Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

For the discussion of Toho DVDs, Blu-Rays, CDs, streaming services, VHS, and other formats where Toho films and soundtracks can be found.
Post Reply
User avatar
Great Hierophant
Interpol Agent
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Great Hierophant »

My point was that I wanted to get an experience substantially different from what I have at home. At home I have Criterion's very good transfers of G54 and GKOTM (this one will probably never be better) and a fairly large (50") flat-screen TV. A 4K DCP projection, while showing more detail than a 35mm print struck from the restoration, is still just a slightly better thing than what I can get at home.

Film is different, 35mm was the premier analog format of the day and what the film was meant to be shown on. Film has its flaws, scratches, hairs, dust, varying contrast, warping, flicker, motor/shutter noise. An optical mono track has its limitations too. But there is an organic quality to film that DCP cannot match, texture which is not there on the "too-clean" digital projection. I would travel out of state and risk exposure to COVID-19 for that experience. Not for most DCP presentations.

User avatar
canofhumdingers
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

I wasn’t saying grain was compression. I said you could draw parallels between the two. The more (or larger) grain there is, the lower the over all quality of the image. Much like the more compression the lower quality the image. Heck, an incredibly grainy image and a highly compressed image often even look similar in some ways.

But also, while yes film itself can still arguably hold a higher quality image* than digital (though the lines are getting more and more blurred every day) there is a difference between the image quality stored on film vs the image quality on the screen when that film is projected. And to that end, digital projection has routinely performed better than film projection in every measurable quality for years now. To say you won’t see a digital cinema presentation in a theater because it’s not as high quality as a film presentation is indeed inaccurate and (maybe) ignorant.

*it’s also worth pointing out that the film you see in a theater is multiple generations away from the OCN or interpostives that are usually used when scanning and restoring film. Which in turn often means a quality DCP, made from those negatives or inter positives, actually DOES store a higher quality image than the release print that would actually be shown in a cinema.

Added in 2 minutes 40 seconds:
Now, to say you would be more interested in a film presentation than digital, for all the ambience and charm of the movie going experience listed above…. That I can get behind! Film is wonderful and its a real treat to get to see an actual print in a theater.

John Schuermann
Samurai
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:28 am

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by John Schuermann »

Not going to get into too much detail (it's late), but I also work in post production for both audio and video. I was also present at some initial testing of 4K scans taken from Imax film elements.

*Projected* 35mm film has an effective resolution of approximately 800 lines or so. This is due to the movement of the film in the projector as it passes through the gate (judder), which greatly reduces picture detail. There was a fairly large scale international study of projected film resolutions some years back - this is where I got that from (I'll try to find a link to it tomorrow).

While it's true that a digital scan of a film frame *may* not be indistinguishable from, say, a projected slide of the same film frame, it's getting to the point that digital is able to capture essentially everything that's visible to the human eye.

From an audio standpoint, double blind listening tests have shown that even "mere CD quality" 44/16 digital files to be audibly indistinguishable from the original sources.

Fwiw, my original point about film vs. digital had to do with its projected presentation. In this area, digital has it all over film. There's another report one can find of a shootout between projected 70mm IMAX film vs. a 4K scan of the same material. The shootout was attended by several cinematographers who had actually shot IMAX films, and they overwhelmingly preferred the 4K presentation. I'll try to dig up that report as well.

Added in 1 minute 47 seconds:
Great Hierophant wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:32 pm My point was that I wanted to get an experience substantially different from what I have at home. At home I have Criterion's very good transfers of G54 and GKOTM (this one will probably never be better) and a fairly large (50") flat-screen TV. A 4K DCP projection, while showing more detail than a 35mm print struck from the restoration, is still just a slightly better thing than what I can get at home.

Film is different, 35mm was the premier analog format of the day and what the film was meant to be shown on. Film has its flaws, scratches, hairs, dust, varying contrast, warping, flicker, motor/shutter noise. An optical mono track has its limitations too. But there is an organic quality to film that DCP cannot match, texture which is not there on the "too-clean" digital projection. I would travel out of state and risk exposure to COVID-19 for that experience. Not for most DCP presentations.
Thanks for that explanation! :)

goji1986
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by goji1986 »

canofhumdingers wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:40 pm To say you won’t see a digital cinema presentation in a theater because it’s not as high quality as a film presentation is indeed inaccurate and (maybe) ignorant.
When did I EVER say that I WON’T see something in a cinema if it’s digital? I’d never go to a theater, ever, if that was the case!


And John brings in a fair point that scanning tech is approaching the point where it’s getting to be indistinguishable. But, still, it’s not there yet.

