The Heisei Timeline Explained

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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Ivo-goji » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:56 am

Plus it's one of the most common time travel story cliches ever: try to change the past will = create the past you were trying to change.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby DaruniaDancing » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:07 pm

I have no opinion yet on the Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah stuff discussed up thread, but it was really a relief to find this discussion. The time-travel storyline didn't hold water for me. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who had this reaction!

Edit: That said, I still enjoyed the storyline. It reminded me of Lost!

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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Kaeyas » Wed May 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Something I always wondered is was the original Godzilla also a Godzillasaurus? I have my doubts and here is why. Before becoming Heisei Godzilla, the Dino was a herbivore, while we are told in the Original Godzilla that it ate sea creatures and occasionally people before it was mutated by nuclear weapons. That leads me to believe that original Godzilla was probably not the same exact species of dinosaur, though probably similar...maybe the Godzillasaur on the island evolved differently to feed on plants because of lack of prey...I'm not sure but this opens up a whole new can of worms.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Destorogoji » Thu May 11, 2017 1:08 am

Kaeyas wrote:Something I always wondered is was the original Godzilla also a Godzillasaurus? I have my doubts and here is why. Before becoming Heisei Godzilla, the Dino was a herbivore, while we are told in the Original Godzilla that it ate sea creatures and occasionally people before it was mutated by nuclear weapons. That leads me to believe that original Godzilla was probably not the same exact species of dinosaur, though probably similar...maybe the Godzillasaur on the island evolved differently to feed on plants because of lack of prey...I'm not sure but this opens up a whole new can of worms.

I think the same thing.
The original Godzilla is a completely different animal, having different appearance, different behaviour, and even different motivations.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:53 am

Destorogoji wrote:
Kaeyas wrote:Something I always wondered is was the original Godzilla also a Godzillasaurus? I have my doubts and here is why. Before becoming Heisei Godzilla, the Dino was a herbivore, while we are told in the Original Godzilla that it ate sea creatures and occasionally people before it was mutated by nuclear weapons. That leads me to believe that original Godzilla was probably not the same exact species of dinosaur, though probably similar...maybe the Godzillasaur on the island evolved differently to feed on plants because of lack of prey...I'm not sure but this opens up a whole new can of worms.

I think the same thing.
The original Godzilla is a completely different animal, having different appearance, different behaviour, and even different motivations.

Yeah, G54 is a very different species. Perhaps Godzillasaurus is some sort of sub species?
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Cybermat47 » Thu May 11, 2017 6:15 am

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
Destorogoji wrote:
Kaeyas wrote:Something I always wondered is was the original Godzilla also a Godzillasaurus? I have my doubts and here is why. Before becoming Heisei Godzilla, the Dino was a herbivore, while we are told in the Original Godzilla that it ate sea creatures and occasionally people before it was mutated by nuclear weapons. That leads me to believe that original Godzilla was probably not the same exact species of dinosaur, though probably similar...maybe the Godzillasaur on the island evolved differently to feed on plants because of lack of prey...I'm not sure but this opens up a whole new can of worms.

I think the same thing.
The original Godzilla is a completely different animal, having different appearance, different behaviour, and even different motivations.

Yeah, G54 is a very different species. Perhaps Godzillasaurus is some sort of sub species?


In Godzilla VS Mechagodzilla II, we are told that Godzilla Junior is a herbivore, but then, in Godzilla VS Destoroyah, we are told that Junior has been hunting Whales. I highly doubt that any amount of mutation that Junior underwent could result in such a drastic change in diet. It's much more likely that Godzillasauruses, and by extension, Godzillas, are omnivorous. This is further evidenced by Godzilla Junior eating a hamburger, meat and all, in GVMGII.

In addition, there's no confirmation about Shodai Godzilla's diet, only the diet of the beast in the legends of Odo Island. While Professor Yamane named Shodai Godzilla after the legendary beast, there was little to suggest that the two were one and the same - in fact, given that Shodai Godzilla was awoken by hydrogen bomb tests, we can conclude that the legend was not about Shodai Godzilla.

