Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby realinvaderdesign » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:29 am

Yes, what ever would we do with such great contributions from you such as the nodding-in-agreement type posts that add nothing to the conversation and the laughable "unless you are watching two different prints of these movies at once you aren't going to notice" as some kind of defense for mediocrity.


Yes, cause complaining on a godzilla forum by itself contributes alot too.
but in all honesty, im sorry, whod of thunk my old post would touch a nerve this bad, I apologize my dude, truly these transfers are on the same level as vhs, I should be ashamed, shunned and banished for having the opinion of the general audience and not a cinephile who wants the saturation levels digitally enhanced just to make a bunch of b movies look slightly brighter.

Stay posetive champ :)
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Tamura » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:42 am

Folks, it’s useless criticizing Toho’s crummy, old HD transfers. They look better than VHS, so they’re good enough.

Every single day Vinegar Syndrome releases a new 4K restoration of a several thousand dollar 70s porno from its original negative is another sad day for a franchise that deserves a lot more.
Last edited by Tamura on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby GodzFire » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:17 pm

Godzamera wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comments/dkuys1/godzilla_vs_mechagodzilla_1974_sony_dvd_transfer/


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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Space Hunter M » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:41 pm

GodzFire wrote:
Godzamera wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comments/dkuys1/godzilla_vs_mechagodzilla_1974_sony_dvd_transfer/


Why do I have a feeling Create_Greatness is Chrispy_G?

The great thing about Reddit is that things that were already readily apparent about people's behavior is outright confirmed by their other social delvings spelled out on their /u/ page. :lol:
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Godzamera » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:45 pm

Tamura wrote:Every single day Vinegar Syndrome releases a new 4K restoration of a several thousand dollar 70s porno from its original negative is another sad day for a franchise that deserves a lot more.


Added in 23 minutes 29 seconds:
https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comm ... _the_same/

Added in 44 minutes 51 seconds:
https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comm ... romonster/
GODZILLA BOX

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Rody » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:45 pm

I'm starting to get depressed... :lol: -_- It strikes me as outright bizarre how Toho can be pumping the gas on their international presence while utterly failing to treat the actual films they're promoting with more care.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby G-MAN » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:50 pm

Godzamera wrote:
Tamura wrote:Every single day Vinegar Syndrome releases a new 4K restoration of a several thousand dollar 70s porno from its original negative is another sad day for a franchise that deserves a lot more.


Added in 23 minutes 29 seconds:
https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comm ... _the_same/

Added in 44 minutes 51 seconds:
https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comm ... romonster/


And people wonder why I think criterion didn't care as much about this set. As more could've been done with these as shown numerous times from adjusting the colors.

Added in 3 minutes 25 seconds:
Rody wrote:I'm starting to get depressed... :lol: -_- It strikes me as outright bizarre how Toho can be pumping the gas on their international presence while utterly failing to treat the actual films they're promoting with more care.


For a company as strict as toho can be and outright abuses with how they handle stuff it's never unexpected but it's never ceases to amaze me how often they shoe how little care or respect they have for their flagship franchise.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Godzamera » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:16 pm

GODZILLA BOX

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Chrispy_G » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:21 am

Space Hunter M wrote:
GodzFire wrote:
Godzamera wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comments/dkuys1/godzilla_vs_mechagodzilla_1974_sony_dvd_transfer/


Why do I have a feeling Create_Greatness is Chrispy_G?

The great thing about Reddit is that things that were already readily apparent about people's behavior is outright confirmed by their other social delvings spelled out on their /u/ page. :lol:


I don't like Reddit, too many lefties :P

Added in 2 hours 36 minutes 23 seconds:
For the record, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Toho will complete 4K restorations of every film, and that it would be in their best interests to make them available on physical media at some point, and to allow international distributors to release them.

They did the original film and King Kong vs Godzilla. They did a minute of each film as a test. Shin was given a 4K physical release in Japan. Something tells me they will do it and the most likely target would be 2024.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:01 am

There are a few variables to consider, but I think that's probably the best we can hope for while staying realistic.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Tamura » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:54 am

The “one minute of every film in 4K” was a marketing gimmick to cash in on Shin, simple as that. Not a sign of serious restorations to come. The featurette was created a few years ago and only two films have been restored. Pulling Son of Godzilla - probably the same flawed low-contrast print as before, with all the missing frames - scanning one minute of it in 4K, and putting it back in storage for a few more years just isn’t how serious digitization and restoration begins. If any serious work is being done - selection and piecing together of elements, digitization, restoration - it hasn’t been reported in the West, at least.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, though, it is interesting that none of this is ever reported in the West... not the gimmicky featurette, not the 4K restorations, not the new Champion transfers... there are long, multi-part articles and interviews about the 4K restorations in Japanese online. Do they ever get translated and appear on SciFi Japan? No. Is this due to a Toho-imposed news blackout, or a lack of interest or technical knowledge by an English-speaking fanbase that mostly only cares if a Blu-Ray looks better than VHS? Who knows.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Terasawa » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 am

ITT: you're only disappointed in the HiVision transfers because "you have/have seen them already," not because they're deeply flawed.

