Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Post by eabaker »

shadowgigan wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:51 pm Gamera is definitely a more complex character than meets the eye; further complicated by the fact he is an animal given a fair amount of human traits. I don't think there is any dobut he is sentient, the only question is, to what extent? It's easy to see why a large portion of the Japanese population turn on him during the Shibuya incident. But one thing that always strikes me about Gamera is, he is always willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. When Gamera is battling the Gyaos in Shibuya, it seems like he is giving more attention to the meta-narrative of Humanity + Gamera vs. the Gyaos, a battle that involves the very survival of the human race. Given this persepective, its easy to see why Gamera accepted collateral damage in this incident. We also learn through Ayana's flashbacks that perhaps Gamera caused collateral damage all the way back during his first fight against the Gyaos. However, Gamera does show a willingess to protect individuals when it is feasible, as evidence of him protecting Nagamine at the bridge, Asagi at Sendai, the Child in Shibuya, and Ayana at Kyoto Station. To me, all this is evidence that Gamera places the survival of the human race as a whole above the survival of individuals. It's the classic utilitarian dilemma. I don't think it inspires the audience to qustion whether Gamera is evil, but it does instill some doubt as to approach. It also has the potential to further humanize Gamera by showing the audience that even a completely seflless flying turtle makes mistakes, just like us.
While on the whole I agree with your point, I've always read his "protecting" the kid in Shibuya as a coincidence that the kid only (ironically) perceives as "saving" him.

That said, the scene did merit a positive mention from Noriaki Yuasa, who took it at face value.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:55 pm
shadowgigan wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:51 pm Gamera is definitely a more complex character than meets the eye; further complicated by the fact he is an animal given a fair amount of human traits. I don't think there is any dobut he is sentient, the only question is, to what extent? It's easy to see why a large portion of the Japanese population turn on him during the Shibuya incident. But one thing that always strikes me about Gamera is, he is always willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. When Gamera is battling the Gyaos in Shibuya, it seems like he is giving more attention to the meta-narrative of Humanity + Gamera vs. the Gyaos, a battle that involves the very survival of the human race. Given this persepective, its easy to see why Gamera accepted collateral damage in this incident. We also learn through Ayana's flashbacks that perhaps Gamera caused collateral damage all the way back during his first fight against the Gyaos. However, Gamera does show a willingess to protect individuals when it is feasible, as evidence of him protecting Nagamine at the bridge, Asagi at Sendai, the Child in Shibuya, and Ayana at Kyoto Station. To me, all this is evidence that Gamera places the survival of the human race as a whole above the survival of individuals. It's the classic utilitarian dilemma. I don't think it inspires the audience to qustion whether Gamera is evil, but it does instill some doubt as to approach. It also has the potential to further humanize Gamera by showing the audience that even a completely seflless flying turtle makes mistakes, just like us.
While on the whole I agree with your point, I've always read his "protecting" the kid in Shibuya as a coincidence that the kid only (ironically) perceives as "saving" him.

That said, the scene did merit a positive mention from Noriaki Yuasa, who took it at face value.
I understand that. Also, now that I think of it, I think you could also (reasoanbly) argue that Gamera wasn't necessarily protecting Asagi at Sendai, she just happned to be there. However, I have always interpreted that scene as a deliberate attempt to protect Asagi.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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LSD Jellyfish wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:42 pm Yes, after losing her family, being emotionally and physically bullied, taken advantage of by an unhinged group of cultists, controlled by a giant monster, and suddenly experiencing all the trauma said monster inflicted on others, the first thing Ayana, a minor, needs is a smack.
She may be a minor, but still it will take a LOT more than just feeling of guilt to be a valid consequence for her actions. In Game of Thrones, Joffery may be a minor, but that does not mean everyone should've gone easy on him for his actions. You can't use the fact he was born into a position of power and privilege as an excuse.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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LegendZilla wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:26 pm
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:42 pm Yes, after losing her family, being emotionally and physically bullied, taken advantage of by an unhinged group of cultists, controlled by a giant monster, and suddenly experiencing all the trauma said monster inflicted on others, the first thing Ayana, a minor, needs is a smack.
She may be a minor, but still it will take a LOT more than just feeling of guilt to be a valid consequence for her actions. In Game of Thrones, Joffery may be a minor, but that does not mean everyone should've gone easy on him for his actions. You can't use the fact he was born into a position of power and privilege as an excuse.
So what, exactly, would be the "valid consequences" for a child for being led astray and exploited to help facilitate the designs of a malevolent entity of incredible power, while under its effectively supernatural influence?
Last edited by eabaker on Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:19 am
LegendZilla wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:26 pm
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:42 pm Yes, after losing her family, being emotionally and physically bullied, taken advantage of by an unhinged group of cultists, controlled by a giant monster, and suddenly experiencing all the trauma said monster inflicted on others, the first thing Ayana, a minor, needs is a smack.
She may be a minor, but still it will take a LOT more than just feeling of guilt to be a valid consequence for her actions. In Game of Thrones, Joffery may be a minor, but that does not mean everyone should've gone easy on him for his actions. You can't use the fact he was born into a position of power and privilege as an excuse.
So what, exactly, would be the "valid consequences" for a child for being led astray and exploited to help facilitate the designs of a malevolent entity of incredible power, while under its effectively supernatural influence?
This could be an interesting debate I'll be keeping my eyes on for sure, but I have to wonder. In the eyes of the world of Gamera, who exactly is more evil. Ayana... Or school shooters?

