MonsterVerse on 4K

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G1985
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by G1985 »

Joseph Goodman wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:41 pm My system, for reference:

JVC DLA-RS3000 projector, HDR video processing handled by a Lumagen processor, professionally calibrated by Kris Deering (www.deepdiveav.com)
144" Stewart StudioTek130 2.35:1 "Scope" screen
Trinnov / JBL SDP75 24 channel Surround Processor
9.4.6 surround system with Revel Salon2 Mains, Revel Voice2 Center, Revel Gem2 surrounds, Revel C763L height speakers
JBL Synthesis SSW2 subwoofers x 4
JBL Cinema amps powering subs and surrounds
ATI AT6003 Reference Amp powering LCR
HDR color me impressed.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by John Schuermann »

G1985 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:32 amHDR color me impressed.
A perk of my "job." I run a home theater company on the side, and we are famous for doing blind comparisons between various home theater products. When you do the comparisons blind and take the time to level the playing field (equalizing such things as brightness for projectors, or loudness for speakers), it's interesting how these things can turn out. Last year a $9K JVC projector was clearly preferred over a $25K Sony. Harman speakers (Revel / JBL) continually win our speaker shootouts. When you do comparitive tests blind, people are not biased by brand reputation, price, or aesthetics. As owner of the company, whatever wins ends up in my house :) Whatever ends up as "best for the money" goes into our downtown showroom.

Home theater can be an expensive hobby, so being able to derive income from it (and write it off on my taxes) has been nice 🙂

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by goji1986 »

Got my copy and popped it into my player. Went right to the Hawaii sequence and was at first very disappointed- crap, dark again!!

THEN, I double checked my TV’s settings and discovered I hadn’t fully calibrated it for HDR in a bright room (my family room gets a lot of daylight). Presto! Much clearer image and lots of details now visible in the shadows.

I have a 2018 55” TCL with Roku built in and a Sony UBP-X700 player.
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Naruto65
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by Naruto65 »

Godzilla 2014 4K is now responsible for people realizing they have been watching HDR the wrong way, or completely not enabled, lol. It's a blessing in disguise!

goji1986
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by goji1986 »

Naruto65 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:16 pm Godzilla 2014 4K is now responsible for people realizing they have been watching HDR the wrong way, or completely not enabled, lol. It's a blessing in disguise!
Indeed! To be clear, I HAD calibrated the TV when I first bought it but it was before I had a 4K player and any access to HDR content via Disney Plus and Netflix. One of the weirdest settings I discovered? The default HDR setting is "Dark HDR". NOT gonna work with G14!
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by John Schuermann »

The thing about HDR is that it was supposed to be an absolute value mapped to a specific brightness level of an HDR capable set. Problem is, all sets are not created equal. HDR can be mastered at a variety of brightness levels - from 200 nits all the way up to 2000, or even 5000 nits (nits are the units used to measure brightness). But most sets are not bright enough to hit these numbers. Or some are bright enough, but have poor contrast which means that blacks will look more like greys. Dynamic range is all about the difference between black and white, which is all inter-related with HDR. If a set has high brightness but poor contrast, the HDR image will appear flat and washed out. This is from a Consumer Reports article, which gets it right:

"Better-performing HDR TVs typically generate at least 600 nits of peak brightness, with top performers hitting 1,000 nits or more. But many HDR TVs produce only 100 to 300 nits, which is really not enough to deliver an HDR experience.

With an underpowered TV, the fire of a rocket launch becomes a single massive white flare. With a brighter television, you’d see more intense, lifelike flames, as if you were really there.

“The benefits of HDR are often lost with mediocre displays,” Ciacci says."