In other words, stop acting so entitled for wanting these films to look like -well- film.

realinvaderdesign wrote:but in all honesty, im sorry, whod of thunk my old post would touch a nerve this bad, I apologize my dude, truly these transfers are on the same level as vhs, I should be ashamed, shunned and banished for having the opinion of the general audience and not a cinephile who wants the saturation levels digitally enhanced just to make a bunch of b movies look slightly brighter.


Lots of straw men in this quote:

  • No one is saying these transfers "are on the same level as vhs". What is being said, which you're very clearly misunderstanding, is that these transfers are more than a decade old; made using low-contrast 35mm prints (not necessarily a good source for a solid transfer); and using equipment that best served Toho with digital transfers of 28 films in the shortest possible time (and not for the best possible quality).
  • I don't think anyone is trying to shame you for an opinion. There is an attempt to inform. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, which is apparently that these transfers are good enough for you. If that's the case, fine, but you're gravely mistaken if you believe that means these are actually high-quality transfers, especially because you've only seen even worse transfers of these films.
  • "the saturation levels digitally enhanced". Oh boy. Um, well if that's the extent of your understanding of film restoration then no wonder you're pleased with the Toho HiVision garbage. The root of the problem is twofold: the materials used for the transfers and the transfers themselves. Adjusting the "saturation levels" is about the least one can do to improve the HiVisions; also, apparently, this is all that Criterion has done. No amount of digital enhancements done in 2019 will add definition missing from these awful HD-res transfers. This comment alone honestly shows that you don't know what you're talking about.
  • "just to make a bunch of b movies look slightly brighter." Actually most of the Toho HiVisions are too bright already. But that's not the point I wanna make. You consider these a "bunch of b movies" when in fact a number of the films in this set were made using A-budgets (in Japan) and produced using techniques and film technology that rivaled what Hollywood was doing and using at the time. Consider the Oxberry 1200, which August Ragone calls "the most advanced optical printer in the world [in 1963]": Eiji Tsuburaya ordered one from the Oxberry Company (for ~$500,000, hardly "b movie" budgeting there) for use at Toho and with his own company. At that point, the only other film studio in the world that owned one of its own was Disney's.

    In other words, you're doing a disservice to these films by underselling the achievements of those who worked on them. Toho was a world-class film studio in the '60s. Of course the movies are sometimes silly and the special effects primitive by today's standards, but that doesn't mean they were "b movies." The cheap-ass HiVision transfers are similarly doing a disservice to these films, by "rewarding" today's audiences with a visual style that makes these films look a whole hell of a lot cheaper than they actually were.

If you're going to try to be present your opinion as fact, please at least attack the actual arguments and not the ones you make up in your own head.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Goji » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:41 am

There’s a reason I didn’t even bother, Terasawa. Dude K’O’d himself in one magnificently ignorant post.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby realinvaderdesign » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:45 am

Terasawa wrote:ITT: you're only disappointed in the HiVision transfers because "you have/have seen them already," not because they're deeply flawed.

In other words, stop acting so entitled for wanting these films to look like -well- film.

realinvaderdesign wrote:but in all honesty, im sorry, whod of thunk my old post would touch a nerve this bad, I apologize my dude, truly these transfers are on the same level as vhs, I should be ashamed, shunned and banished for having the opinion of the general audience and not a cinephile who wants the saturation levels digitally enhanced just to make a bunch of b movies look slightly brighter.


Lots of straw men in this quote:

  • No one is saying these transfers "are on the same level as vhs". What is being said, which you're very clearly misunderstanding, is that these transfers are more than a decade old; made using low-contrast 35mm prints (not necessarily a good source for a solid transfer); and using equipment that best served Toho with digital transfers of 28 films in the shortest possible time (and not for the best possible quality).
  • I don't think anyone is trying to shame you for an opinion. There is an attempt to inform. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, which is apparently that these transfers are good enough for you. If that's the case, fine, but you're gravely mistaken if you believe that means these are actually high-quality transfers, especially because you've only seen even worse transfers of these films.
  • "the saturation levels digitally enhanced". Oh boy. Um, well if that's the extent of your understanding of film restoration then no wonder you're pleased with the Toho HiVision garbage. The root of the problem is twofold: the materials used for the transfers and the transfers themselves. Adjusting the "saturation levels" is about the least one can do to improve the HiVisions; also, apparently, this is all that Criterion has done. No amount of digital enhancements done in 2019 will add definition missing from these awful HD-res transfers. This comment alone honestly shows that you don't know what you're talking about.
  • "just to make a bunch of b movies look slightly brighter." Actually most of the Toho HiVisions are too bright already. But that's not the point I wanna make. You consider these a "bunch of b movies" when in fact a number of the films in this set were made using A-budgets (in Japan) and produced using techniques and film technology that rivaled what Hollywood was doing and using at the time. Consider the Oxberry 1200, which August Ragone calls "the most advanced optical printer in the world [in 1963]": Eiji Tsuburaya ordered one from the Oxberry Company (for ~$500,000, hardly "b movie" budgeting there) for use at Toho and with his own company. At that point, the only other film studio in the world that owned one of its own was Disney's.

