Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

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Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Coobzilla03 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:19 am

Zarm
- Godzilla (Heisei)
- Battra
- Jiger
- Jet Jaguar
- Sanda
- Godzilla Junior
- Anguirus (1968)
- Mothra (2001)
- Zone FIGHTAH
- Shin Godzilla
- Male MUTO

Vs.

GodzillavsRayquaza
- Godzilla (GMK)
- Hedorah
- Titanosaurus
- Mothra (1964)
- Megalon
- Kumonga (Showa)
- The Big One
- Mothra ('03)
- Megaguirus
- Mechani-Kong
- Gigan (Showa)
- Destroyah

Arena: Planet X

The aggregates are automatically deployed for Zarm. Battra is in larval form. Voting may begin!
Last edited by Coobzilla03 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Zarm » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:02 pm

Well, this is different than I anticipated. But, just as anticipated all along, the major key to this battle is Shin Godzilla’s opening setup. Fortunately, as end-of-film Shin, this guy is more aggressive and won’t wait to attack. And in both cases, the stages of a Shin attack are as follows:

1. Billowing smoke becomes fire, becomes a beam that discharges 1 and ½ minutes, or beam is discharged instantly and lasts for 2 minutes.

2. Aerial targets are attacked first, with the phased-radar array allowing unerring precisions marksmanship, even toward extremely small, distant, fast-moving targets.

3. The beams then sweep the ground region, targeting each ground-based target/sweeping the surrounding region.

4. After approximately 1-and-a-half/2 minutes, depending on the type of attack, beam peters out (back into flames and smoke if that was how it started).

And therein lies a major portion of my victory. Because the key to weakening and defeating Hedorah is dehydration- and a skyscraper-height, blocks-wide ocean of fire and the start and end is going to do a lot to contribute to that. Likewise, any webbing that Kumonga has sprayed will be wiped away at the beginning and end of each Shin attack.

The sweep itself will hit aerial targets with unerring accuracy and deadly force- which will, for once, put an end to Megaguirus before she can even activate the high-frequency wave. (Which is why I chose Shin. Which was a lot more useful back before MechaGodzilla got disabled. :) ) Both Mothras are going to be wiped out as well. Meanwhile, the sleeping of the field is going to deliver some damage to everyone- the Big One, Mechani-Kong, and Titonsaurus especially being likely not to survive it at all.

And then, Shin will skeep.

Meanwhile, the male MUTO- who has lead with his EMP in multiple instances- will remove Mechani-Kong for sure, as well as hobbling Gigan. Megalon, by contrast, appears to be entirely organic and won’t be affected.

Nonetheless, that kicks off the battle proper- as the dust settles- with something like the following:
Godzilla (Heisei)
Battra (larval form)
Jet Jaguar
Jiger
Sanda
Godzilla Junior
Anguirus (1968)
Mothra (2001)
Zone Fighter
3 Destroyah Aggregates
Shin Godzilla (unconscious for 5 minutes)

Vs.

GMK (wounded)*
Hedorah (partially dehydrated)
Megalon (lightly wounded)
Kumonga (Moderately wounded)
Gigan (showa) (Moderately wounded and hobbled)
Destroyah (lightly wounded)


*Based on GMK’s known defeat conditions, it is entirely possible that Shin’s cutting-based beam could have left him with the kind of wound that will cause him to self-destruct. I leave it up to the individual voter to decide if this is so; I will proceed making the case as if that were not happening. If it seems plausible to you, just mentally substitute Heisei Godzilla helping out somewhere else. :)


Titanosaurus might also have survived, but will be in weak-enough condition as to be polished off very quickly.

The numbers look good for me- but I ain’t gonna lie; Hedorah, Megalon, and Destroyah are no small potatoes.

Heisei Godzilla will, of course, engage GMK. It won’t be an instant battle- but with pre-existing wounds, the outcome is not in question, just the amount of time it takes Heisei to win.

Jet Jaguar (who has proven capable of handling either Gigan or Megalon with the aid of a partner), with an assist from the male MUTO and Mothra, will take on Gigan and Megalon. Ordinarily, it would not be enough to defeat this duo- but Gigan’s been half shut-down and hit with a deadly Shin barrage- so this is quickly going to become a double-team of a lightly-wounded Megalon. And I think these two are tough enough to handle him in that condition.

