Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Goji » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:18 am

they certainly aren't cinephiles that demand that the old 60s film you are foisting onto them is given a pristine presentation.

Except that this is literally something that everyone would want, so this argument doesn't work. Everyone *except* small children would care about this. Consumers want the best product available, and expect a significant upgrade when 'double dipping' on home video purchases. Had Criterion been allowed to do new transfers, they undeniably would have been better than what Toho provided them with. You either argue that the dubs and U.S. versions aren't important, or that new transfers don't matter. Pick one, because you can't argue both.

'at least these look better than my DVDs from 14 years ago' is a piss poor defense. It would be like being forced to order from the not-so-great pizza place in town because the best option isn't allowed to deliver to your area, but then proclaiming "Well, at least it's better than using this old pizza dough in my freezer" when forced to order from the shitty one.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Malchik » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:28 am

UltramanGoji wrote:It's really hilarious how they're saying "This is a set for cinephiles!" as if cinephiles wouldn't want every conceivable version of the films available in high definition.

And even in this sets current state its not for cinephiles. Criterion has always been a cinephile's publisher but Toho is forcing them to release a set no better than what Mill Creek could publish. I'd skip the cumbersome book in a heartbeat for a simpler Mill Creek-style release like their Gamera set because their is no picture upgrade to justify the Criterion price or label.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Lecontinentperdu » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:13 am

Point is: Toho wont let them (of course they wanna protect their home market ! BTW I depise how there are NEVER english subs on their home release- Id pick them a long time ago otherwise...) make the ultimate internationally relevant and complete and pristine collection. You want that. Youll never have it. Youre obviously pissed of because of this. I am not. To me, This is HUGE. considering the reality of the market and the policy of the owners. Once again : glass half full. I would LOVE to have what you want. But it will, logically, never happen. And I try to be happy nonetheless.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Malchik » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:19 am

Lecontinentperdu wrote:Point is: Toho wont let them (of course they wanna protect their home market ! BTW I depise how there are NEVER english subs on their home release- Id pick them a long time ago otherwise...) make the ultimate internationally relevant and complete and pristine collection. You want that. Youll never have it. Youre obviously pissed of because of this. I am not. To me, This is HUGE. considering the reality of the market and the policy of the owners. Once again : glass half full. I would LOVE to have what you want. But it will, logically, never happen. And I try to be happy nonetheless.

What the hell are you even getting at?

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:30 am

Lecontinentperdu wrote:You want that. Youll never have it. Youre obviously pissed of because of this. I am not. To me, This is HUGE. considering the reality of the market and the policy of the owners. Once again : glass half full. I would LOVE to have what you want. But it will, logically, never happen. And I try to be happy nonetheless.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Lecontinentperdu » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:37 am

Guess im just happy with whats coming for Christmas. A cheerful guy in grumpy land. ;)

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Goji » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:58 am

Gotta love the assertion that anyone that isn’t gushing over the ‘convenience’ (or whatever) of this collection is just “obviously pissed off”.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby goji89 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:28 am

Lecontinentperdu wrote:Guess im just happy with whats coming for Christmas. A cheerful guy in grumpy land. ;)


Hell yeah brother.....there are more people happy for it than not.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby GodzFire » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:12 pm

goji89 wrote:
Lecontinentperdu wrote:Guess im just happy with whats coming for Christmas. A cheerful guy in grumpy land. ;)


Hell yeah brother.....there are more people happy for it than not.


And there's no doubt in my mind that's because those people don't have the full knowledge of the background of this release and have no idea of what they actually could/should be getting in this release but aren't. If they did, I guarantee you there would be a crap ton more. It's unfortunate.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby G-MAN » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:51 pm

goji1986 wrote:
G-MAN wrote:Can't remember where or who said it but someone was saying that they have it on good word thst the set was only being worked on for a year or so. Which honestly makes so much sense with what little was actually done.



I really still don't understand why you insist on saying Criterion showed little interest in this set when it's been stated, time and time again, that Toho put huge restrictions on them that limited what they could do. Their hands were tied, end of story. Actual work on the set may have taken a year but they spent a solid amount of time planning this release - I know this for a fact because I was made aware of their plans in December 2017!!! - which included figuring out where to find the best elements for the US dubs - before that was completely axed by Toho.


Yes I knew even before December of 2017 as some fans were told by Toho that janus films had the rights to a few of show a films they hadn't had the rights to yet when they wanted to do screenings. And I'm sure they were planning on doing some stuff like reaching out to collectors who had prints. But it just feels like I said that they cared more about getting this for their streaming service catalogue than for the physical media releases. Especially after Toho was limiting what they could so and what they could use/put out.

