Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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GFW is one that I don't tend to give much credit too, but it seems people run with this idea that it was somehow *bad*. It wasn't, was it odd? Sure. But it told its story, established its characters, and had plenty of Godzilla to go around.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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_JNavs_ wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:03 am GFW is one that I don't tend to give much credit too, but it seems people run with this idea that it was somehow *bad*. It wasn't, was it odd? Sure. But it told its story, established its characters, and had plenty of Godzilla to go around.
"It told its story, established its characters, and had plenty of Godzilla to go around" is a pretty low bar. :)
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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eabaker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:12 am
_JNavs_ wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:03 am GFW is one that I don't tend to give much credit too, but it seems people run with this idea that it was somehow *bad*. It wasn't, was it odd? Sure. But it told its story, established its characters, and had plenty of Godzilla to go around.
"It told its story, established its characters, and had plenty of Godzilla to go around" is a pretty low bar. :)
Compared to what though, like what is the bar we're holding it too, ya know? It had a narrative, had a pretty cohesive plot, unique villains (somewhat), the score was pretty good for the most part, the main characters, while a bit one note, aren't too out of the norm for the later Toho entries.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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_JNavs_ wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:25 am
eabaker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:12 am
_JNavs_ wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:03 am GFW is one that I don't tend to give much credit too, but it seems people run with this idea that it was somehow *bad*. It wasn't, was it odd? Sure. But it told its story, established its characters, and had plenty of Godzilla to go around.
"It told its story, established its characters, and had plenty of Godzilla to go around" is a pretty low bar. :)
Compared to what though, like what is the bar we're holding it too, ya know? It had a narrative, had a pretty cohesive plot, unique villains (somewhat), the score was pretty good for the most part, the main characters, while a bit one note, aren't too out of the norm for the later Toho entries.
I wasn't really thinking in terms of comparison to other movies, but I suppose the obvious point of reference would be to the rest of the Godzilla series, or the kaiju genre as a whole.

Question for you: What would you say is the central (or at least one major/dominant) theme of GFW?
Last edited by eabaker on Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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eabaker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 am I wasn't really thinking in terms of comparison to other movies, but I suppose the obvious point of reference would be to the rest of the Godzilla series, or the kaiju genre as a whole.

Question for you: What would you say is the central (or at least one major/dominant) theme of GFW?
I'd say theme-wise it was a bit all over the place, but the main one would be that we're all to blame, for all of these monsters, all of this destruction, all of this in-fighting between humans, even with the Xiliens. It may look cool, and it may be action-packed to the brim, but they're saying, none of this should be happening, none of this is okay. Genetic super soldiers taken from their families, kaiju being left to run amok on cities across the planet, we've reached the brink of extinction.

"We're trying so hard, We're dying in vain, We're hopelessly blissful and blind" was used in what's arguably the most notable song in the film, Sum 41- "We're All To Blame". I think that song single-handily gives us, the viewers, the main understanding of this other-wise crazy intense movie.

All of the events transpiring in the film, this is what happens when humanity has absolutely no regard for what they're doing to their planet, it's what happens when we reach that peak of disregard.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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_JNavs_ wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:31 am
eabaker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 am I wasn't really thinking in terms of comparison to other movies, but I suppose the obvious point of reference would be to the rest of the Godzilla series, or the kaiju genre as a whole.

Question for you: What would you say is the central (or at least one major/dominant) theme of GFW?
I'd say theme-wise it was a bit all over the place, but the main one would be that we're all to blame, for all of these monsters, all of this destruction, all of this in-fighting between humans, even with the Xiliens. It may look cool, and it may be action-packed to the brim, but they're saying, none of this should be happening, none of this is okay. Genetic super soldiers taken from their families, kaiju being left to run amok on cities across the planet, we've reached the brink of extinction.

"We're trying so hard, We're dying in vain, We're hopelessly blissful and blind" was used in what's arguably the most notable song in the film, Sum 41- "We're All To Blame". I think that song single-handily gives us, the viewers, the main understanding of this other-wise crazy intense movie.

All of the events transpiring in the film, this is what happens when humanity has absolutely no regard for what they're doing to their planet, it's what happens when we reach that peak of disregard.
And would you say that theme is adequately supported by the plot, the characterizations, and the visual style/visual storytelling choices?

To me, this is the basic bar which GFW fails to clear. Too many choices seem to have been made more in the interest of "cool" the in the interest of supporting any kind of point or significant perspective.