Zone Fighter is going to engage Hedorah, with an assist from Jiger and her long-distance heat-ray (she’s going to stay well-clear). This is going to be the toughest battle here, no doubt; it was originally MechaGodzilla’s. But Hedorah is already hurting from being bathed in fire twice, and is going to be hit with a building-dissolving heat-ray multiple times, from far enough away that it can’t retaliate… and Zone Fighter engaged the original King Ghidorah and broke one of his necks, so he can hang tough. His barriers and ability to reflect both beams and projectiles are going to be key here. He’s not going to be going in for melee much- relying more of defensive powers, reflecting Hedorah’s ray back, and barrages of the Meteor Missile Might. Even so, he’s going to be badly burned, and may well be on his ‘two minutes left flashing red light’ by the end of 5 minutes. But he fought King Ghidorah for 4-and-a-half with a macguffin active that both sapped Zone’s strength and channeled the power of the sun into boosting King Ghidorah- and that battle ended, the macguffin destroyed, with King Ghidorah being the one to run away. So I think Zone will be able to at least hold out five minutes, until another bath of fire comes along from ‘ol Shin… and in the aftermath, finish Hedorah off with a final meteor missile might to tear the dehydrated titan apart before himself running out of juice.

Kumonga is going to get triple-teamed by the Aggregates, Sanda, and Anguirus. Anguirus is the sacrificial lamb here- and may well end up webbed and dead of poison by the end; but the swarming aggregates will get on Kumonga, where she can do nothing, injecting micro-oxygen and harassing with beams, while Sanda- his small size finally paying off- runs circles around the spider, hitting her from angles she can’t strike or web. And Anguirus will get in a few licks before here’s caught or killed. Even if Kumonga is still breathing a little by the end of 5 minutes, she’ll be in such poor shape that Shin will finish her off.

That leaves Destroyah. Battra is going to be leading the charge here, using that major damage soak and firing back with Heisei-level weaponry; Junior’s going to chip in with his ray. (And yes, Junior will probably die***- but if Destroyah follows his normal tactics, it will be sadistic and prolonged… and time is what I need). Battra isn’t going to win this battle, certainly; and Junior will doubtless fall… but they’ll be able to keep Destroyah occupied for long enough. Battra kept Heisei Godzilla occupied for several minutes; add to that the time taken to deal with Junior… Battra may be about ready to tap out by the end of 5 minutes, but by then…

Shin wakes up for round 2. A round 2 that- with far fewer targets to focus on- will spell the quick end of GMK, Megalon, Hedorah, and Kumonga, if any of them are still in the fight… as well as dealing additional damage to Destroyah; presumably, by this point and with Battra and Junior’s efforts, at least enough to use up the first break down and reformation, if not the second. (The fire also frees any webbed members of my team).

And then the fire abates… and Destroyah will have to face Heisei Godzilla, Jet Jaguar, Jiger, Sanda, Mothra, and 3 of its own aggreagates. (Destroyah ain’t gonna like getting injected with micro-oxygen… …Oh, wait. Gonna assume they don’t do that. ;) )

Jiger, Mothra, and the aggregates have the advantage of striking from a distance (and Mothra proving tactical, ambushing and being hard to catch); Heisei is the heavy-hitter, while Sanda and Jet Jaguar have sufficient agility to avoid the worst of the strikes as they gang up on him.

Even so, this is going to be a tough battle. The little guys will have the advantage of dealing with aggregates when they separate, but a good number of them may be dead by the time five minutes are up. If Destroyah takes the time to go after the distance-striking fighters instead of just the threats right in front of him, it’s entirely possible that only Heisei will be left facing him by the end of another five minutes. (Though he'll have gotten in some good licks during Destroyah's detour).

But when Shin wakes up a third time, unleashing a type-2 attack (instant beam, beam targeted from tail and mouth directly at a single target, for two minutes’ duration), or even the type 1 for consistency, along with rays and pulses from Heisei? Destroyah is not only going to be broken down under a concentrated assault, the barrage is going to sweep the aggregates with no survivors. The victory may be narrow, but my team can pull it off.

