MonsterVerse on 4K

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Naruto65
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by Naruto65 »

Yeah, you can't screengrab HDR, so this is a good general way to see the differences.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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I wonder how the title screen looks now, given the already existing differences between the BR & 3D BR copies.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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Did the best buy steel-book already sell out? Anyone know?
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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Jetty_Jags wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:10 am Did the best buy steel-book already sell out? Anyone know?
From what I'm seeing on-line, yes.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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What I take from all this :

1. The 4K disc can show a brighter picture than the Blu-ray, if you have a display that can handle HDR well.

2. The improvement is unlikely to be demonstrable unless you are watching an HDR-capable screen.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by omgitsgodzilla »

However those screencaps were done, it does look like a subtle but noticeable improvement. Of course it's not an exact reflection of how the film would look on an HDR display, but I wouldn't mind seeing the whole film looking like it does in those caps. Too bad they don't compare some of the more problematic scenes, though

Also, the UHD reveals infinitesimally more picture area than the Blu-ray. Can't believe the Blu was CROPPED this whole time
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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Great Hierophant wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:46 pm What I take from all this :

1. The 4K disc can show a brighter picture than the Blu-ray, if you have a display that can handle HDR well.

2. The improvement is unlikely to be demonstrable unless you are watching an HDR-capable screen.
What EVERYONE should take from all of this is:

1) You must have a 4K UHD TV with HDR (early 4K sets don't have it) and a 4K-Blu-ray player to get anything out of tomorrow's release.

2) Hang onto your old 3D version of the Blu-ray until you own the above hardware.
Last edited by G1985 on Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by Naruto65 »

Defintiely.

And please for the love of God everyone. If you have an HDR setting turned on, TURN IT OFF. That setting simulates HDR and interferes/disables with your True HDR experience, which is automatically played from the disc.
Last edited by Naruto65 on Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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so basically, it's midway where we wanted the birghtness to actually be, but its not major. idk if its even worth my money if its an upscale and just slightly brighter. meh. might use other methods to see how it looks in person first

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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I got my 4K copy from Best Buy tonight and just finished it about a half hour ago. I can confirm that HDR does fix the problem on the standard Blu-ray but keep in mind your experience may be different depending on your set up. I have a LG CX OLED for my TV and my BD player is the Panasonic UB-820 which is their second best model and the picture looked amazing. There where a few dark spots but nothing to bad.

It really sucks that if you want to get the best experience for the movie you either have to have a 3DTV or a 4KTV with HDR. Hopefully WB will go back and remaster the BD for those that don't have either setup.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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Got mine today. I have my fresh, top of the line 4K player, and my sound bar, top dollar 4K TV is next week. I'll wait until then to unleash this bad boy. Everything I've seen and heard is promising...and I was never someone who was shuddering over how "bad" the BR looked, it just seemed like a noticeably dark transfer on my lower-tier displays(on my friend's 1080P projector, there were practically no flaws)....some of it is I think the film was inherently designed for a huge screen of high quality, a little TOO tailored for the full theatrical experience.

But everything indicates that the 4K Disc massages a lot of those issues.

Also...it was ALWAYS going to be an upscale. Virtually every major VFX heavy blockbuster of the last 20 years has had CGI and VFX shots consistently rendered at 2K, and most have 2K final masters.

You have Abrams and other filmmakers making such a big deal of shooting on 35MM for Star Wars or making a big deal of shooting in 6K for Avengers Endgame or 8K for Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Sure, the 'capture' of the image is super high resolution...but then it all gets ingested into the computer for digital color timing done with a 2K Digital Intermediate, and the copious amounts of CGI shots are all rendered at 2K resolution...and the final master is finished at 2K resolution....by the end of it you barely retain any added benefit of that initial 35MM/6K/8K shooting.

Someone like Christopher Nolan shoots on film(and often, large format film beyond 35MM) and finishes/color times his films photochemically. The only parts of his films scanned are those that require CGI...and he always goes out of his ways to use minimal CGI in his films because he doesn't want it all down-scanned for VFX work. When he DOES have CGI, ever since The Dark Knight, he has consistently had his VFX work rendered at higher resolutions(4K-8K) so that those digitally scanned and altered shots are still yielding the highest quality possible in his final negative.

His 4K Discs are TRUE 4K film presentations. Almost all other 4K discs are merely upscales in some fashion or another.

Something like Sonic was finished in 4K but the CGI was still being rendered in 2K. It is definitely a step in the right direction though, and it pays dividends when you get to experience the film on 4K disc.