But with what we all know about the little they have said they were allowed to do/use. It's silly to not think they coudlnt have done more or put more care/effort into this release. Prints/versions aside, there is much more that could have been done with what they had. As Toho didn't make it so they have it so no disc just houses it's own film or even just stick to two films on one disc. Whivh is them being cheap as bluray discs aren't so expensive nowadays especially if millcreek wasn't cheating out with the Ultra sets and allowing them to have really healthy and high bitrates for each episode. And not just hage as much crammed as possible without having a reoeat of the gamera showa sets.

And i doubt they said all you could do is adjust the contrast slightly and not fix the image more. And I highly doubt they said no to commentaries. As that is usually taken care of after they are already made and sent off to be approved. Since according to Steve Ryfle there were never any talks of them doing commentaries to his knowledge. His and Ed's involvement was just with the write ups on each page. And that they were hoping the documentary they made was allowed to be included but it wasn't.

I've never doubted that they put in effort getting all the showa films or that it was cheap. But it really feels like and shows that they maybe after the fact found out toho wasn't gonna let them repeat any kind of beautiful work they did for the Gojira disc so they decide to be cheap wherever possible on this set yet still think it should cost as much as they are asking for it. Regardless of if it's on sale or not.

We have seen smaller companies put more effort into releases of these films or films like these and not have the nerve to think it's worth as much as they are asking. Not trying to be rude or repeat stuff but people are cutting Criterion too much slack with this set. Even with how difficult we all know toho is and can be. Plenty more they could've done for this to have been a better set and actually feel like a proper criterion release.

I apologize for the length of this and while I'm responding back I am curious what ever happened to the smog monster restoration as I absolutely loved the Sea Monster restoration you did.
Last edited by G-MAN on Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Goji » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:28 pm

GodzFire wrote:
goji89 wrote:
Lecontinentperdu wrote:Guess im just happy with whats coming for Christmas. A cheerful guy in grumpy land. ;)


Hell yeah brother.....there are more people happy for it than not.


And there's no doubt in my mind that's because those people don't have the full knowledge of the background of this release and have no idea of what they actually could/should be getting in this release but aren't. If they did, I guarantee you there would be a crap ton more. It's unfortunate.


But hey, as long as it’s better than a DVD from 2002, it’s all good brotheeeerr
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby G-MAN » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:46 pm

G-MAN wrote:Completely agree and it's so stupid that a company like criterion coudlnt try to get some access to them. As they look far more natural looking. And yeah honestly I've said it before as have others but Criterion could have honestly some much more than what they were given. But they haven't maximized or really done any restoration work. Slightly adjusting the contrast was definitely needed for sure. But there is much more that they could've done

I can answer to you why Toho refused to give Criterion better transfers than what they currently have available: Toho is afraid people in Japan will import the Criterion release if it is superior to their native disks. Licensing films to foreign companies is a lot cheaper and less profitable because they rely on the purchase(e) to do all the physical labour producing disks. If Japanese Godzilla fans import the Criterion disks then Toho doesn't get that publishers markup, Criterion does. I'm sure some Japanese fans will import the Criterion set but Toho will desperately try anything to keep their IP regional to maximize their dollar value.[/quote]

Oh no I know why I'm just saying it's a shame that Toho takes forever to actually capitalize on their efforts to make better or newer transfers for their films. And it's why past releases have sometimes been of lesser quality or had forced subtitles to discourage reverse importers. Or like with these we are stuck with the old masters yet none of the cool bonus features from the toho discs.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Godzamera » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:17 pm

GODZILLA BOX

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:35 pm

Godzamera wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/criterion/comments/dkuys1/godzilla_vs_mechagodzilla_1974_sony_dvd_transfer/

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Tamura » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:20 pm

The soft, overscanned transfer vs. the punched in, sharp transfer debate lives on as if it forgot to die...
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby G-MAN » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:45 pm

Tamura wrote:The soft, overscanned transfer vs. the punched in, sharp transfer debate lives on as if it forgot to die...


Love how people will prefer or defend the HiVision transfers even though they lack clarity and detail that the sony dvds had. But you know cropped is worse than overly soft DNR'd to heck transfers even though it's not. Just framed differently and it's not as big of a deal as some are making it to be. As it's not egregious like say the framing of the version of Godzilla vs the thing on the classic media dvd

Added in 4 minutes 59 seconds:
Hope some company somehow manages to license those sony transfers for bluray even if I have to import and rip it.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Chrispy_G » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:56 pm

Goji wrote:
they certainly aren't cinephiles that demand that the old 60s film you are foisting onto them is given a pristine presentation.

Except that this is literally something that everyone would want, so this argument doesn't work. Everyone *except* small children would care about this.


Maybe you misunderstood.

If we are talking "little kids"....well whip out the DVDs that exist and show them that, they certainly aren't cinephiles that demand that the old 60s film you are foisting onto them is given a pristine presentation.


