Gamera 3 : Really that good?

For the discussion of any Gamera related movies, comics, video games, etc.
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Mac Daddy MM
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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king_ghidorah wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:44 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:28 am OR, I could see Ayana ending up in serious therapy or even a mental institution for a very long time. I cant imagine a criminal trial ending in punishment or a jail sentance being the best way to handle what this child went through.
Exactly. She’s a victim and she’s broken.
Being broken does not give her, nor anyone, the right to use their rage and thus cause the death of innocents. In her case, using her rage to fuel a monster and cause the deaths of THOUSANDS.

And while I understand why she hates Gamera so much, let us not simply ignore who's REAL fault it is they died. It wasn't Gamera. It wasn't Gyaos. It wasn't hers. It was her parent's own damn fault. The dad was too busy taking pictures as giant animals fought next door and the mom was too concerned about their god damn pet cat. Tack on to the fact that the city had been under siege by the Gyaos for at least a day and a half at this point and they STILL stuck around to get stuck in the crossfire. Let that sink in for a minute. The parents didn't even try and leave the city until war broke out between Gamera and Gyaos.

Ayana is A LOT of things. Broken, angry, etc. But as soon as she crossed that line and straight up didn't care about the destruction and death her quest for vengeance had brought, she became no better than a villain.
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shadowgigan
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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I really do understand both sides of this argument. I still don’t think she was in charge of her own faculties, and we have no real idea what Iris did to her while she was cocooned. Either way, it makes sense that some view her as an unsympathetic character, even if I don’t necessarily agree.

I basically think that Iris overcame her will and she was therefore unable to form the requisite intent necessary to be charged with something like murder. But that’s just me.
Last edited by shadowgigan on Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mac Daddy MM
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:32 pm I really do understand both sides of this argument. I still don’t think she was in charge of her own faculties, and we have no real idea what Iris did to her while she was cocooned. Either way, it makes sense that some view her as an unsympathetic character, even if I don’t necessarily agree.

I basically think that Iris overcame her will and she was therefore unable to form the requisite intent necessary to be charged with something like murder. But that’s just me.
I don't view her as unsympathetic. I think we can all agree that it's easy to feel sorry for her given all she has been through. She has been through a Hell a lot of us can't even imagine - kaiju attacking, losing parents, stuck with distant relatives, bullied, etc. But NONE of that should be used as an excuse as to why she did what she did with Iris.

As for what Iris did, it seems painfully clear that it was at, the very least, a 50/50 thing with Iris using her rage as a fuel to grow in size and power. Iris did not implement her bloodlust or quest for vengeance. That was there since the very beginning when she was confronted by the boy and Iris was just a little Poke'mon wannabe. She states Iris hates Gamera too and Gamera killed his family as well (Probably the Gyaos).
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shadowgigan
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Well…I suppose the only way I can get to the bottom of this…is by rewatching the film. *grins*

Like I didn’t just watch it a month or so ago.

Edit: as far as what should happen to Ayana, I have no idea. I’m solely interested in her culpability.
Last edited by shadowgigan on Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:53 pm Edit: as far as what should happen to Ayana, I have no idea. I’m solely interested in her culpability.
I would love to see a certain Youtube channel dig into this case, as well as who should be responsible when mechs cause massive property damage (the ship scene in Pacific Rim especially).
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:01 pm
shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:53 pm Edit: as far as what should happen to Ayana, I have no idea. I’m solely interested in her culpability.
I would love to see a certain Youtube channel dig into this case, as well as who should be responsible when mechs cause massive property damage (the ship scene in Pacific Rim especially).
I wish I knew what you were talking about lol

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Post by king_ghidorah »

I feel like demanding that she be punished more for the things she accidentally or didn’t fully purposefully did is ironically the same thinking that leads her down that dark path to begin with.

