Toho Kingdom

Andagi1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:13 ambut I don't know that I would place it among the likes of The Godfather/Dark Knight/LOTR/etc. as I've seen others do.

Oh, definitely not...but then again I wouldn't place either TDK or LOTR with The Godfather either.

Rando Yaguchi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:36 pm

Andagi1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:13 ambut I don't know that I would place it among the likes of The Godfather/Dark Knight/LOTR/etc. as I've seen others do.

Oh, definitely not...but then again I wouldn't place either TDK or LOTR with The Godfather either.

I find The Godfather slightly overrated. And I would, if called on to rank such things, rank Gamera III above The Dark Knight (great movie, but too pedantic) or Lord of the Rings.

Regardless, I'd say all of the above are well constructed stories with excellent production and each of them in their own way has duende. Any parsing out of artistic merit beyond that is purely academic.

Rando Yaguchi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:36 pm

Andagi1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:13 ambut I don't know that I would place it among the likes of The Godfather/Dark Knight/LOTR/etc. as I've seen others do.

Oh, definitely not...but then again I wouldn't place either TDK or LOTR with The Godfather either.

Of course you can't.

The Godfather is untouchable. The Gamera trilogy sits well below any of these movies. If the 3rd hadn't sucked I'd place it higher.

eabaker wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:37 pm I find The Godfather slightly overrated.

I'm actually not a huge fan of it (more of a Goodfellas guy), though I recognize it as a great achievement in filmmaking, and I have no problem seeing why others go bananas over it.

And I would, if called on to rank such things, rank Gamera III above The Dark Knight (great movie, but too pedantic) or Lord of the Rings.

TDK is a bit of a mess (and yes, way too pedantic), but Heath Ledger's character/performance alone elevates it above Gamera 3 for me - he's arguably the greatest movie villain of all time, there just isn't anything in G3 that can compete with that IMO.

I think Fellowship of the Ring is an absolute masterpiece, while the sequels come up a little short. Overall, it feels like a more complete and slightly more satisfying saga than the Gamera trilogy.

Regardless, I'd say all of the above are well constructed stories with excellent production and each of them in their own way has duende. Any parsing out of artistic merit beyond that is purely academic.

Agreed.

Andagi1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:13 am They're well up there as far as Kaiju movies go, but I don't know that I would place it among the likes of The Godfather/Dark Knight/LOTR/etc. as I've seen others do.

I'd certainly rank Gamera above any of those. I can't stand Nolan's Batman stuff at all, or anything Tolkien related. Only seen the first Godfather and liked it well enough but not to the degree of caring enough to see the sequels. Gangster movies just aren't my thing, honestly.

My views on movies have always been the odd one out so this is probably only me in this particular camp. If I love something and it resonates with me then really at the end of the day I don't care what critics or other people say, I'll still think it's the best thing ever and will happily champion that perspective until I'm blue in the face and then some.

Frankly, movie discussion (on the internet as a whole I mean) could use more versatility in tastes. I love finding interesting takes on film and seeing people who genuinely express earnest love for movies that don't get enough of it and clearly mean something to them instead of trying to present themselves as "sophisticated" to impress Reddit tier filmbros.

Rando Yaguchi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:45 pm

And I would, if called on to rank such things, rank Gamera III above The Dark Knight (great movie, but too pedantic) or Lord of the Rings.

TDK is a bit of a mess (and yes, way too pedantic), but Heath Ledger's character/performance alone elevates it above Gamera 3 for me - he's arguably the greatest movie villain of all time, there just isn't anything in G3 that can compete with that IMO.

Yeah, Ledger's Joker is the shining jewel in that movie's crown, for sure. But, and I realize this is going way beyond apples and oranges, to comparing, like, apples and armchairs, but I am tempted to say that the elegant poetry of the golden hued shots of Iris "embracing" Ayana in the woods (including the grotesque revelation that ends the scene) is comparably transcendent - in a completely different way - to Ledger's Joker. And it's really the poetry of Gamera III that I respond to.[/quote]

I think Fellowship of the Ring is an absolute masterpiece, while the sequels come up a little short. Overall, it feels like a more complete and slightly more satisfying saga than the Gamera trilogy.