The little kids that you would potentially show these films to are NOT "cinephiles that demand those 60s films are pristine". Little kids will watch anything. As I said, my nephew solidified his fandom finding Showa fight scenes on YouTube in sub-HD quality.

All of the Alt-Versions are for the cinephiles, and I'm sorry you aren't getting your upgrade.

On a sincerely positive note, I love the full circle of the fandom where now the "purist" standpoint is to demand the various Alt-Versions of all of the films. We've come a long way from begging for Japanese Audio with Subs and Widescreen presentations. I used to be all-in for that, but in terms of my movie collection I've largely just lost the interest in collecting multiple cuts of the same movie.

Added in 13 minutes 42 seconds:
goji89 wrote:
Lecontinentperdu wrote:Guess im just happy with whats coming for Christmas. A cheerful guy in grumpy land. ;)


Hell yeah brother.....there are more people happy for it than not.


*Raises hand*

I'll always hope for better, for the best. I win the lotto big enough, I'll fund 4K restorations of every film and take none of the profits. I'll fund new dubs, recreations, rebuilds, whatever.

SHOULD we get the very best? Yes.

In my experience as a Godzilla fan, DO we EVER get the very best? Pretty much never. I'm a realist and I know Toho's ways. Collecting Godzilla has basically always been a battle of compromise.

Best case scenario is that this somehow works out well long-term, that Criterion playing nice keeps them in play for something in the future. Maybe Toho pulls their heads out of their rears and shells out for the restored brilliance of every film, and gives Criterion access. Maybe 5 years down the road, Criterion is able to grab up the first 50 years of Godzilla films for a 30 disc mega collection. I'm not saying I would NOT want that. I don't know how realistic of a dream it is, but I would be all for it.

But I don't have the following logic: "I'll stick to my crappier DVDs because they have the alt-version I want and because this set isn't everything I dreamed of"

"I didn't get as big of a raise as I wanted so I'm refusing ANY raise at all!"

The amount of anger and frustration people have over a few people being POSITIVE about this shows how much of a negative mind-set some really have.
Last edited by Chrispy_G on Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby realinvaderdesign » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:37 am

The amount of anger and frustration people have over a few people being POSITIVE about this shows how much of a negative mind-set some really have


yeah, unfortunately as with most fandoms (some worse than others) there will always be the negative types which can be tiresome and sometimes laughable to read.

goji89 wrote:
Lecontinentperdu wrote:Guess im just happy with whats coming for Christmas. A cheerful guy in grumpy land. ;)


Hell yeah brother.....there are more people happy for it than not.


Yep, plus if you add the upcoming ultra sets on top of that, id say its going to be a great few months to be a kaiju fan

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Goji » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:25 am

Chrispy_G wrote: Maybe you misunderstood.

Goji wrote: Everyone *except* small children would care about this.

Or maybe your selective reading strikes again?

Not everyone owns those old DVDs, and even less people still own VCRs, but regardless of that, yes, children aren't going to care what they're watching, but that's in regard to English versions, which isn't what I'm talking about.

*Adults* certainly care about picture quality, and that's that point that you pretty deliberately glossed over. More than just cinephiles care about the presentation of (the Japanese versions of) Godzilla films. Cramming three of the best ones onto one disc, when the transfers are already bad, is really not doing them any favors, but I digress.

realinvaderdesign wrote: yeah, unfortunately as with most fandoms (some worse than others) there will always be the negative types which can be tiresome and sometimes laughable to read.

Yes, what ever would we do with such great contributions from you such as the nodding-in-agreement type posts that add nothing to the conversation and the laughable "unless you are watching two different prints of these movies at once you aren't going to notice" as some kind of defense for mediocrity.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:35 am

Chrispy_G wrote:But I don't have the following logic: "I'll stick to my crappier DVDs because they have the alt-version I want and because this set isn't everything I dreamed of"

"I didn't get as big of a raise as I wanted so I'm refusing ANY raise at all!"

The amount of anger and frustration people have over a few people being POSITIVE about this shows how much of a negative mind-set some really have.

You're still being extremely disingenuous. At this point I can only really conclude that it's deliberate.

The people not buying the set, by and large, feel that it doesn't offer them enough of an upgrade over what they already have to justify spending their money. It's not just flatly refusing a raise because it's not larger; to carry on that analogy, it's more like turning down a position that entails greater responsibilities and demands more of your time in exchange for a very small increase in pay. It's a question of whether the return justifies the investment.

And nobody's mad at anyone just for being okay with the set. On the other hand, those of us who were disappointed that a usually great label like Criterion was being used as a vanity press for Toho's cheap transfers were told to stop complaining and be grateful pretty much from the jump.
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