To draw a similar parallel, I have (thanks to my mother for being a super fan back in the day) original pressings of much of The Beatles catalog on vinyl. My absolute favorite album is Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. I also have digital copies of that album - both the 2009 remaster and the 2017 special edition with a new remix and bonus tracks (including the original mono mix, which is ostensibly the vinyl). The digital copies are, of course, what I listen to the most due to their ease of access and the ability to take them anywhere with my phone*. That being said, the vinyl still has the warmth and “feel” that none of the digital versions have replicated for me yet.


*I run FLAC files off my Plex server, which get transcoded to my iPhone since it doesn’t support the format. But I DO have pro studio monitors that I use for non-transcoded playback off a desktop.
PM me for Godzilla versus The Sea Monster Titra Dub HD reconstruction! BLURAY-READY EDITION NOW AVAILABLE!
(Former V2.0 still available as well)
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5561

Godzilla vs The Smog Monster AIP Dub HD reconstruction COMPLETE!
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=26132

User avatar
Major sssspielberg!
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2226
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:48 am

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

It's irritating to me that these screenings are at Alamo Drafthouses, since there's not one near me in any of the surrounding states. I'd be there for every one if I could. I just don't see why Toho couldn't go through Fathom like everybody else. I just caught a 4K screening of The Transformers: The Movie so if it's good enough for Hasbro you'd think it's good enough for Toho.
Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:44 am I love Final Wars. I praise Final Wars. Simple as.

User avatar
Joseph Goodman
Monarch Researcher
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 3:30 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Joseph Goodman »

Major sssspielberg! wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 pmI just don't see why Toho couldn't go through Fathom like everybody else.

How do you know this isn't something Alamo Drafthouse approached Janus & Toho about?

User avatar
G1985
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1809
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:10 am

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by G1985 »

Major sssspielberg! wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 pm It's irritating to me that these screenings are at Alamo Drafthouses, since there's not one near me in any of the surrounding states. I'd be there for every one if I could. I just don't see why Toho couldn't go through Fathom like everybody else. I just caught a 4K screening of The Transformers: The Movie so if it's good enough for Hasbro you'd think it's good enough for Toho.
I saw 2019's GKOTM at an Alamo. I was so impressed by the audio experience that Alamo has been my preferred theater destination ever since. It's unfortunate that they have so few locations, but those they do have offer the best movie environment that you can experience IMO.

User avatar
canofhumdingers
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

Joseph Goodman wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:14 pm
Major sssspielberg! wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 pmI just don't see why Toho couldn't go through Fathom like everybody else.

How do you know this isn't something Alamo Drafthouse approached Janus & Toho about?
When I lived in Texas I went to the Drafthouse regularly. They do TONS of special screenings. Like, at least two or three a week (probably more like average at least one a day). And having talked to the program manager at the location I went to the most, I can tell you absolutely Alamo is the party who initiated these screenings, not toho. They don’t do Fathom because they do all their own bookings and programming for each month. This probably took months to arrange.

User avatar
Joseph Goodman
Monarch Researcher
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 3:30 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Joseph Goodman »

When I lived in Texas I went to the Drafthouse regularly. They do TONS of special screenings. Like, at least two or three a week (probably more like average at least one a day). And having talked to the program manager at the location I went to the most, I can tell you absolutely Alamo is the party who initiated these screenings, not toho. They don’t do Fathom because they do all their own bookings and programming for each month. This probably took months to arrange.


It's better that these aren't Fathom Events, as most of the time those are low-bitrate broadcast feeds, only rarely actual DCPs, 4K or otherwise. Alamo Drafthouse's communication certainly can't be faulted, the program manager at my local ones has always been willing to answer my pestering for details about screenings.
Last edited by Joseph Goodman on Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
canofhumdingers
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

^agreed. I’ve never been impressed with the quality of fathom’s streamed films. The compression artifacting when I saw King Kong ‘33 a while back was absolutely atrocious.

Chris55
Site Director | Media Relations
Site Director | Media Relations
Posts: 2772
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:14 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Chris55 »

Major sssspielberg! wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 pm It's irritating to me that these screenings are at Alamo Drafthouses, since there's not one near me in any of the surrounding states. I'd be there for every one if I could. I just don't see why Toho couldn't go through Fathom like everybody else. I just caught a 4K screening of The Transformers: The Movie so if it's good enough for Hasbro you'd think it's good enough for Toho.
How did Transformers look for you? It got a little glitchy in a couple of spots when I saw it.
Your misconceptions and fantasies along with your misguided sense of entitlement don't dictate my actions.