James Cameron is evidently going 4K Top-to-bottom for the Avatar sequels...while the original had a full 2K pipeline. Him doubling the capturing, resolution, and rendering across the board for the sequels will yield a truly mind-blowing experience.
Last edited by Chrispy_G on Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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I’ll echo Chrispy’s post by stating that even 2019’s GKOTM was finished in 2K, thus the 4K Blu-ray is itself an “upscale”.

This is why something like the recent 4K release of The Lord of the Rings is something to be excited for because they rescanned the entire OCN (Original Camera Negative) and did a whole new (consistent) color grade. The VFX were still rendered in 2K but they had the original composites that were simply upscaled and re-integrated.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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goji1986 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:49 amThis is why something like the recent 4K release of The Lord of the Rings is something to be excited for because they rescanned the entire OCN (Original Camera Negative) and did a whole new (consistent) color grade. The VFX were still rendered in 2K but they had the original composites that were simply upscaled and re-integrated.

Except this didn't actually happen, and in fact, that news may have just been Thedigitalbits talking out of their ass; the Ultra HD discs of the films are all upscales with a new HDR grade, and a heaping helping of extra DNR slathered on some shots.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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Joseph Goodman wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:29 am
Except this didn't actually happen, and in fact, that news may have just been Thedigitalbits talking out of their ass; the Ultra HD discs of the films are all upscales with a new HDR grade, and a heaping helping of extra DNR slathered on some shots.
Source for that? Peter Jackson talked about the process here: https://youtu.be/yn21u6j6Ywc

I feel like that would have been pretty well-known once the releases happened. They did say that a few shots were total upscales, but not the whole thing.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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Chrispy_G wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:21 pmAlso...it was ALWAYS going to be an upscale. Virtually every major VFX heavy blockbuster of the last 20 years has had CGI and VFX shots consistently rendered at 2K, and most have 2K final masters...His 4K Discs are TRUE 4K film presentations. Almost all other 4K discs are merely upscales in some fashion or another... etc etc
I understand, but again - people get SO HUNG UP on resolution, the LEAST IMPORTANT part of the UHD format. High Dynamic Range and the Wider Color Gamut (UHD and WCG) are much more important (and noticeable) benefits of the UHD format. Even if everything was stuck forever at 2K resolutions, that would be fine for anyone viewing their displays at greater than 3X the screen height of the display (the vast majority of people). At that distance, the difference between 2K 4K and 8K is essentially invisible. However, the improvements brought by HDR and WCG (assuming your display is capable) are noticeable from ANY seating distance.

Sorry for the rant. I've just been involved with blind testing / evaluating of this stuff, and people always get hung up on the least important parts of the visual equation.

Added in 3 minutes 48 seconds:
Joseph Goodman wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:29 am
goji1986 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:49 amThis is why something like the recent 4K release of The Lord of the Rings is something to be excited for because they rescanned the entire OCN (Original Camera Negative) and did a whole new (consistent) color grade. The VFX were still rendered in 2K but they had the original composites that were simply upscaled and re-integrated.

Except this didn't actually happen, and in fact, that news may have just been Thedigitalbits talking out of their ass; the Ultra HD discs of the films are all upscales with a new HDR grade, and a heaping helping of extra DNR slathered on some shots.
I doubt it - I know Bill Hunt personally, and if anyone understands this stuff, it's Bill. Not that you may not have a point about how the LOTR films look (I haven't looked; nothing bores me more quickly that sword and sorcery fantasy) but I do know Bill does his absolute best to put out accurate information. I've never known him to talk "out his ass."

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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goji1986 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:17 amSource for that? Peter Jackson talked about the process here: https://youtu.be/yn21u6j6Ywc
I feel like that would have been pretty well-known once the releases happened. They did say that a few shots were total upscales, but not the whole thing.
(Apologies, mods, for derailing a thread I previously complained was derailing another thread)

You'll notice in the video you linked that no specific details are provided as to what the remastering process entailed, with no reference to any new scanning work being done. In light of the confusion as to what actually was done, some users on Blu-ray.com attempted to nail down some specific details. First one user contacted Warner Home Video for the original press releases, which said nothing about Weta having "went back and scanned the original camera negative in 4K, then scanned the VFX film-out elements (for VFX shots that were finished on film) in 4K, and upsampled the VFX shots that were finished digitally (in 2K resolution) to create a brand new 4K Digital Intermediate".

Another user contacted Park Road Post, where the work was done, and received this respone:
"Hi XXXX,

We unfortunately don’t have any press materials that we can share, but understand why you asked. What I can confirm is that you were right in that non-filmed out 2K VFX were upscaled to 4K to create a new 4K Digital Intermediate. Most of the source data come from 2K data while some of the FOTR theatrical was a 4K scan.

Have a wonderful remainder of your day, thanks again for your kind words!