And all-in-all, I have sufficient numbers, and sufficient advantage from that opening sweep and EMP, to keep these battles going the requisite five minutes- at which point Shin comes back to finish the job. Even a less-optimistic appraisal of my interim performance isn’t going to be enough to eliminate that element; my team will not fall in five; and the ability to then gang up and hold Destroyah for another five, I think, is pretty certain. Even if someone manages to break through their dog-pile and attack the unconscious Shin (who has demonstrated a similar durability/regen level to Godzilla 2000**, at the very least) is going to give my team quite a few free shots. One way or another, I believe Shin’s destruction of Megaguirus and flames-as-byproduct covering the area for a wide range and sewing the seeds of Hedorah’s downfall, tip the scales- and his continued presence only clinches it.

There are various permutations, but between Shin's sweep and the EMP, I end up outnumbering the other team almost two to one. Between that, and the ability of several of my team members to strike from the sidelines, the odds fall in my favor for a number of them.


**Both had similar responses to military weaponry, ignoring most, taking some painful but apparently non-serious damage from some with deep-penetrating power. Both were stunned for a similar length of time when a building was dropped on them, both demonstrated the same continuing ability to bounce back time and again from heavy blows, regenerate damage and adapt, and never appeared to reach the threshold of defeat-by-injury despite temporary stunning.

***Remember that Junior was still recovering from having been strafed and attacked by multiple beams from the flying form, then having a melee, including having his wounds injected with micro-oxygen, bringing him to a near-death state. That was only a few hours past- something that his regen allowed him to rally from, but not without lasting trauma. After that, Sestroyah drug him around and dropped him from a great height, which was enough to finish him off. Now, Destroyah's final form can certainly still replicate those feats (he tends not to inject MO, but he has other weapons at his disposal; at least Junior is too short for the horn katana to reach!), but doing all of those things still takes time... certainly more than dispatching the already-wounded Junior in the film.
Last edited by Zarm on Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Coobzilla03 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:16 pm

As usual, bringing a solid argument to the table Zarm. But how do you figure who will fight who? It's just as likely that Zone Fighter could be left to fight Destroyah, or Jet Jaguar has to fight GMK.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Zarm » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:36 pm

Coobzilla03 wrote:As usual, bringing a solid argument to the table Zarm. But how do you figure who will fight who? It's just as likely that Zone Fighter could be left to fight Destroyah, or Jet Jaguar has to fight GMK.


That is a good question- and the same one could be raised on the arguments for almost any match. I tend to assume that a kaiju will go after another one against which he has some chance. :) It also makes sense (to me) for the Godzillas to gravitate toward one another, as they typically have in every match this tournament, the bosses to gravitate toward one another, etc. Sanda and Anguirus, as showa meleers, seem a natural fit for Kumonga, Jet Jaguar has traditionally gone after Megalon, etc.

That said, the key advantage here is that the most impactful effects- fire washing over the field, the bean sweep, and EMP- happened regardless of target. They're universal. Shin's tendency first hit aerial targets, and then thrash back and forth across the field at ground level, with a built-in targeting system to ensure that he does hit anything that looks like a threat (in both cases only going after the surrounding buildings after all visible threats in the area have been neutralized) are proven qualities of his behavior.

And that leaves me with an advantage of 10 (counting the 3 aggregates as a single unit, and skipping Shin for being unconscious) against anywhere from 5 to 7, depending on your point of view on Titanosaurus and Gigan, but with both of them in shape to be quickly eliminated if the sweep hasn't eliminated them already. So team-ups are inevitable, and the battle has the potential to quickly reach the point of being two against one in every match-up.

In addition, that means that fighters that do not want to engage- the unconscious Shin, Jiger- have enough warm bodies on the field, closing to melee range or otherwise engaging, that there really isn't anyone left to come after them, and they can attack from a distancr at their leisure. And if the enemy does break through the lines and approach these stragglers, who remain at their starting positions, taking the time out to do that will only further burn seconds on the clock until Shin wakes up again, and give other fighters on the field free shots at them as they make their way over.

All of these elements are present in the fight before anyone select their targets to engage. Before we reach the point of 'who's fighting who?', all of these elements are already in place for the battle.


That said, I do think that once battle selection starts, Heisei Godzilla, Zone Fighter, and Battra have the ability to take on anybody left on the field. Not necessarily victoriously- but to engage them for the requisite time until Shin's next awakening. If any of them engage Kumonga, I would see her falling pretty immediately, thus freeing them up to go after another target.