[/quote]

I do agree that Fellowship is the masterpiece of that trilogy, if we're looking at them as individual movies. But I also don't think direct comparison between the two trilogies entirely makes sense (he says, hypocritically, after having directly compared a performance to a section of cinematography), since the Gamera trilogy are very much three distinct stories, developed and produced sequentially, and meant to be read individualy; whereas the Lord of the Rings movies, while divisible into three segments, were conceived and produced as a single work, and meant to be taken primarily as such.

Andagi1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:13 amThey're well up there as far as Kaiju movies go, but I don't know that I would place it among the likes of The Godfather/Dark Knight/LOTR/etc. as I've seen others do.

I wouldn’t either, but mostly because those are completely different movies. Completely different genres, filmed with completely different budgets, aimed at completely different target audiences and with completely different things to say. I would never compare the Gamera trilogy to those examples simply because they’re fundamentally not comparable. Hell, those examples are barely comparable with each other.

(Maybe you could make an excuse for The Dark Knight. Maybe.)

What would I compare the Gamera trilogy to? Well, outside the obvious answer of “other monster movies”, I would compare the trilogy to other sci-fi/fantasy works that touch upon similar concepts or themes. Attack of Legion, for example, is an alien invasion movie at its core, and its primary storytelling goal is in action and spectacle. I’d therefor sooner compare it to Independence Day, or Transformers. Revenge of Iris is a sci-fi/urban fantasy movie with heavy anime influences and religious subtext – it might be better compared to Evangelion, or perhaps even the Matrix, rather than The Godfather.

Kaiju-King42 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:45 am

Andagi1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:13 amThey're well up there as far as Kaiju movies go, but I don't know that I would place it among the likes of The Godfather/Dark Knight/LOTR/etc. as I've seen others do.

I wouldn’t either, but mostly because those are completely different movies. Completely different genres, filmed with completely different budgets, aimed at completely different target audiences and with completely different things to say. I would never compare the Gamera trilogy to those examples simply because they’re fundamentally not comparable. Hell, those examples are barely comparable with each other.

(Maybe you could make an excuse for The Dark Knight. Maybe.)

What would I compare the Gamera trilogy to? Well, outside the obvious answer of “other monster movies”, I would compare the trilogy to other sci-fi/fantasy works that touch upon similar concepts or themes. Attack of Legion, for example, is an alien invasion movie at its core, and its primary storytelling goal is in action and spectacle. I’d therefor sooner compare it to Independence Day, or Transformers. Revenge of Iris is a sci-fi/urban fantasy movie with heavy anime influences and religious subtext – it might be better compared to Evangelion, or perhaps even the Matrix, rather than The Godfather.

"If you ask me, Muhammad Ali, in his prime, was much better than anti-lock brakes."

If anything this series is underrated if you take the general audience into account.

shadowgigan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:23 am If anything this series is underrated if you take the general audience into account.

I wouldn't say most of the general audience - at least in America - has enough awareness of these movies to under-, over-, or accurately rate them.

eabaker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:01 am "If you ask me, Muhammad Ali, in his prime, was much better than anti-lock brakes."

I prefer David Bowie, personally.

Rando Yaguchi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:14 pm

eabaker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:01 am "If you ask me, Muhammad Ali, in his prime, was much better than anti-lock brakes."

I prefer David Bowie, personally.

Agree to disagree, I prefer ventilators to Stevie Wonder

I respect the trilogy for being objectively great Kaiju films with a likeable human cast and some of the best fights in the era, but as I have mentioned in another thread I never liked the overly bleak and at times nihilistic tone it took. Or least wished it was given to a Kaiju not Gamera, cause I feel something like Gamera the Brave is better at using the strong points of the original Showa character in a more contemporary setting and staying true to the core of what Gamera was than almost reworking it entirely like the Heisei films.

godjacob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:38 pm I never liked the overly bleak and at times nihilistic tone it took.