All the best,
XXXXX"
Now, the report that they "went back and scanned the original camera negative in 4K, then scanned the VFX film-out elements (for VFX shots that were finished on film) in 4K, and upsampled the VFX shots that were finished digitally (in 2K resolution) to create a brand new 4K Digital Intermediate" appears to have originated entirely from Thedigitalbits, not any actual Warner or Weta press material. Comparing the response from Park Road Post that the Blu-ray.com forum received with the claim above, what appears to have happened is that Thedigitalbits (which used to be reliable site back in the early DVD days) may have heard what was done with the FoTR theatrical cut*, and erroneously extrapolated that to mean the whole trilogy was remastered in such a manner.

*the theatrical version of FoTR was not a total Digital Intermediate finish, I forget what percentage of it was/wasn't; the extended version, and the next two films, were %100 D.I. finishes at 2k.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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OK taking a look at the Kaleidescape UHD version of Godzilla (2014). It looks and sounds terrific; a definite upgrade from the Blu-ray disc. Detail is improved due to the higher bitrate, even though it's a 2K upscale. Colors are still muted, but of course, that's by design. That said, the scenes where saturated colors are featured are richer and deeper than the Blu-ray.

The biggest difference is the new HDR grade - played back on a system that's been properly calibrated, shadow detail is excellent, and there is a tremendous "pop" to the image missing from the Blu-ray. Of course, this is going to be dependent on the quality of the display and its HDR decoding capabilities (which is closely tied to your set's native contrast ratio). The film is still dark, but the highlights are more pronounced, and there is more detail to be revealed in the darkness if your display is capable (and calibrated properly).

NOTE: most sets default to a "VIVID" or "BRIGHT" mode out of the box; that is exactly the WRONG mode for a film such as this. If your set has it, set it to a "REFERENCE" or "THX" or "CINEMA" mode to see the dynamic range intended by Edwards.

The ATMOS mix is tremendous; truly reference quality.

My system, for reference:

JVC DLA-RS3000 projector, HDR video processing handled by a Lumagen processor, professionally calibrated by Kris Deering (www.deepdiveav.com)
144" Stewart StudioTek130 2.35:1 "Scope" screen
Trinnov / JBL SDP75 24 channel Surround Processor
9.4.6 surround system with Revel Salon2 Mains, Revel Voice2 Center, Revel Gem2 surrounds, Revel C763L height speakers
JBL Synthesis SSW2 subwoofers x 4
JBL Cinema amps powering subs and surrounds
ATI AT6003 Reference Amp powering LCR

Hope that's helpful!

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by Chrispy_G »

John Schuermann wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:51 pm Sorry for the rant. I've just been involved with blind testing / evaluating of this stuff, and people always get hung up on the least important parts of the visual equation.
No worries at all. I went on a rant first. Just as you mentioned that nobody really pays attention to the HDR and WCG(which, admittedly, depends on how top tier your set up is)....it perplexes me how people will sort of arbitrarily throw out "Stinks that it is just a 2K upscale" as if that is NOT the near-universal standard for modern blockbusters.

Not trying to pick a fight with anyone, just saying that some people don't realize just how common the "2K upscale for 4K" scenario happens, and that there are some big benefits to 4K UHD beyond the raw resolution, as you said.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by John Schuermann »

Chrispy_G wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:54 pmNo worries at all. I went on a rant first. Just as you mentioned that nobody really pays attention to the HDR and WCG(which, admittedly, depends on how top tier your set up is)....it perplexes me how people will sort of arbitrarily throw out "Stinks that it is just a 2K upscale" as if that is NOT the near-universal standard for modern blockbusters.

Not trying to pick a fight with anyone, just saying that some people don't realize just how common the "2K upscale for 4K" scenario happens, and that there are some big benefits to 4K UHD beyond the raw resolution, as you said.
Exactly. The fact that a film is a 2K upscale doesn't mean you don't get all the other benefits of the UHD format.

What's interesting is that Netflix and other streaming platforms often do offer native 4K programming; in fact, if you want to submit original content to Netflix you have to meet their minimum standards, which includes all of the UHD picture enhancements. They have a list of "Netflix approved" cameras you need to shoot with, and one of the major criteria is dynamic range.

That said, with a projection system like mine it IS possible to see a real difference with native 4K content, since the screen size is so large and I'm sitting close enough to it to see the extra detail. As I mentioned, the threshold is about 3X screen height, and I'm sitting at 2.5X screen height.

And it's also true that we are seeing more and more content that is native 4K, or derived from a 4K DI. And it's also also true that even 2K content can look better if the source was a 4K or 6K camera (vs. a native 2K camera). The cleaner the source material, the better the finished product will (or can) look.
Last edited by John Schuermann on Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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