Kumonga and Ebirah were offed quickly because they’ve always been treated like fodder Kaiju.

Anyways, this is a separate idea, but I’ve seen a lot of comparisons to TRANSFORMERS, the idea that the movie isn’t faithful to the series, has too many explosions, and has a general dumbness. I agree many scenes are dumb, like the aforementioned chocolate kid or cop scene. Yet, it is not as dumb as the transformers series, as Ozaki and the main cast, are not offensive to the audiences intelligence. People are not over sexualized, and there aren’t dumb thong and weed jokes. In terms of the explosions thing, I mean, it’s a Kaiju film. Things exploding is par for the course. Even the showa series had tons of explosions! Yet, in concur that the monsters, outside Godzilla, Rodan and maybe MX/KG were handled badly. Yet, it’s not a horrible film. I’ve seen a few of the transformers films, and been horribly bored by them. Yet when I watch GFW, even during the bad scenes I’m continually entertained and that’s beyond being a Godzilla fanboy. I agree the film isn’t comparable to things like 54, Shin, GMK, MVS or the classics, but it isn’t an entirely bad film.

Interestingly enough, a few years ago, pre Shin, I was a less nuanced defender of this film. I used to argue with Legion about it. I wouldn’t be surprised if my opinion gets increasingly negative as I grow older, but I do think that some of the silly stuff I like about the film hold some merit.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby GigaBowserG » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:55 am

LSD Jellyfish wrote:And I do think the hate, stems from the fact that initially at the time GFW was the last film in the series, and often blamed for ending the series. Yet in a post Shin world, I do think the film is still unfairly hated, or under appreciated. I’m not saying it’s good objectively but to me it’s very entertaining and I totally get why people like it.


I think some of the hate also stems from contemptment held towards the director, so it's easy to understand how that could affect enjoyment of the film in some ways.
Last edited by GigaBowserG on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Ryguy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:15 am

I've accepted that it's a stupid-ass movie. But it's a fun movie

It's not supposed to make you think like the original, or 84, or Shin. It's just stupid monster brawling, and I love it

You could have a stupid movie that's just outright boring, like Ghostbusters 2016, so at least Final Wars has that going for it
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Goji » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:44 am

GFW isn't nearly as bad "Ghostbusters" 2016, and that's really saying something. A testament to how incredibly awful it was.
UltramanGoji wrote: Cranky because you got mad I implied GFW isn't a good movie aren't you

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:41 pm

Why the hate towards the director though? Outside GFW he’s made Midnight Meat Train which I think was well made (silly, but well made). I also read King Ceaser is his favorite monster, so I don’t think you can make the accusation that he hated monsters like Hedorah, just that things didn’t work out how they wanted. This isn’t a defense of the film, I’m just curious why people hate him so much and get so personal.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby UltramanGoji » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:56 pm

He bashed the original series and basically had a Devlin + Emmerich mentality when making the film.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:02 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:He bashed the original series and basically had a Devlin + Emmerich mentality when making the film.

I just read on Wikipedia that he stated his favorite monster and movie were both from the Showa era, so can I get some sort of article or something? I think it’s also time to accept that there’s also going to be new fans of the series, beyond the showa series. Obviously it’s easy to say that’s the Heisei crowd, but now the millennium series is ten plus years old and has a slew of new entries, eventually we will have directors and fans who grew up with Shin or even the monster planet. I kinda went on a digression, but interesting to think about.

I could see the Devlin and Emmerich thing, all the annoying and goofy moments, that don’t serve the story and are supposed to be funny but instead are cringey or crude. But in the end, rather than beat Godzilla down he basically made him OP, so I don’t think it’s comparable in the same way.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby UltramanGoji » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:50 pm

Hmm...I can't seem to find anything besides interviews saying he didn't like the 1990's films, but I definitely remember a Godzilla-Movies article mentioning something about not wanting it to be cheesy like the old films.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:18 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:Hmm...I can't seem to find anything besides interviews saying he didn't like the 1990's films, but I definitely remember a Godzilla-Movies article mentioning something about not wanting it to be cheesy like the old films.

I’ll just take your word on it, but the problem with that is that it’s really too general. Like if you asked me if G54 was cheesy, I’d say no, but then if you asked me about late showa, or some of the early 50s/60s sci-fi tropes Id give a hard yes.

The thing is though, GFW is one of the cheesiest entries in the series. The whole mutant thing is over the top, some of the dialogue is memorable and over the top (sorry I’m a vegetarian), and many of the actors like X overact and flip out. I think the thing that’s missing though, is how things like the showa era, even the silliest of them, take themselves seriously, without combining edge, which will be the point of contention and where people draw the line. It’s also why people would be right in saying GFW is too different from the showa series, even though it copies a lot of elements, and is a homage. GFW wants to take itself too seriously in some regards, but wants to be over the top while ignoring the camp that comes along with that.

I think a good example would be actually Godzilla vs Megalon vs GFW. Both are silly and over the top, but where GVM embraces it’s ridiculousness, with Jet Jaguar, GFW tries to make its monsters more scary and serious. I love the Gigan redesign, and most of the designs, but it’s really apparent what style they were going for in GFW, and while it works, it can definitely deter some fans, especially when ultimately it is just as cheesy. I hope I’m making sense here.

Unrelated but another positive I really like about the film is all the different mutant mechs. I like the other mechs other than the Gotengo, and it is cool to see a fleet of battleships, rather than singular things like the super x.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby GigaBowserG » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:35 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:Hmm...I can't seem to find anything besides interviews saying he didn't like the 1990's films, but I definitely remember a Godzilla-Movies article mentioning something about not wanting it to be cheesy like the old films.


This one?
https://www.godzilla-movies.com/news/be ... final-wars
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby UltramanGoji » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:44 pm

GigaBowserG wrote:
UltramanGoji wrote:Hmm...I can't seem to find anything besides interviews saying he didn't like the 1990's films, but I definitely remember a Godzilla-Movies article mentioning something about not wanting it to be cheesy like the old films.


This one?
https://www.godzilla-movies.com/news/be ... final-wars


That's the one! Thank you!

Specifically, this is the paragraph I'm remembering:

It would eventually be read that Kitamura's appraisal of older Godzilla movies was sardonic. “Only the first one [Godzilla (1954)], that was a masterpiece and that was something different,” Kitamura stated, “but after that, back in the ’70s, Godzilla had lots of fun in it, very stupid things and funny things.” (8) He's not entirely wrong, but his contemporaries had historically been more endearing and analytical toward the series and its weaknesses. Some film historians have found Kitamura's criticisms of the series contemptuous and disrespectful. (11) Regardless of what he really felt or feels about the series, he was convinced he would make a great film. His goal was for young men to tell their girlfriends, “'Hey, this time Godzilla looks cool. Let's check it out.'" (7)


The bolded is what irks me and is seemingly the Devlin+Emmerich mentality I was referring to. I might just be reading it wrong, but that's not exactly an endearing thing in my eyes. He makes it seem like the films are for children.

Keep in mind, he's not wrong about the 70's being geared towards kids nor do I find anything wrong with his opinions about the Heisei series. It's just this kind of "anything you can do, I can do better" way of thinking is, in my opinion, wholly unhealthy for the Godzilla franchise. Do I think there should never be anything that trumps the past films? Absolutely not. Innovation is the way of the future. I just don't want them to be waved away like their inconsequential.
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