    In other words, you're doing a disservice to these films by underselling the achievements of those who worked on them. Toho was a world-class film studio in the '60s. Of course the movies are sometimes silly and the special effects primitive by today's standards, but that doesn't mean they were "b movies." The cheap-ass HiVision transfers are similarly doing a disservice to these films, by "rewarding" today's audiences with a visual style that makes these films look a whole hell of a lot cheaper than they actually were.

If you're going to try to be present your opinion as fact, please at least attack the actual arguments and not the ones you make up in your own head.


Tldr ;)

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Malchik » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:46 am

Goji wrote:There’s a reason I didn’t even bother, Terasawa. Dude K’O’d himself in one magnificently ignorant post.

I didn't even realize how ignorant his post was. I just skipped over him.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Havoks » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:58 am

realinvaderdesign wrote:Tldr ;)

If that’s too long for you then you must have a real hard time actually debating ;)
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Terasawa » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:17 am

Imagine trying to win an argument by saying “I didn’t read what you wrote because it was too long,” lol. You really got me.

Here’s your tldr, realinvaderdesign: you are a moron.

Edit: Incoming tirade (with more misspelled words than not) about how I’m a hater or over-entitled.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:21 am

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Something kind of amusing came up on Criterion Forum, which is something to appreciate about this set: The Kong dual-ending myth will finally be definitively put to rest. Somebody in that thread apparently was still under the impression it was true.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Tamura » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:24 am

Terasawa wrote:What is being said, which you're very clearly misunderstanding, is that these transfers are more than a decade old; made using low-contrast 35mm prints (not necessarily a good source for a solid transfer)


The low-cons, depending on how they were printed, aren’t bad material... not the best, like the original negative, but given a good transfer by a good tech on a well-adapted machine, they could look solid. Here are the problems:

-Some of them are as far removed from the original negatives as the original US prints are

-They were transferred on an old fashioned telecine that can’t really cope with anything besides well-exposed negative

-The philosophy of the colorist who transferred them (and apparently continues to work on Toho films) is that film should have a blown out, log-like contrast with a brown or yellow discoloration. Transfers with blown out highlights and mids that are pushed up too high are almost impossible to correct. Transferring a positive this way causes details in the upper mids to be lost or difficult to retrieve - faces may look pale and skies may be almost white. The “fans can just color correct it if they don’t like it” excuse doesn’t apply here because information is flat out lost due to the incompetence of the person who was actually hired to do the color, to begin with.

-The transfers are intentionally blurred to hide noise inherent to the 90’s grade CRT-based telecine when transferring anything with a higher contrast than well-exposed negative

-Toho is a snake that won’t pursue any enterprise besides their tried-and-profitable strategies unless it is justified financially, or if there is enough popular support for it, and ultimately it will only be realized if it passes through their rigid, elusive bureaucracy. Their strategy seems to be that each film is entitled to exactly one master per resolution, transferred at no higher than the same resolution, from low-contrast prints probably struck for video in the 80s, because it’s easier and less risky than pulling a negative. This is what their bureaucracy signs off on every single time all but two films in the franchise are transferred, just with a different resolution selected. Unless Toho considers each film’s own needs, every new transfer is going to continue to be very simple and done the exact same way, regardless of the film. I would like to know the circumstances that allowed G54 and KKvsG’s restorations to happen.

I can already see Toho’s future 4K transfers without looking at them. The transfers themselves will be okay. It’ll the first time many of these films will be seen in a master with the minimum degree of sharpness you’d expect from the mastering resolution since the laserdisc era. 4K scanners in use nowadays are more predictable than the tube-based telecines of the past, like the Cintel used to transfer the Hi-Visions, which had a hard time transferring low contrast prints. Even the low cost 4K scanners in use today are designed to far higher standards than those meant to be achieved by old CRT telecines. Color negative isn’t hard to transfer anymore, that ship sailed years ago, and the technology is at the point where relatively little film material is hard to digitize. The dynamic range of the newest sensors compared to the telecines of the past is mind blowing.

But the masters won’t be flawless, or have the appearance of being respectfully restored on the granular level, except for something trivial, like the erasing of splices. After all, they will be transfers made to the exact same specs that the bureaucracy currently allows, with a different resolution checked off. They will still have the brown tinge and mids pushed up into the highlights. They will still be transferred from the same low-con prints struck for video. MvsG and IoAM will still look dupey as hell, Ebirah and Son of Godzilla will still have missing frames. It will also be years before Toho will offer them to western distributors.

The systemic issue with the preservation and presentation of this franchise can be summed up in several mismatches... mismatched transferring machines and transferring material, mismatched colorists and color material, and a mismatched corporation and IP in desperate need of better care.

Toho: these films deserve better than CRT telecine transfers that were laughable when they were new.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Terasawa » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:31 am

^In addition to all that, I think the problem is that Toho prefers quantity over quality. You can't churn out respectable work on nearly 30 films overnight, however, that's exactly what they did (except being respectable) with the HiVisions. I imagine the same problem with an eventual 4K-res push on the Godzillas would be the goal of doing as many as quickly as possible, rather than to get them all right.
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