IMHO, yes. Ayana 100% needs punished. Her past is shaky, yes. But she was the one that straight up ignored everyone to fuel Iris.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Speaking of valid consequences, I think one for Ayana would be to NOT give her a happy ending. Tell her that she is going to suffer the consequences, live with what she's done for the rest of her life and that she'll be lucky if anyone can forgive her. For all intents and purposes, she will be all alone... Forever.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Have to agree with folks. Regardless of age, no matter how much tragedy that occurred on you never justify your actions especially when many she got killed through Iris were innocent people that had nothing to do with the tragedy she endured.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Seeing as the movie doesn't really give Ayana a happy ending - her future is as ambiguous as everyone else's - I wonder if the issue is really that you guys want to see the child even more brutally punished than she already has been for events that were largely beyond her control.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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3 minutes after the credits role everyone, including Ayana, is tragically eaten by the Gyaos.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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She’s as much a victim as she is the villain. She’s human. She’s as deserving of empathy and compassion as anyone else.

She has her pain exploited by a literal monster. The gun analogy is only apt if the gun were to literally jump into your hands, twist your brain into thinking you’re shooting monsters (instead of hurting people) while also emotionally manipulating you and physically bonding with you.

Iris is a metaphor for rage and the misreading of Ayana as a pure unsympathetic villain is baffling to me. She is supposed to represent us all, given what happens when we fall into anger and despair.

And also. Yes-Gamera 3 IS that good and I’d argue that it’s even better than G 54…

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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king_ghidorah wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:43 pm Iris is a metaphor for rage and the misreading of Ayana as a pure unsympathetic villain is baffling to me. She is supposed to represent us all, given what happens when we fall into anger and despair.
I completely agree. It is unclear she even understood what was going on. Perhaps I'm naive, but I never viewed Ayana's character to be on the same level of evil as a character such as Jeoffrey or someone like that. And, as others have pointed out, we really have no idea what becomes of her after the credits roll.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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^No matter how deep or complex you make the themes or messages of an arc like Ayana’s, nothing can warrant that a character like her be automatically likeable. As Mac Daddy put it, let’s say you can make a movie with a juvenile school shooter as the protagonist. The film explores similar themes and ideas as this one, especially in what leads said shooter to do what they do.

However, should such factors really dictate that we, the audience are supposed to like and sympathize with such a protagonist? Maybe so at first early on, but after they make certain choices, the answer is no. Naturally when people like Ayana start doing reprehensible things as a response to whatever hardship or trauma they endure, you stop caring about them. Everything that happens in their lives going forth is their own responsibility.

As a response to Eabaker’s last post, I am not suggesting something like bludgeoning Ayana to death. However, doing something as simple as telling her she’s an awful person and that she should go grovel alone for the rest of her life is enough. Whatever hate she gets from other people for the remainder of her life is well-deserved.
Last edited by LegendZilla on Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 18 times in total.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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LegendZilla wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:11 pm As a response to Eabaker’s last post, I am not suggesting something like bludgeoning Ayana to death. However, doing something as simple as telling her she’s an awful person and that she should go grovel alone for the rest of her life is enough. Whatever hate she gets from other people for the remainder of her life is well-deserved.
..........what!?!?

That wouldn't be dramatically rewarding in any way. That's just unbelievably cruel.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:49 pm
LegendZilla wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:11 pm As a response to Eabaker’s last post, I am not suggesting something like bludgeoning Ayana to death. However, doing something as simple as telling her she’s an awful person and that she should go grovel alone for the rest of her life is enough. Whatever hate she gets from other people for the remainder of her life is well-deserved.
..........what!?!?