Irony…

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:11 pm
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:01 pm
shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:53 pm Edit: as far as what should happen to Ayana, I have no idea. I’m solely interested in her culpability.
I would love to see a certain Youtube channel dig into this case, as well as who should be responsible when mechs cause massive property damage (the ship scene in Pacific Rim especially).
I wish I knew what you were talking about lol
https://www.youtube.com/c/LegalEagle

Does a bunch of "lawyer"-ing movie scenes and series.
king_ghidorah wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:01 am I feel like demanding that she be punished more for the things she accidentally or didn’t fully purposefully did is ironically the same thinking that leads her down that dark path to begin with.

Irony…
A drunk driver isn't the right state of mind, but if they get into an accident and kill someone, they get punished. Just like Ayana, they made the choice that eventually caused innocent people to get hurt/killed.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:27 am A drunk driver isn't the right state of mind, but if they get into an accident and kill someone, they get punished. Just like Ayana, they made the choice that eventually caused innocent people to get hurt/killed.
A drunk driver makes an informed choice that allows their faculties to be impaired; they may not know what will happen after they drink, but they know what sorts of things could potentially happen. As far as the movie tells us, Ayana did not make an informed choice to have her mind and spirit highjacked by a demon; there was nothing about her early interactions with Irys that suggested any of the kind of horrors that might follow their merging.

And if the merged form was acting 50% as Ayana and 50% as Irys, then are those actions actually being taken by either of them, or by a third entity consisting of the raw elements of both but distinct from either? Ayana essentially raises - or at least lightly touches on - this question herself after being fully absorbed by Irys, and the movie declines to provide us with an answer.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:42 am
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:27 am A drunk driver isn't the right state of mind, but if they get into an accident and kill someone, they get punished. Just like Ayana, they made the choice that eventually caused innocent people to get hurt/killed.
A drunk driver makes an informed choice that allows their faculties to be impaired; they may not know what will happen after they drink, but they know what sorts of things could potentially happen. As far as the movie tells us, Ayana did not make an informed choice to have her mind and spirit highjacked by a demon; there was nothing about her early interactions with Irys that suggested any of the kind of horrors that might follow their merging.
There is a scene early on where Ayana straight up says "Iris hates Gamera too. He killed his family too." Combined with her direct statements to the simp chasing after her, there is PLENTY to believe Ayana was harboring this type of bloodlust before the wild Iris appeared. If Gamera was a human, I'd be damn sure she'd be in the mentality to kill him, with or without Iris.

Ayana had enough interaction with the infant Iris along with her prior statements early on to know EXACTLY what was going to happen. When she ignored Asagi and everyone and continued to empower Iris, she knew what she was doing and she did not care.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:55 am
eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:42 am
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:27 am A drunk driver isn't the right state of mind, but if they get into an accident and kill someone, they get punished. Just like Ayana, they made the choice that eventually caused innocent people to get hurt/killed.
A drunk driver makes an informed choice that allows their faculties to be impaired; they may not know what will happen after they drink, but they know what sorts of things could potentially happen. As far as the movie tells us, Ayana did not make an informed choice to have her mind and spirit highjacked by a demon; there was nothing about her early interactions with Irys that suggested any of the kind of horrors that might follow their merging.
There is a scene early on where Ayana straight up says "Iris hates Gamera too. He killed his family too." Combined with her direct statements to the simp chasing after her, there is PLENTY to believe Ayana was harboring this type of bloodlust before the wild Iris appeared. If Gamera was a human, I'd be damn sure she'd be in the mentality to kill him, with or without Iris.

Ayana had enough interaction with the infant Iris along with her prior statements early on to know EXACTLY what was going to happen. When she ignored Asagi and everyone and continued to empower Iris, she knew what she was doing and she did not care.
Yes, their shared pain and hatred of Gamera is why they are drawn to each other, absolutely. Ayana explicitly desired revenge against Gamera. What is not clear is to what degree she understood what seeking revenge against Gamera would entail; nor how much control of her faculties she retained, or even if she still existed as an independent entity, when those actions occurred.

You're making a lot of assumptions in your reading of the movie. Which is fine, an ambiguous narrative is inherently open to individual interpretation, but not everyone is going to read it the same way you do.