User avatar
MaxRebo320
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2893
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:56 pm
Location: albaquarky
Contact:

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by MaxRebo320 »

I saw Fathom's 2018 screening of the 4K remastered 2001 , and definitely concur it was rather compressed/artifact-y looking. Still had a great time seeing it on the big screen (It gave me a newfound appreciation for the film), but if I ever get the opportunity to do so again, I'll make sure its an actual print/DCP being used.
Beta Capsule Reviews - Your Guide to Ultraman & other Tokusatsu episode-by-episode!
https://betacapsulereviews.wordpress.com
three wrote:leave me be maxrebo! damn you and your ability to play the game here....

User avatar
GodzillaFan1996
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:51 pm
Location: In the pits of hell!
Contact:

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by GodzillaFan1996 »

Hi-vision
Image
4k downsized to 2k
Image
Hi-vision
Image
Downscale 4k
Image
Hi-vision
Image
Downsized 4k
Image
Hi-vision
Image
Downsized 4k
Image

Some other images
Image

Image

Image

Images from
@ShowaAddict
@SpaceHunter_M
Last edited by GodzillaFan1996 on Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
canofhumdingers
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

Interesting. I like the 4K better in most respects (the finer detail is stunning) but I have to admit I prefer the color timing of the old transfer on the opening title card and the two shots of rose Biollante. But then, the color timing on the opening toho logo is LEAGUES better in the 4K version.

User avatar
Great Hierophant
Interpol Agent
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Great Hierophant »

It feels like a brown haze has been lifted from the film.

User avatar
UltramanGoji
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 17720
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:40 am

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by UltramanGoji »

GodzillaFan1996 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:41 pm Hi-vision
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBr0vOkWQAM ... name=small
4k downsized to 2k
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBr0wceWEAc ... name=small
Hi-vision
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBr05VXXsA0 ... name=large
Downscale 4k
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBr068SXoAA ... name=large
Hi-vision
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBryRplXIAI ... name=large
Downsized 4k
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBryTeaXsAY ... name=large
Hi-vision
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBry3wJXEAY ... name=large
Downsized 4k
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBry6RjWUA4 ... name=large

Some other images
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBr_RMaVcAk ... me=900x900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBsCur8VcB0 ... me=900x900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBsBcOaVcAU ... me=900x900

Images from
@ShowaAddict
@SpaceHunter_M
Edited to add clickable links since Twitter images don't work on desktop for me and might not for others.

Anyway, there are some great shots to it but also that shot of Rose Biollante in the lake looks MASSIVELY overexposed. Yeesh.
Last edited by UltramanGoji on Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Major sssspielberg!
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2226
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:48 am

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

Chris55 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:06 pm
Major sssspielberg! wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 pm It's irritating to me that these screenings are at Alamo Drafthouses, since there's not one near me in any of the surrounding states. I'd be there for every one if I could. I just don't see why Toho couldn't go through Fathom like everybody else. I just caught a 4K screening of The Transformers: The Movie so if it's good enough for Hasbro you'd think it's good enough for Toho.
How did Transformers look for you? It got a little glitchy in a couple of spots when I saw it.
There was one part during the battle for Autobot City that was incredibly blurry/out of focus. I think we had to contend with more audio issues that visual, but IIRC there was only one other brief bit of blur (yuk yuk) and otherwise, it was gorgeous. I actually took two of my friends who were old enough to see it in theaters back in the 80s but didn't get the chance, so it was quite the experience!
GodzillaFan1996 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:41 pm Hi-vision
Image
Downsized 4k
Image
Holy cats
Last edited by Major sssspielberg! on Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:44 am I love Final Wars. I praise Final Wars. Simple as.

User avatar
MONSTER MANIC
Samurai
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:32 am

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by MONSTER MANIC »

GodzillaFan1996 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:41 pm Hi-vision
Image
4k downsized to 2k
Image
Hi-vision
Image
Downscale 4k
Image
Hi-vision
Image
Downsized 4k
Image
Hi-vision
Image
Downsized 4k
Image

Some other images
Image

Image

Image

Images from
@ShowaAddict
@SpaceHunter_M
Jeebus, I take back my previous comments of being patient for the video release, I NEED THESE IN MY LIFE!

User avatar
Joseph Goodman
Monarch Researcher
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 3:30 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Joseph Goodman »

Details of the 4K restoration of Mothra will be revealed during the online G-fes:

https://twitter.com/godzilla_jp/status/ ... 6403187715

Nihon-Eiga will be rebroadcasting the eight remastered titles in a New Year's Eve marathon:

https://twitter.com/nihoneiga/status/14 ... 3817071617

User avatar
canofhumdingers
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

Great news about a Mothra 4K!! This bodes well for the idea/hope that they’ll continue upgrading their catalogue title transfers to 4K. I’d be very happy indeed to see the entire Toho kaiju library get this treatment. But ESPECIALLY the entire showa series! Come on Toho! You can do it!!

Post Reply