On top of this, the Shodai Godzilla, Heisei Godzilla, and Godzilla Junior are all too similar to each other to not be Godzillasauruses. It's possible, and perhaps even likely, that Shodai is a different species of the Godzillasaurus genus, however.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Kaeyas » Sat May 13, 2017 8:40 pm

Cybermat47 wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
Destorogoji wrote:I think the same thing.
The original Godzilla is a completely different animal, having different appearance, different behaviour, and even different motivations.

Yeah, G54 is a very different species. Perhaps Godzillasaurus is some sort of sub species?


In Godzilla VS Mechagodzilla II, we are told that Godzilla Junior is a herbivore, but then, in Godzilla VS Destoroyah, we are told that Junior has been hunting Whales. I highly doubt that any amount of mutation that Junior underwent could result in such a drastic change in diet. It's much more likely that Godzillasauruses, and by extension, Godzillas, are omnivorous. This is further evidenced by Godzilla Junior eating a hamburger, meat and all, in GVMGII.

In addition, there's no confirmation about Shodai Godzilla's diet, only the diet of the beast in the legends of Odo Island. While Professor Yamane named Shodai Godzilla after the legendary beast, there was little to suggest that the two were one and the same - in fact, given that Shodai Godzilla was awoken by hydrogen bomb tests, we can conclude that the legend was not about Shodai Godzilla.

On top of this, the Shodai Godzilla, Heisei Godzilla, and Godzilla Junior are all too similar to each other to not be Godzillasauruses. It's possible, and perhaps even likely, that Shodai is a different species of the Godzillasaurus genus, however.


That's kind of what I meant kind of like how they recently discovered a plant eating theropod that they say was very closely related to raptors.

I think G54' and Heisei have enough differences (even if your using G84' as the comparison) to assume they are probably not the same exact species...closely related or of the same genus...Probably. I have often wondered what a Theropod like an Allosaurus or even a Spinosaurus might look like if they'd been mutated in the same manner as G. Be pretty interesting and I'm surprised toho has never used this idea for an opponent of G.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby eabaker » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:33 pm

I think the clear intent of the filmmakers was that the two - if they even intended them to be two different creatures at the time GvsK was made - were of the same species. For them to be different species wouldn't add anything meaningful to the narrative.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:39 pm

Maybe the Godzillasaurus is a evolved land species of G54's species?
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Sam » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:44 am

I think it's very easy to get caught up a bit too much in the Heisei timeline, and the havoc that Godzilla vs King Ghidorah plays with it in particular. Personally, I always felt that Omori wasn't thinking about every possible consequence when he conceived of the story, and it's not really worth worrying about too much.

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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby eabaker » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:46 am

Sam wrote:I think it's very easy to get caught up a bit too much in the Heisei timeline, and the havoc that Godzilla vs King Ghidorah plays with it in particular. Personally, I always felt that Omori wasn't thinking about every possible consequence when he conceived of the story, and it's not really worth worrying about too much.


Yeah, as much as the Heisei series may include more continuity-consciousness than the Showa flicks, it's not like these movies were pre-planned to interlink seamlessly.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Dawsbfiremind » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:26 pm

I read through all this, watched the films a couple of times, and finally drew it all down. Here ya go, the Heisei timeline explained!

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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby LegendZilla » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:40 pm

I have a question. While we fans in the west are perpetually baffled as to how the Heisei series is so fetishized in Japan, is it possible that the Japanese fan community feel the same way about the majority of us gushing over the Showa? I also ask if doing the latter makes us any different?
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:02 pm

LegendZilla wrote:I have a question. While we fans in the west are perpetually baffled as to how the Heisei series is so fetishized in Japan, is it possible that the Japanese fan community feel the same way about the majority of us gushing over the Showa? I also ask if doing the latter makes us any different?

What does this have to do with the topic?
I think you answered your own question. Honestly, I don't believe the Heisei series is so "fetishized" in Japan anymore, there seems to be a lot more Showa merchandise lately, and not to mention Shin is dominating everything and even the anime is creeping around with its promotional crossovers and gazillions of books.
I also don't think anyone is baffled :lol:
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby szmigiel » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:11 am

Was going to post this in the Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah thread, but since this is still here and sticked.