Also, I cannot think of another performance by a major character in a Godzilla movie played by an actor as flat-out incompetent as Don Frye.
Last edited by eabaker on Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Final Wars is based.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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I don’t think FW is especially interested in having a clear theme. It’s not really striving to be a deep and meaningful film. It’s basically just Toho’s attempt at making a Hollywood blockbuster out of the Godzilla franchise.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Garzon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:21 am I don’t think FW is especially interested in having a clear theme. It’s not really striving to be a deep and meaningful film. It’s basically just Toho’s attempt at making a Hollywood blockbuster out of the Godzilla franchise.
I'd argue it succeeded-For all of its faults (lack of focus of a clear theme, semi-cliched plot, disappointingly short monster fights, a lot of flash but not always enough substance) I still think it had a lot going for it.

Also, I had an idea for a video game based off it; You play as one of the 'Super Mutants' and are dispatched to various parts of the world to fight different licensed Kaiju, using both heavy artillery and your own innate physical prowess to slowly whittle down the health of these giant behemoths. Like, a super sized 'David and Goliath' fight, where you'd fight the Kaiju in these destructible environments and have to deal with falling debris, the kaiju's own super powers, and other stuff as you try to lead the Kaiju into traps and slowly drain their health until you unleash the killing blow. In turn, the Kaiju could be controlled by players, and their goal is simple-destroy as much of the city as you can and kill the EDF forces trying to stop you.

TL;DR-It's like the game Evolve, but with everything cranked up to 11.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Garzon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:21 am I don’t think FW is especially interested in having a clear theme. It’s not really striving to be a deep and meaningful film. It’s basically just Toho’s attempt at making a Hollywood blockbuster out of the Godzilla franchise.
A theme doesn't have to be anything especially deep or meaningful; it's just some kind of unifying through-line. The theme of Godzilla vs. Gigan is basically just "manga," which is all that story really requires.

And if the goal was to make something comparable to a Hollywood blockbuster, then a disinterest in theme and the haphazard nature of the storyline worked against that aim.
Last edited by eabaker on Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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eabaker wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:22 am
Garzon wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:21 am I don’t think FW is especially interested in having a clear theme. It’s not really striving to be a deep and meaningful film. It’s basically just Toho’s attempt at making a Hollywood blockbuster out of the Godzilla franchise.
A theme doesn't have to be anything especially deep or meaningful; it's just some kind of unifying through-line. The theme of Godzilla vs. Gigan is basically just "manga," which is all that story really requires.

And if the goal was to make something comparable to a Hollywood blockbuster, then a disinterest in theme and the haphazard nature of the storyline worked against that aim.
I’m not saying there is no theme. The movie does have an anti-nuclear message, but that’s about as standard as it gets for a Godzilla film, and it doesn’t handle it with anything resembling nuance.
Last edited by Garzon on Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Is there any truth to the rumors that Ghidorah was suppose to be in this movie but he got replaced with Monster X? I keep hearing about it but it all sounds pretty dubious.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Gigantis wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:25 pm Is there any truth to the rumors that Ghidorah was suppose to be in this movie but he got replaced with Monster X? I keep hearing about it but it all sounds pretty dubious.
I've heard one rumor that said it was initially supposed to be Destroyah. I heavily doubt that though considering Kitamura's dislike of every Godzilla movie past the 80s.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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If final wars has anything resembling a theme I'd argue it would have to deal with generational differences and evolving legacies. The biggest example being the coup between the younger and older Xilliens, as well as the changing role of Godzilla in the universe's world, and even the child/grandfather/minya relationship. Unfortunately this theme is handled mostly incompetently, and anything beyond this idea is fairly incoherent. That being said, I actually really like the alien coup idea, and would love to see it revisited in a future movie.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Jetty_Jags wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:55 am If final wars has anything resembling a theme I'd argue it would have to deal with generational differences and evolving legacies. The biggest example being the coup between the younger and older Xilliens, as well as the changing role of Godzilla in the universe's world, and even the child/grandfather/minya relationship.
I actually agree with this and when I re-watched the movie myself back in January reached a similar conclusion. When X says it's the end of Godzilla, he's right, to a degree. It's the end of "classic Godzilla." Kitamura brought back a lot of franchise staples, albeit so redone in his style and vision it may as well be its own thing and paying respect to what came before while also laying it to rest. Basically guaranteeing that the next generation of Godzilla filmmakers would have to do something new if they wanted to continue the series in any sort of meaningful way.

In that respect I find it fitting one of the emphasized meanings of "Shin" is "New."
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:10 am
I actually agree with this and when I re-watched the movie myself back in January reached a similar conclusion. When X says it's the end of Godzilla, he's right, to a degree. It's the end of "classic Godzilla." Kitamura brought back a lot of franchise staples, albeit so redone in his style and vision it may as well be its own thing and paying respect to what came before while also laying it to rest. Basically guaranteeing that the next generation of Godzilla filmmakers would have to do something new if they wanted to continue the series in any sort of meaningful way.