I think that Heisei could defeat Hedorah, Kumonga, Gigan and Megalon in their current condition, or occupy Destroyah. Battra could take on Hedorah, Kumonga, Megalon, and possibly GMK. Zone Fighter could deal with Gigan and Megalon (again, Gigan being half-dead already), Kumonga, and at least do some damage to GMK or Destroyah for a majority of the five minutes. Jet Jaguar could take on Kumonga, and could make a decent showing against GMK (or a valiant-but-doomed stand against Destroyah) with a tag-team partner.

The male MUTO can make not-insignificant contributions to pretty much any of these fights except Hedorah, Jiger's quills and heat ray will be helpful supplements to any of them, as will Junior's atomic ray. And so on, and so forth.

It's not there are no unfavorable matchups- but with the numbers being brought to bear, and the three heavy hitters being able to take on pretty much any dance partner and hold out for the requisite amount of time before Shin comes in and produces another devastating universal effect, I think the case is fairly strong regardless of which individual matchups occur.

(That's not to say that there are no paths to defeat. Simply that the paths to cictory outnumber them, because they are dependent more on universally-applicable conditions than they are on specific matchups. Destoroyah is the big one, the numbers game, but as long as there's at least 1 heavy hitter and Shin left to engage him b the end of 10 minutes, which I do believe there will be, then I think that victory can be achieved.)
Last edited by Zarm on Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Giratina93 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:24 pm

This fight... oh boy. This is a clusterskreeonk in it's own right. On the one side, the Male Muto is guaranteed to disable Mechani-Kong (who will not be missed, because useless monkey robot), and on the other side, Megs takes a far greater bite out of Zarm's team with Jet Jaguar going down. This is big because Jet Jaguar is one of the few heavy hitters Zarm has on his team, and that kind of a loss is crippling.

Now, regarding the team captains: Heisei Godzilla is vastly superior to GMK in basically every way. Better more spammable beam, stronger feats, more durable, actual regen, nuclear pulse... GMK is going to get worn down and defeated by him in a 1v1. GMK also has to worry about a surprise attack from the Male Muto, who's claws are PERFECT for stabbing holes into him, and if one gets punched in the beam trackway... well, it's an early 4th of July on the battlefield.

However, the problem then becomes the fact that GvR's team is packing so many goddamn powerhouses and nightmares for Zarm to handle. Showa Kumonga, Hedorah, Titanosaurus, Megalon, Gigan, and Destroyah. On Zarm's side, the powerhouses are... Heisei Godzilla, Zone Fighter to a lesser extent, and Shin as well. Zone Fighter was getting his ass handed to him by Showa Ghidorah, and almost all of the powerhouses on GvR's team are as nasty, if not moreso than Showa Ghidorah. Everyone else on Zarm's team is either canon fodder, a glass cannot that REALLY doesn't want to be hit (Male Muto, Battra if he evolves) or a tank with not much in the way of firepower (Battra larvae, Showa Angy). The presence of the Mothras on GvR's team can be a nasty distraction against the Male Muto, or Dessy can just fly on up after him and chase him to the ends of the earth. In short, GvR's team has much better quality of lesser fighters than Zarm's does, while Zarm has the more potent team captain, and while Heisei Godzilla can handle almost any one or even two of GvR's guys on his own, eventually it WILL go down to Heisei getting swarmed and bodied.

Now, you may have noticed that I didn't mention Shin except for once, and that's because Shin.... Shin is as much a danger to his own team as to the enemy team. When the bombers blasted a hole in his back, he FREAKED THE skreeonk OUT and lashed out against anything and everything around him, environment be damned. Even in the final assault at the end of the movie, it was more of the same lashing out at everything, until Shin had to go with the mouth and tail beam and be more precise, and even THAT still was lasers in every direction. He's just as likely to have his beams burn lines or even cut through his own teammates as the enemies he's trying to attack. And as I noted before, GvR's guys are, for the most part, more durable and powerful than Zarm's. Though, I WILL laugh if Mothra 03's scales surround Shin and he just cuts himself into bloody ribbons from his beams reflected back at him.

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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Coobzilla03 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:37 pm

No friendly fire, meaning Shin's beams will... phase through his allies? Regardless, the only guys getting sliced will be on GvR's side.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Giratina93 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:39 pm

Well then... completely disregard my entire last part of the argument. Still gonna lean GvR...
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GotengoXGodzilla wrote: It could be said that kaiju regeneration is like human dodging, basically.