“Schrodinger Godzilla” is like the “grassy knoll” or “9/11 inside job” of Godzilla fandom.

What is “Schrodinger Godzilla”? Let’s start with an overview of the events of the film.

The movie starts with Godzilla being immobile since going into the ocean and trying to recover from the ANEB. The military task force which is dedicated to stopping Godzilla if he raises again, are watching him closely. Even when the time traveling UFO appears it checks the spot, the military notices this because they are closely monitoring Godzilla’s position. Then the characters time travel and return. Godzilla is now gone from his location at the start of the movie, and located two thousands of miles away in the Bering Sea. It also happens to be the area that they teleported the Godzilla to in the movie.

This is a plot hole and a time paradox, if Godzilla never existed as the dialog suggest, nobody that didn’t time travel would remember Godzilla. In fact the Japanese Government should be asking, what is Godzilla, and who are you people, and why is there a UFO parked outside of Toyko. Maybe once the change in history effects 1991, the Futurains explained to the government what Godzilla was, and showed them archive footage, having to explain everything again. Which we don’t see happen. Or since the time meddlers are still there it causes the weird paradox world, where people remember the events, but they didn’t happen, and there is no evidence they happened. Over time their memories will fade and eventually they will forget completely about Godzilla. Again this is never explained, we can only guess, just like we can only guess what would happen with time travel and the “Grandfather Effect” .

“Schrodinger Godzilla” is where people argue that since in the previous movie they state they have a hard time tracking Godzilla’s movements underwater when he is swimming, maybe Godzilla just decided to swim to the Bering Sea. To the spot he was teleported to two thousand miles away, just for the hell of it. Basically they are saying that everyone thought Godzilla was in one spot but nobody really checked to see if he was really there, so like Schrodinger Cat he was both there and not there at the same time. This is the linchpin to their arguments, that “Gojira” 54, “Return of Godzilla”, and “Godzilla Vs Biollante” all still happened. But everyone gets mixed up because Godzilla just decided to get up and move two thousand miles away after not moving for over two years at the same time people went back in time and teleported him to the Bering Sea.

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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Terasawa » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:46 am

szmigiel wrote:Was going to post this in the Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah thread, but since this is still here and sticked. -snip-


Funny, because I didn't see your comment because of activity in the GvKG thread, where (coincidentally?) today we started talking about time travel, again. I linked to a post by Zarm from last year, which highlighted the movie's own explanation for time travel, as well as a similar interpretation published in G-Fan in 1994.

But ultimately the SciFi Japan/Keith Aiken explanation is incorrect because the movie straight up contradicts some of his conjecture. Godzilla disappears once the time travelers depart on their voyage. By the time they return, Fujio has already confirmed to Wilson that Godzilla has vanished.

Aiken explains this as the government losing track of him underwater, ala Godzilla vs Biollante, but that's not shown to be the case in this film. In fact, in this film, Godzilla is twice located and photographed underwater by satellite, pre- and post-time travel.

Anyway, it's unlikely that Godzilla would have decided to go take a hike at the same moment people from the future attempt to erase him from history. Miki says that Godzilla has been inactive due to ANEB for at least 1000 days, since the events of GvB, and Emmy says that in her original time Godzilla only recovers in the 23rd century. To interpret the events of the movie as "Godzilla went for a swim to where he was transported in the Bering Sea as a dinosaur" is actually directly ignoring what the movie tells us is fact.

The Godzilla that appeared in the 80s disappeared from 1992 at the moment the time travelers went back to 1944. To quote the same article I quoted in the other thread, "The primary lesson is that the past cannot be altered but the future can be changed by time travel to the past. What does this mean? When the time travellers removed the Godzillasaurus from Lagos Island in 1944, their own past was not altered. The result of their effort did not become manifest until their own time, the time they left Japan, 1992. This is why memories of Godzilla persisted and nothing that had happened prior to their time voyage was altered upon their return." Tom Miller, the writer, justifies this as the movie's own logic: since time travel is a fictional device, there are no definite rules, and to impose the rules of one work's understanding of time travel on another (this film) does not work.