In that respect I find it fitting one of the emphasized meanings of "Shin" is "New."
That's really interesting! I'm planning on re-watching as much of the series as I can this summer, and I definitely want to focus on the changing dynamic of Godzilla. There is definitely a way to view Final Wars as a meta-narrative on Godzilla and his evolution as a series, even if this aspect may not have been fully intentional, or completely realized at the time. But that is one thing I really enjoy about the Godzilla series, how the different 'eras' can be interpreted not only as reactions to the world around us, but to the series itself. Clearly the series changes priorities and focuses as time goes on, yet most of these changes are reflections on what came before, whether it be replicating certain qualities, or distancing itself from others. Maybe I'm just crazy, but it really feels like each instalment is a living entity that will continue to interact with future Godzilla media in some way, that the series as a whole is more like an ecosystem than anything else.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Gigantis wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:25 pm Is there any truth to the rumors that Ghidorah was suppose to be in this movie but he got replaced with Monster X? I keep hearing about it but it all sounds pretty dubious.
Nah, it was likely always supposed to be Ghidorah (he's Godzilla's nemesis, who else are you going to do for the final enemy?), I think X was more of a red herring then an actual attempt to replace Ghidorah.
Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:10 am
Jetty_Jags wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:55 am If final wars has anything resembling a theme I'd argue it would have to deal with generational differences and evolving legacies. The biggest example being the coup between the younger and older Xilliens, as well as the changing role of Godzilla in the universe's world, and even the child/grandfather/minya relationship.
I actually agree with this and when I re-watched the movie myself back in January reached a similar conclusion. When X says it's the end of Godzilla, he's right, to a degree. It's the end of "classic Godzilla." Kitamura brought back a lot of franchise staples, albeit so redone in his style and vision it may as well be its own thing and paying respect to what came before while also laying it to rest. Basically guaranteeing that the next generation of Godzilla filmmakers would have to do something new if they wanted to continue the series in any sort of meaningful way.

In that respect I find it fitting one of the emphasized meanings of "Shin" is "New."
Yeah, I noticed this too. It really does feel like a grand hurrah for the Toho Godzilla. I honestly think it's gotten better with the Reinassance backing up this theme.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Gigantis wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:25 pm Is there any truth to the rumors that Ghidorah was suppose to be in this movie but he got replaced with Monster X? I keep hearing about it but it all sounds pretty dubious.
Considering that Monster X is a sort of psuedo reference to Monster Zero which was one of classic Ghidorah's subtitles I very much doubt it. Kitamura may have been new to the franchise but I think even he knew that a Godzilla anniversary film without the franchise's arch rival would've been too questionable.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:10 am
Jetty_Jags wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:55 am If final wars has anything resembling a theme I'd argue it would have to deal with generational differences and evolving legacies. The biggest example being the coup between the younger and older Xilliens, as well as the changing role of Godzilla in the universe's world, and even the child/grandfather/minya relationship.
I actually agree with this and when I re-watched the movie myself back in January reached a similar conclusion. When X says it's the end of Godzilla, he's right, to a degree. It's the end of "classic Godzilla." Kitamura brought back a lot of franchise staples, albeit so redone in his style and vision it may as well be its own thing and paying respect to what came before while also laying it to rest. Basically guaranteeing that the next generation of Godzilla filmmakers would have to do something new if they wanted to continue the series in any sort of meaningful way.

In that respect I find it fitting one of the emphasized meanings of "Shin" is "New."
Wow. Never thought of it that way. Just makes me love everything about FW even more!

On a side note, i’ve heard that MG was supposed to make an appearance in the film but was cut. I wonder what he would’ve looked like or what he would’ve done. Maybe MG was supposed to be in the role of Atragon? Or if Ozaki would’ve piloted it in the final battle?
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Jermobooka wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:22 am
Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:10 am
Jetty_Jags wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:55 am If final wars has anything resembling a theme I'd argue it would have to deal with generational differences and evolving legacies. The biggest example being the coup between the younger and older Xilliens, as well as the changing role of Godzilla in the universe's world, and even the child/grandfather/minya relationship.
I actually agree with this and when I re-watched the movie myself back in January reached a similar conclusion. When X says it's the end of Godzilla, he's right, to a degree. It's the end of "classic Godzilla." Kitamura brought back a lot of franchise staples, albeit so redone in his style and vision it may as well be its own thing and paying respect to what came before while also laying it to rest. Basically guaranteeing that the next generation of Godzilla filmmakers would have to do something new if they wanted to continue the series in any sort of meaningful way.

In that respect I find it fitting one of the emphasized meanings of "Shin" is "New."
Wow. Never thought of it that way. Just makes me love everything about FW even more!

On a side note, i’ve heard that MG was supposed to make an appearance in the film but was cut. I wonder what he would’ve looked like or what he would’ve done. Maybe MG was supposed to be in the role of Atragon? Or if Ozaki would’ve piloted it in the final battle?
I remember hearing back in the day that Kiryu was replaced by the Gotengo, but I don’t know if that has any truth to it.

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