Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby RumbleJapan » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:07 pm

It's pointless to try and argue which is the better film unless you're conversing with people whose opinions are tangent to yours. Your own experiences and opinions are subjective. If you want to share how awesome of a film it is, fine. If you want to wreck the film and "prove" how bad it is, thats fine as well. But don't get butt-hurt when someone says otherwise.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Kaiser » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:27 pm

It's kind of hard to have a debate whilst adhering to the whole "opinions are subjective" argument, which I personally despise because it gives people leeway to shoot their mouth off without explaining why or justifying their views in any way. I'd like to think we can have intelligent dicussions here without resorting to treating this forum like a fourth-grade classroom.

Just because an opinion is subjective does not mean it automatically has merit.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Legion1979 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:52 pm

A person can like GFW better than Mothra vs Godzilla. I don't know why a person would, but it's still totally fine. There's nothing truly wrong with that. But anyone who says that GFW is a better made film than MvsG is definitely not playing with a full deck. Or has terrible taste.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Godzilla 2000 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:47 pm

I'd like to take us back to the "godzilla lost to mothra" thing, because it's never made sense to me.

Why is Godzilla losing such a hard pill to swallow for so many people? Godzilla was the bad guy (ever wonder why it's called Mothra vs Godzilla and not the other way around?). If he wins, people die, which is bad. Get it? No one in the theater cheered "yeah, godzilla! kill those people!"

Besides that, he lost because the mothras OUTSMARTED HIM. They didnt go super saiyan and wreck his poop, they just held him off. The adult pinned him down and pulled him away from her egg to protect it, while the babies flanked him and slowly wore him down.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby kamilleblu » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:48 am

Godzilla 2000 wrote:I'd like to take us back to the "godzilla lost to mothra" thing, because it's never made sense to me.

Why is Godzilla losing such a hard pill to swallow for so many people? Godzilla was the bad guy (ever wonder why it's called Mothra vs Godzilla and not the other way around?). If he wins, people die, which is bad. Get it? No one in the theater cheered "yeah, godzilla! kill those people!"

Besides that, he lost because the mothras OUTSMARTED HIM. They didnt go super saiyan and wreck his poop, they just held him off. The adult pinned him down and pulled him away from her egg to protect it, while the babies flanked him and slowly wore him down.


Was Godzilla really all that bad? It seemed more like he was sight seeing, as he mainly passed through coastal towns and avoided heavily populated areas. Plus, can his attraction to Mothra's egg really be described as evil. That particular Godzilla just seemed to love a good fight (shown through his behavior towards Anguirus, Rodan, and Mothra) and might have simply been curious about the contents of the egg. Besides, when he later had the opportunity to destroy the egg he didn't bother it and then left the mainland. Lastly, he seemed completely uninterested in fighting the Mothra larvae and it looked more like he threw in the towel at the end instead of being defeated.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Legion1979 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:32 am

kamilleblu wrote:Was Godzilla really all that bad? It seemed more like he was sight seeing, as he mainly passed through coastal towns and avoided heavily populated areas. Plus, can his attraction to Mothra's egg really be described as evil. That particular Godzilla just seemed to love a good fight (shown through his behavior towards Anguirus, Rodan, and Mothra) and might have simply been curious about the contents of the egg. Besides, when he later had the opportunity to destroy the egg he didn't bother it and then left the mainland.


No matter how you try to spin it, Godzilla was the bad guy and needed to be defeated. Take off the fan goggles and look at the movie from a storytelling perspective.

Lastly, he seemed completely uninterested in fighting the Mothra larvae and it looked more like he threw in the towel at the end instead of being defeated.


What battle were you watching?

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Julia Bristow » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:33 am

Jesus age CHRIST! -_- Falcon I can get why you might like GFW and hate Godzilla vs Megalon (it is a pretty silly movie but IMO campy doesn't ALWAYS equal bad nor does DARK N GRITTY always equal good) but you have opened up Pandora's Box with you "GFW Why all the hate" thread.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby KaijuFiend » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:23 am

I don't know if you've been given tons of details on why GFW is hated, so here goes:
- Most of the redesigns. They range from meh to terrible for most people. I don't like Godzilla's design, Zilla's design, or Hedorah's design, and I (as well as everyone else) ABSOLUTELY LOATHE what they did to King Caesar. Kaiser Ghidorah is pretty awful looking. Rodan's, Anguirus', Eibrah's, and Gigan's looks in the film are pretty meh to me, and with the exception of Eibrah, they have their share of haters. I do think Minilla, Kamacuras, Kumonga, Mothra, and Monster X look good, though.

- The mutant subplot. It doesn't result in a whole heck of a lot. Apparently if you're godly at martial arts, you're a mutant. It does however lead to multiple human fighting sequences that ripoff reference... *sigh* The Matirx. (I don't dislike The Matrix, but everything was referencing it back then and it got very old very fast). The human fights last much longer than most of the kaiju fights, which is sad, and leads me to my next point...