So in short: the Heisei Godzilla (as mutated on Lagos Island in the Castle Bravo test) existed up through the events of Godzilla vs Biollante and into the beginning of this film, but the Futurians' changes to 1944 erased this Godzilla in 1992, at the moment they departed. However, at that same moment, a new Heisei Godzilla (as mutated in the Bering Sea by the downed Soviet sub) came into being without anyone knowing. There are two Godzillas in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. They are both the same dinosaur that was on Lagos Island, but the meddling in time gives them two different origins as Godzilla.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby szmigiel » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:56 am

I think that is the movies biggest failing, not the time travel itself, but not explaining what "Removed from History" meant. It never clarify if the events of the 3 other films still happened the same or not.
Terasawa wrote:So in short: the Heisei Godzilla (as mutated on Lagos Island in the Castle Bravo test) existed up through the events of Godzilla vs Biollante and into the beginning of this film, but the Futurians' changes to 1944 erased this Godzilla in 1992, at the moment they departed. However, at that same moment, a new Heisei Godzilla (as mutated in the Bering Sea by the downed Soviet sub) came into being without anyone knowing. There are two Godzillas in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. They are both the same dinosaur that was on Lagos Island, but the meddling in time gives them two different origins as Godzilla.

But with the facts given that explanation fits the events of the film.

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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Terasawa » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:08 am

szmigiel wrote:It never clarify if the events of the 3 other films still happened the same or not.


It does. Miki says she sees Godzilla in the Bering Sea ice: “it’s the same as at Mt. Mihara!” (referring to her being brought aboard the helicopter to psychically monitor Godzilla in the previous film).

Terasawa wrote:So in short: the Heisei Godzilla (as mutated on Lagos Island in the Castle Bravo test) existed up through the events of Godzilla vs Biollante and into the beginning of this film, but the Futurians' changes to 1944 erased this Godzilla in 1992, at the moment they departed. However, at that same moment, a new Heisei Godzilla (as mutated in the Bering Sea by the downed Soviet sub) came into being without anyone knowing. There are two Godzillas in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. They are both the same dinosaur that was on Lagos Island, but the meddling in time gives them two different origins as Godzilla.

But with the facts given that explanation fits the events of the film.


I’m not sure I understand: do you mean Aiken’s interpretation? If so, then no, it doesn’t. Godzilla is immobile in 1992 and unrecovered from the ANEB as far in the future as the 22nd century: therefore it’s illogical to assume Godzilla up and relocated to the Bering Sea. Aiken’s conclusion is informed *only* by other films, which is wrong. The movie never tells us that the Godzilla in the Bering Sea is the same one that was in the Sea of Japan.
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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby szmigiel » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:16 am

Terasawa wrote:The movie never tells us that the Godzilla in the Bering Sea is the same one that was in the Sea of Japan.

Miki feels it is the same Godzilla. She gets visions of it even before the sub arrives.
Intesrting to note in the original storyboards, Godzilla is frozen in ice, he gets nuked by a missile and transforms, then attacks the sub. Don't know if Miki confirms she feels Godzilla presence in the original script since there doesn't seem to be Russian sub accident in the storyboards.

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Re: The Heisei Timeline Explained

Postby Terasawa » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:20 am

szmigiel wrote:
Terasawa wrote:The movie never tells us that the Godzilla in the Bering Sea is the same one that was in the Sea of Japan.

Miki feels it is the same Godzilla. She gets visions of it even before the sub arrives.


The two Godzillas have an identical origin (Lagos dinosaur) but are not the same version of Godzilla, as they were mutated under different circumstances. This is how Miki senses Godzilla. In the Japanese dialogue she never says “it’s the same Godzilla”: that’s Aiken’s conclusion based on his incorrect understanding of the movie.

In other words, there are two Godzillas. The one that existed in the Sea of Japan at the beginning of the movie is not the one that’s encountered by Shindo’s sub in the Bering Sea, despite both having been mutated into Godzilla from the Lagos dinosaur.
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