This is true, and to solve that problem a technology called "tone-mapping" needs to be brought into play. Projectors in particular need help with HDR (you are lucky to get anywhere near 100 nits of light output) and MUST employ tone-mapping to get HDR content to display properly. The same is true for flat panels with low or moderate light output. Without tone-mapping, some HDR content can appear too dark, or on the other extreme, light areas of the picture can get "clipped," where detail gets blown out and lost. This all depends on the brightness level that HDR material was mastered at, which can be all over the map. Some is mastered at 1000 nits, some much lower, some much higher. It's still a bit of a wild-west out there, as all of this is still being standardized. Your set is supposed to read the metadata that's included with the content, but even if the metadata is read properly, that doesn't mean your set is displaying it (or tone-mapping it) properly.

Tone-mapping is the art and science of matching the HDR content to the actual brightness level of the display being used. My JVC projector, for example, gets nowhere near 1000 nits of brightness. Right now, JVC is the ONLY projector manufacturer that has tone-mapping built in; for that reason JVC projectors can properly display HDR content by tone-mapping those super-bright 1000 nit highlights down to the projector's actual light output of around 100 nits. If done properly, this can be very seamless and impressive. In my case, I'm using an outboard Lumagen video processor calibrated by Kris Deering that handles HDR tone-mapping even better than the JVC does natively (but it's not an inexpensive option).

Proper tone-mapping is also key to getting HDR to display properly on many LCD and OLED sets. Problem is, most manufacturers ignore this, or reserve such capabilities for top of the line models. I've seen some sets where engaging the HDR mode actually results in LOWER contrast images, which is opposite of what you should be getting with HDR.

Goji1986 is experiencing part of what I'm talking about. As I mentioned at top, HDR was supposed to be an absolute value, and all your set had to do was match its brightness output to the content - no user intervention required. But that hasn't been the case. The "Dark HDR" setting that Goji is referring to is probably a form of tone-mapping.

For anyone interested in ways around these limitations, my friend Kris Deering at Sound and Vision magazine wrote some definitive articles on tone-mapping, and how Panasonic is addressing this issue in certain of their 4K UHD Blu-ray players:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ ... yer-review

From his article:

"...we’ll first need to discuss the specifics of HDR. This relatively new format was designed to leverage the higher light output capability of today’s displays—a capability that was wasted on most of the programs we’ve been watching for years. Before HDR, consumer media was mastered for display at 30 foot-lamberts (approximately 100 nits) brightness, which is on the dim side for most flat-panel TVs. HDR10, the most basic HDR format and one that’s mandated for inclusion on all UHD Blu-ray discs, supports brightness levels up to 10,000 nits! Granted, we have not yet seen programs graded at that brightness level, but we have seen some that were graded on mastering displays capable of up to 4,000 nits, which is far beyond the capability of any consumer TV on the market.

So how do you display content mastered at 4,000 nits on a display capable of only 25 percent of that brightness or less? Tone mapping. SDR content is mastered using what we commonly call gamma. This system measures the peak white output of your display and then balances the grayscale intensity to that level. HDR, in contrast, uses absolute values that are meant to map directly to the display with no wiggle room for its overall light output. To properly show content with a higher brightness level than the display is capable of hitting, tone mapping is used.

The most basic way to describe this process is that the display shows the content as intended for as much as its brightness capability will allow. After that point, any remaining detail that exists in the program gets “rolled off.” This compresses information at the upper end of the brightness range so that you are not just clipping the signal. If you were to graph the response, it would almost look like a crossover filter in an audio system. The problem, however, is that there is no standard of any kind for tone mapping, so every TV and projector manufacturer handles it differently."

Added in 10 minutes 54 seconds:
For those not totally bored, here's a great primer on the whole subject of HDR and WCG (Wide Color Gamut):

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/hdr-explained

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GodzillaFan1996
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by GodzillaFan1996 »

The super dark film issue is more of a "TV" problem than anything else. If you watch the blu ray copy on a 4k projector (mine is set up for 117.5 inches), it looks fine. Heck, most 4k projectors don't have hdr and the blu ray and 4k copies of the film look pretty much the same in brightness and contrast to me and the film is still very vibrant and has no crushed blacks. I think it's the limited technology of the tv format, not the film scan/master itself.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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So if I'm reading this right, the only way to watch G14 without the darkness is to buy a mother fucking projector????