At this point, the conversation is just going in circles, and I think it's long since time we dropped it.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:37 am You're making a lot of assumptions in your reading of the movie. Which is fine, an ambiguous narrative is inherently open to individual interpretation, but not everyone is going to read it the same way you do.
Well yeah, but where's the fun in *NOT* debating an interesting topic like this.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:55 am
eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:37 am You're making a lot of assumptions in your reading of the movie. Which is fine, an ambiguous narrative is inherently open to individual interpretation, but not everyone is going to read it the same way you do.
Well yeah, but where's the fun in *NOT* debating an interesting topic like this.
Oh, I'm all in favor of a discussion of varying interpretations of the movie. But right now, in this context, in this thread, that discussion is tied to a somewhat vicious argument that's been going on.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:02 am
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:55 am
eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:37 am You're making a lot of assumptions in your reading of the movie. Which is fine, an ambiguous narrative is inherently open to individual interpretation, but not everyone is going to read it the same way you do.
Well yeah, but where's the fun in *NOT* debating an interesting topic like this.
Oh, I'm all in favor of a discussion of varying interpretations of the movie. But right now, in this context, in this thread, that discussion is tied to a somewhat vicious argument that's been going on.
Who's being vicious? Nobody is throwing insults around or bad mouthing one another.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:06 am
eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:02 am
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:55 am

Well yeah, but where's the fun in *NOT* debating an interesting topic like this.
Oh, I'm all in favor of a discussion of varying interpretations of the movie. But right now, in this context, in this thread, that discussion is tied to a somewhat vicious argument that's been going on.
Who's being vicious? Nobody is throwing insults around or bad mouthing one another.
I really don't feel like going back and parsing the tone of several pages of arguments.

As I said an hour and a half ago, the conversation is going in circles. I don't see that changing, so I'm personally withdrawing from it. I'm not acting as an admin and demanding that it be shut down, but I'm done with it for now.
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shadowgigan
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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I also feel like we should move off the subject. No use in beating a dead horse or ruining internet relationships over this (lol).

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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^Why is not finding a certain fictional character likeable a sign of malice, or lacking empathy? Also, did I ever say that Ayana deserves cruel and/or unusual punishment?
Last edited by LegendZilla on Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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LegendZilla wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:35 pm ^Why is not finding a certain fictional character likeable a sign of malice, or lacking empathy? Also, did I ever say that Ayana deserves cruel and/or unusual punishment?
What started this was you saying that Ayana - a child - should be told she's an awful person, deserves hate and should grovel alone for the rest of her life.

That's cruel.

Can we talk about something else, because this whole conversation is gross.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Post by king_ghidorah »

Agreed.

Anyways. Yes. Gamera 3 really IS that good as long as the mysticism and ambiguity is something you appreciate. If you need everything cleanly spelled out and/or need a lot of monster action this won’t be the film for you.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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I think Gamera 3 is a really good sequel especially because of it being so different in many aspects to the previous two movies. Beginning with the designs and a shifting focus from the scientists and military to the more civil life were good choices.
And considering G1 was more of an action-adventure, and G2 a war-horror film, the third did the right thing to not trying to top the 2nd film (which already brought the whole monster storyline on a new level and had a bigger threat than the Super Gyaos in the first film). Instead of being even more filled with action, we finally get to see what it is like to be a civilian among these monsters. And this is a very refreshing thing out of various reasons.

Many monsters movies manage to give us more monster action by having a human-plot about scientists and military discussing their actions in places far away from any destruction the monsters are causing. But in Gamera 3 the destruction is way more graspable. The viewer is following people who are actually caught between monsters duking it out. And no matter how cool it looks in G1 and 2, where we don't have to fear about any relatable characters being in danger, G3 gives us an actual feeling about how terrifying a kaiju attack is.
It's also the reason why I love G The Brave so much. We're among those people in whose place we'd be if Iris or Zedus would attack our city.

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