- The insultingly short fights. This over-two-hours-long film somehow managed to make the majority of the fights under-two-minutes-long. The thing you have to take into consideration when trying to see why people hate the film is that this was supposed to be Godzilla's 50th anniversary celebration film. That's why so many kaiju were in this one - it was trying to pay respect and homage to Godzilla and most of the friends and foes he had dealt with over the years. It failed in that respect by having him kill off each of his foes, with the exception of Ghidorah, in the blink of an eye. The thing you also need to take into consideration is that, in his other films, Godzilla struggles. His opponents are excruciatingly difficult to beat; after very lengthy confrontation, it looks like Godzilla will lose, then he turns the tide and wins. This not only builds suspense and keeps Godzilla from being a boring character (would it really be that interesting if he defeated each foe instantly without ever struggling?), but it shows you how truly formidable his enemies can be. Take Hedorah for example. In Godzilla vs Hedorah, she starts wreaking havoc on the world by killing everything in sight, which pisses off Godzilla. He tries to fight her, and he gets his hand melted slightly from trying to punch her. There's not a whole lot Godzilla is able to do to her by virtue of her being a blob of sludge, and their struggle lasts a long time until he finally figures out a way to kill her. The events of the film cement Hedorah as one of the toughest opponents Godzilla has ever faced. And in GFW, one shot of Godzilla's beam kills Hedorah and Eibrah. They don't even get one minute of screen time. Do you understand now why this is insulting to Hedorah?

- The Minilla subplot. It doesn't have a whole lot of payoff and feels incredibly unnecessary. Yeah, let's hog up screen time with some dumb Minilla thing when other monsters got practically none at all.

- Godzilla's agility. There's a line between making Godzilla a bit more agile and having him pull off full-on kung fu. It's especially ill-fitting when you consider that, again, 50th anniversary. Let's honor Godzilla by ditching his lumbering and slowness that he's known for!

- The attempt to appeal to the teenage demographic. It wouldn't be so bad if it had been a thing or two here or there, but they threw EVERYTHING in, kitchen sink included. The eletro/punk/rock soundtrack. The pimp. Zilla killing a punk. The main Xillian looking like a frontman for an emo band. The Matrix references. The Star Wars references. The leather. The leather. Oh god the leather. Gigan's designs. It's like the film is desperately shouting, "LOOK AT ME! I'M COOL! AREN'T I COOL? THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE COOL TO TEENAGERS, RIGHT?"

- The characters. Douglas Gordon is great, but the rest are quite bland.

I think that should about cover the things people dislike about the film. Sorry for the excruciatingly long rant, but it needed to be said.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Gojira tai Mosura » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:55 am

KaijuFiend wrote:rantrantrant

You just destroyed Final Wars. Every fiber of my body tries to respect this movie. "It's Godzilla, I mean. Hooray?" But that post just reminded me how foul that movie actually was.
I can't respect Final Wars. I just can't. When I try to say "Yeah, the movie was okay." I am immediately reminded by how bad it actually was either by memory, or by someone else reminding me.
You didn't make that big of a deal of the mutant humans though. To me, that was this movie's greatest flaw. The second was the insultingly short fight scenes.
Godzilla's anniversary should have been GMK. Four monsters, great everything, best movie 10/10.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby Space Hunter M » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:59 am

The soundtrack is delightfully enjoyable in an ironic way.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby KaijuFiend » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:57 am

I don't even hate Final Wars; I just figured I should point out everything that most of the people on here regard as flaws so that FalconZ can hopefully see what people are talking about when they say they dislike it.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby UltramanGoji » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:28 am

I'm confused as to why you used female pronouns for Hedorah.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby DrBreakfastMachine » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:04 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:I'm confused as to why you used female pronouns for Hedorah.


I assume it's because of the theory that the orbs Godzilla pulls from Hedorah's body were eggs of some sort, and if it was carrying it eggs it was thus likely a female (insert Zilla jokes here).

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby kamilleblu » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:15 pm

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:
UltramanGoji wrote:I'm confused as to why you used female pronouns for Hedorah.


I assume it's because of the theory that the orbs Godzilla pulls from Hedorah's body were eggs of some sort, and if it was carrying it eggs it was thus likely a female (insert Zilla jokes here).


You asked.

What if Hedorah was asexual?

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby KaijuFiend » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:25 am

"Hedorah's eyes were modeled on female genitalia. I drew the kind of crude picture you find on the walls of a public toilet and handed it to the modeling staff. I said, 'This is what I want Hedorah's eyes to look like.' [laughs] Well, come on, vaginas are scary!" - Yoshimitsu Banno, quoted in Patrick Macias's Tokyoscope: The Japanese Cult Film Companion

This is why I consider Hedorah female.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby edgaguirus » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:25 pm

I think we can all agree that the film was lacking in certain aspects, and overindulged in others. We had lots of action and monsters, though I did enjoy seeing all the old kaiju we haven't for years, and the soundtrack wasn't all bad. What lacked was the characters and originality. And the characters are a major part of what drives the story and gets you invested in the film.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby RumbleJapan » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:00 am

Kaiser wrote:It's kind of hard to have a debate whilst adhering to the whole "opinions are subjective" argument, which I personally despise because it gives people leeway to shoot their mouth off without explaining why or justifying their views in any way. I'd like to think we can have intelligent dicussions here without resorting to treating this forum like a fourth-grade classroom.