I never once thought of any of the movies as nihilistic. If anything I find them to be beautifully anti-nihilistic. Especially Gamera 3. Initially it makes you think Gamera is marching towards a lonely death, until the music swells into a renewed determination with Asagi claiming Gamera is not alone, therefore humanity stands alongside Gamera. Kaneko said himself Gamera wins.

It's just whether or not the individual watching the film can find it within their own self to believe in what might seem to be impossible.

Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:49 pm

godjacob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:38 pm I never liked the overly bleak and at times nihilistic tone it took.

I never once thought of any of the movies as nihilistic. If anything I find them to be beautifully anti-nihilistic. Especially Gamera 3. Initially it makes you think Gamera is marching towards a lonely death, until the music swells into a renewed determination with Asagi claiming Gamera is not alone, therefore humanity stands alongside Gamera. Kaneko said himself Gamera wins.

It's just whether or not the individual watching the film can find it within their own self to believe in what might seem to be impossible.

Spoiler:

Just another aspect of what makes Gamera 3 a masterpiece.

Took a ton of death, suffering and misery to get to that point. The ending defiantly ends on a more "hopeful" note but it doesn't write away the misery and bleak atmosphere leading up to the events.

A story being dark doesn't necessarily mean it's nihilistic or cynical. I never got that sense from G3.

Rando Yaguchi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:50 pm A story being dark doesn't necessarily mean it's nihilistic or cynical. I never got that sense from G3.

G3, it could be argued, is about digging yourself out of darkness and getting back into The Fight™. Even Gamera goes from causing much human death to personally saving an individual life that was out to get his scaly ass.
So yeah, dark, but definitely not nihilistic or cynical.

Major sssspielberg! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:52 am

Rando Yaguchi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:50 pm A story being dark doesn't necessarily mean it's nihilistic or cynical. I never got that sense from G3.

G3, it could be argued, is about digging yourself out of darkness and getting back into The Fight™. Even Gamera goes from causing much human death to personally saving an individual life that was out to get his scaly ass.
So yeah, dark, but definitely not nihilistic or cynical.

Yup, the major arc of GIII is about Ayana learning to cope with her survivor's guilt. I find the ending pretty damned uplifting.

Omegamorph wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:19 pm After a careful consideration, I've decided not to endorse your notion.

I’m sorry, what?

Overrated? In the sense that some people really treat them beyond reproach and as pinnacles of the genre that have none of the flaws of the films they also condemn? Absolutely.

Don't get me wrong, they are fantastic movies and certainly well above the ballpark average for the genre. However, I think a lot of fans really do look at them with rose tinted glasses. For instance I see characters get praised up and down, but when I stopped to ask people about the human characters aside from the main three women, many times they struggle to actually name the characters.

The films have iffy pacing, the second one and third one especially have a lot of dead air in the middle, the ground battles aren't particularly engaging as they mostly just including monster shoving into each other, the humans pretty much consistently never contribute to the finale outside of the second film and the very end of the first one, and the mythology is never well explained in the third film to the point where I see pretty well researched fan sites across the web still being very confused as to what's going on.

Yes, the mythology is rather interesting for those that can decipher it, but the average viewer is not going to decipher it. And that mythology is key to the third movie, meaning if you don't fully grasp it you're going to have a lot of confusion. I recently hosted a marathon of the three Gamera movies from this trilogy alongside Gamera the Brave. Pretty much everyone watching of the few dozen attendees were monster movie fans and many of them had seen the trilogy before but some of them just not recently.

This means I got to see both brand new reactions as well as recollections by my compatriots. Pretty much everyone agreed the movies were good, but they're actually work just as many people thinking the Brave was the best of the lot as there were that like G3 better. It was almost exactly 50/50.

I also have to admit I'm not exactly a fan of some of the fan reactions the trilogy as garnered over the years. As I noted earlier there are some pretty snobbish fans who take liking the series way too far and seem to really look down on those that don't worship the ground the trilogy stands on. If someone can't make sense of the mythology the third film is throwing out, or finds the middle portion of the second film stale, it's not because they're too stupid to get it.