Jesus Christ, Warner Bros, you had one fucking job...
Last edited by Spuro on Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by canofhumdingers »

No. I don’t know what GodzillaFan1996 is trying to claim. Modern TVs can produce vastly wider ranges of brightness and contrast than any projector could ever hope. To say it’s a “tv problem” and that using a projector fixes it is to not understand AT ALL how TVs or projectors work. I’m glad he’s happy with how the film looks on his system but, no, you do not need to buy a projector for this disc. And if calibrated and displayed correctly, the standard blu and 4K UHD disc should not look identical.

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Jet Faguar
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by Jet Faguar »

Watched the 4K on my tablet (Samsung Galaxy Tab S6) and looks crazily better than the blu-ray. Shame the latter wasn't corrected.
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the-killer-wc
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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So dumb question, is the digital code the same as in the blurays or is it also adjusted to look like in the 4k version? because if its the same old version then I have now an extra godzilla 2014 digital version

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G1985
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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GodzillaFan1996 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:11 pm The super dark film issue is more of a "TV" problem than anything else. If you watch the blu ray copy on a 4k projector (mine is set up for 117.5 inches), it looks fine. Heck, most 4k projectors don't have hdr and the blu ray and 4k copies of the film look pretty much the same in brightness and contrast to me and the film is still very vibrant and has no crushed blacks.
Kaiju-King42 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 pm So if I'm reading this right, the only way to watch G14 without the darkness is to buy a mother skreeonking projector????
I'm giving both of you your own facepalms. And then I'm tossing in two more, just because I might need to use them later.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

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G1985 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:00 pm
GodzillaFan1996 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:11 pm The super dark film issue is more of a "TV" problem than anything else. If you watch the blu ray copy on a 4k projector (mine is set up for 117.5 inches), it looks fine. Heck, most 4k projectors don't have hdr and the blu ray and 4k copies of the film look pretty much the same in brightness and contrast to me and the film is still very vibrant and has no crushed blacks.
Kaiju-King42 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:37 pm So if I'm reading this right, the only way to watch G14 without the darkness is to buy a mother skreeonking projector????
I'm giving both of you your own facepalms. And then I'm tossing in two more, just because I might need to use them later.

Let's uh...at least try to have substantial disagreements and not just posts like this?
the-killer-wc wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:53 pm So dumb question, is the digital code the same as in the blurays or is it also adjusted to look like in the 4k version? because if its the same old version then I have now an extra godzilla 2014 digital version
It is indeed a 4K digital copy.
Last edited by UltramanGoji on Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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the-killer-wc
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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by the-killer-wc »

Oh goody thank you, I don't have a drive on my pc (never got around to install one) so then I can get the thing again and see it in it.

OK so the 4k version of the movie replaced my regular HD version in here, but even from memory i must say, the imagine is much clearer than what I remember. Which is fantastic I'm loving this.


So I paid for HBO max to see Godzilla vs Kong the whole month, and I notice they had the godzilla 2014 in it, went to compare and yep they have the bluray version. So here is a simple comparison of the digital versions of the movie... or something I dont know.

here is a simple comparison.
BR
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4k
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Last edited by the-killer-wc on Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MonsterVerse on 4K

Post by Chrispy_G »

I hope we can get a nice MonsterVerse 4K Box Set at the end of this. Nothing crazy or extravagant. Two standard 4K cases in a slip-case would be nice.

Case 1 - Disc 1 and 2 - Kong and Godzilla
Case 2 - Disc 3, 4, and 5 - King of the Monsters, GvK, and a new Bonus Disc including all archival bonus features for the 4 films, plus perhaps some additional goodies(like the Takarada scene)

I would be all over it, just to have the 4 films in 2 compact cases instead of spread across 4 cases.
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