Just because an opinion is subjective does not mean it automatically has merit.

Because opinions have no factual basis. You don't need reasoning or justification to explain why you like something because what they deem good or bad is arbitrary. That's just as valid as saying, "You better give me a damn good reason why you're a Christian because I don't like Christians." Intelligent discussions are fun to have, but arguing over a subjective topic only goes around in circles and leads nowhere. Best case scenario is, especially in threads like these, you round up people siding with you and start barraging the opposing person with differing opinions. I'm going to stop now though because I dont want to get off-topic and have the mods on my arse. If i came off as snooty or stuck-up, I apologize
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby YonggaryRGG » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:00 pm

RumbleJapan wrote:Because opinions have no factual basis. You don't need reasoning or justification to explain why you like something because what they deem good or bad is arbitrary. That's just as valid as saying, "You better give me a damn good reason why you're a Christian because I don't like Christians." Intelligent discussions are fun to have, but arguing over a subjective topic only goes around in circles and leads nowhere. Best case scenario is, especially in threads like these, you round up people siding with you and start barraging the opposing person with differing opinions. I'm going to stop now though because I dont want to get off-topic and have the mods on my arse. If i came off as snooty or stuck-up, I apologize


If you can't adequately explain why you like or dislike something, then you really shouldn't bother coming to the table in the first place. Expressing your point of view will oftentimes require an explanation for why you have said point of view, and an opinion with no reasoning behind it is an uninformed opinion. Some opinions are more valid than others.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby DrBreakfastMachine » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:47 pm

YonggaryRGG wrote:
RumbleJapan wrote:Because opinions have no factual basis. You don't need reasoning or justification to explain why you like something because what they deem good or bad is arbitrary. That's just as valid as saying, "You better give me a damn good reason why you're a Christian because I don't like Christians." Intelligent discussions are fun to have, but arguing over a subjective topic only goes around in circles and leads nowhere. Best case scenario is, especially in threads like these, you round up people siding with you and start barraging the opposing person with differing opinions. I'm going to stop now though because I dont want to get off-topic and have the mods on my arse. If i came off as snooty or stuck-up, I apologize


If you can't adequately explain why you like or dislike something, then you really shouldn't bother coming to the table in the first place. Expressing your point of view will oftentimes require an explanation for why you have said point of view, and an opinion with no reasoning behind it is an uninformed opinion. Some opinions are more valid than others.


Not only that, but the more unusual an opinion is, the more justification it needs. For example, saying Final Wars is better than MvG...that is gonna require a lot of explanation for anyone to even consider partially accepting.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Postby RumbleJapan » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:55 am

YonggaryRGG wrote:
RumbleJapan wrote:Because opinions have no factual basis. You don't need reasoning or justification to explain why you like something because what they deem good or bad is arbitrary. That's just as valid as saying, "You better give me a damn good reason why you're a Christian because I don't like Christians." Intelligent discussions are fun to have, but arguing over a subjective topic only goes around in circles and leads nowhere. Best case scenario is, especially in threads like these, you round up people siding with you and start barraging the opposing person with differing opinions. I'm going to stop now though because I dont want to get off-topic and have the mods on my arse. If i came off as snooty or stuck-up, I apologize


If you can't adequately explain why you like or dislike something, then you really shouldn't bother coming to the table in the first place. Expressing your point of view will oftentimes require an explanation for why you have said point of view, and an opinion with no reasoning behind it is an uninformed opinion. Some opinions are more valid than others.

Perhaps there was a miscommunication because the context of what I was trying to say often times get misinterpreted--Im a terrible speaker. Arguing an opinion and supporting it with more subjective points seems like beating around the bush. I was referring to the people who try to suede the crowd by saying a film is bad because it doesn't do "this", or "that" like in "this other film". Just because a film does something bad doesn't make it universally bad--opinions aren't quantifiable or measured by scale. In thus case, you can explain why you like the film and explain why this is better than that, but don't make it sound like a viable fact and flame the person fir thinking otherwise. I'm not trying to be self-entitled--if I came across as that I apologize in advance. But, before the mods show up, lets get back on topic yeah?

You ask why GFW was so terribly received? For me, there was no feasible plot to begin with. It all seemed like one big excuse to gather a roster of some big-name monsters only to have an overrated character (I do like Godzilla, but I think he's an over-hyped kaiju) beat them to a pulp in several one-minute sequences. Characters were stale as saltine crackers, absolutely boring to watch.
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