That wouldn't be dramatically rewarding in any way. That's just unbelievably cruel.
Not if they’re either directly or indirectly responsible for Mass-murder.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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LegendZilla wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:06 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:49 pm
LegendZilla wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:11 pm As a response to Eabaker’s last post, I am not suggesting something like bludgeoning Ayana to death. However, doing something as simple as telling her she’s an awful person and that she should go grovel alone for the rest of her life is enough. Whatever hate she gets from other people for the remainder of her life is well-deserved.
..........what!?!?

That wouldn't be dramatically rewarding in any way. That's just unbelievably cruel.
Not if they’re either directly or indirectly responsible for Mass-murder.
Ayana and what she is responsible for is not what Gamera 3 is concerned with. It's about humanity losing faith in Gamera and having it be restored. What happens to Ayana afterwards isn't important, and suggesting things like public shaming for what she did would simply distract from the main picture. yes it could be one of those Fridge Moment thoughts on "hey, what exactly became of her after this whole mess was resolved?", but really there's no reason to truly dwell on it or to think on such things.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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I think you're also missing the biggest picture which is Ayana is a skreeonking CHILD. She legally isn't an adult. I knew kids who got into fights or did stupid poop because they lost someone, because they're KIDS and they get so caught up in their emotions they don't think logically or cleanly express their grief. Hell a lot of adults don't.

God, I'm just so skreeonking disgusted with this whole idea. To literally decide a human being deserves to be scolded all her life and beaten for a MISTAKE she made in a fit of genuine understandable grief and emotional pain (one which the movie itself heavily implies was influenced by a otherworldly creature to such a apocalyptic end point), shows such a PROFOUND lack of empathy it makes me genuinely worried.

Just. skreeonk.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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SoggyNoodles2016 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:28 pm I think you're also missing the biggest picture which is Ayana is a skreeonking CHILD. She legally isn't an adult. I knew kids who got into fights or did stupid poop because they lost someone, because they're KIDS and they get so caught up in their emotions they don't think logically or cleanly express their grief. Hell a lot of adults don't.

God, I'm just so skreeonking disgusted with this whole idea. To literally decide a human being deserves to be scolded all her life and beaten for a MISTAKE she made in a fit of genuine understandable grief and emotional pain (one which the movie itself heavily implies was influenced by a otherworldly creature to such a apocalyptic end point), shows such a PROFOUND lack of empathy it makes me genuinely worried.

Just. skreeonk.
Once again, I think this whole topic is literally the argument for and against giving the death penalty/life to teenage school shooters. And I am 100% for it. ANY sympathy I had for her went right out the window when she ignored the pleas to stop once the fires began to build in Kyoto. At that point, the ONLY way I could ever see her actually be somewhat a decent character by the end is by sacrificing herself to stop Iris once absorbed.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:19 pm
SoggyNoodles2016 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:28 pm I think you're also missing the biggest picture which is Ayana is a skreeonking CHILD. She legally isn't an adult. I knew kids who got into fights or did stupid poop because they lost someone, because they're KIDS and they get so caught up in their emotions they don't think logically or cleanly express their grief. Hell a lot of adults don't.

God, I'm just so skreeonking disgusted with this whole idea. To literally decide a human being deserves to be scolded all her life and beaten for a MISTAKE she made in a fit of genuine understandable grief and emotional pain (one which the movie itself heavily implies was influenced by a otherworldly creature to such a apocalyptic end point), shows such a PROFOUND lack of empathy it makes me genuinely worried.

Just. skreeonk.
Once again, I think this whole topic is literally the argument for and against giving the death penalty/life to teenage school shooters. And I am 100% for it. ANY sympathy I had for her went right out the window when she ignored the pleas to stop once the fires began to build in Kyoto. At that point, the ONLY way I could ever see her actually be somewhat a decent character by the end is by sacrificing herself to stop Iris once absorbed.
Ok, this is a bit more understandable.


Yeah, the sheer loss of life she does is horrific. However, again, I do think the intent of the movie is she's being manipulated by Irys, and she's not really in control. Her grief and rage awoke Irys but HE is using her as the tool for his venagance. Not the other way around.

Not excusable but not conscious either.

Again, i take issue with the idea she suddenly doesn't deserve basic human dignity which I will grant even the worst person, but then again I'm a bleeding heart lol
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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She never committed an act of violence until after she had already been taken to Iris’s lair. It is never really made clear the extent to which Ayana influenced Iris or vice versa, but even the assumption that Ayana could have stopped Iris is just that, an assumption. TK states that Iris can become more powerful by forming a link with a human, but was she even a willing participant in that? It didn’t seem to make any difference to Iris.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Oh man, some of this discussion is really puritanical and gross…

Ayana has suffered quiet enough….and I really don’t understand the need or desire to see her suffer more. She’s essentially been raped by a monster and then coerced into killing her family amongst countless others.

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