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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Zarm » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:44 am

Giratina93 wrote:This fight... oh boy. This is a clusterskreeonk in it's own right. On the one side, the Male Muto is guaranteed to disable Mechani-Kong (who will not be missed, because useless monkey robot), and on the other side, Megs takes a far greater bite out of Zarm's team with Jet Jaguar going down. This is big because Jet Jaguar is one of the few heavy hitters Zarm has on his team, and that kind of a loss is crippling.


This is precisely why I picked Shin. Shin has unerring accuracy against midair targets (as evidenced with the bombers and drones, and the existence of the phased radar array), and a proven tendency to hit aerial targets first (as well as an end-of-movie aggressiveness, meaning he isn't going to wait to attack). So I would suggest that Megaguirus and the Mothras will be taken out immediately, in the first few seconds of the battle, and Jet Jaguar will be up-and-at-'em. :) So I would suggest that this be a factor as well- all GvR's flyers are going to get downed in the opening moments of the initial Shin sweep, just as soon as his fire has coalesced into a beam, Gigan is going to be half-disabled (all his machine parts down), and Jet Jaguar will be hale and hearty. :) And I don't think Titano or the Big One is going to handle Shin's beam-sweep well; everyone on ground-level is going to be thrashed by Shin-beams, taking at least some injury (putting Gigan in really bad shape), and every five minutes that the battle is still active, a kaiju-height ocean of fire (which will dissolve Kumonga webbing and further dehydrate Hedorah) is going to wash over the battlefield, followed by a one-and-a-half minute beam barrage.

Which, I hope, may convince you to re-analyse the battle...? :)


Giratina93 wrote:Zone Fighter was getting his ass handed to him by Showa Ghidorah,

Actually, King Ghidorah was using the Dark Prism, a device that both channels the power of the sun directly into him, artificially empowering him, and blocks the sun from naturally recharging Zone Fighter. Even then, the fight lasted 4 and a half minutes, had Zone Fighter on the ropes but not defeated, and ended with King Ghidorah retreating shortly after the sun was restored, from Zone’s attacks.

The second time, Zone was downed due to a plot-device fluke in which he was struck in the face and temporarily blinded (something which is, again, a story-fluke, as it did not occur in the first, far more vicious battle, or later) after 2 and a half minutes of battle; he hadn’t lost the ability to fight. In fact, when his eyesight recovered and he engaged King Ghidorah again, he beat down King Ghidorah so badly that he broke one of his necks. Zone is a heavier hitter than people often think- especially with reflective barriers that can turn beam and projectile attacks back at the attacker.


Giratina93 wrote:Battra if he evolves

Definitely staying larva. Fortunately, I don't think the tournament mechanics give Battra the option! :)


Giratina93 wrote:or Dessy can just fly on up after him and chase him to the ends of the earth.

This is true- but that will leave the battlefield very much one-sided in my favor (based on the aforementioned early-battle losses of Megaguirus and the Mothras, Titano, The Big One, and Gigan, and the presence of Jet Jaguar), and would let me really rally the forces and have them waiting, unopposed, to engage Destroyah when he comes back. I definitely recognize that Destroyah is the threat here- and that he will take out several of my kaiju at least. The big question is whether my team, aggregates included, can field enough members after the remainder of the field has been dealt with to bring the needed numbers against him. But I do think so, based on the numbers-reduction at the start and ongoing effect that Shin will continue to have. It's all a matter of holding out until those five-minute sweeps...


Giratina93 wrote:Though, I WILL laugh if Mothra 03's scales surround Shin and he just cuts himself into bloody ribbons from his beams reflected back at him.

That is a fair point. I would suggest that she wouldn't have time before she is beam-swept right at the start, but the theoretical possibility exists. :(
Last edited by Zarm on Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby GodzillavsRayquaza » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:14 pm

End of film Shin did not have a wave of fire preceding his beams, thus the fire storm is a non factor. End of film Shin was also far more precise and reserved with his beams, a far cry from the thrashing recklessness of his first usage of the Ultra Atomic Ray. So if he does choose to sweep the field, things will be difficult for me as Zarm said. And if Shin chooses instead to be more precise with his beams, only attacking those that attack him, that may be worse. Sure, my heavy hitters can survive a sweep of the field, but Destoroyah is the only one on my team I believe could survive being singled out by Shin. But what I do know is that once Shin’s burnt out, there will be a statue that my entire team will have good reason to see destroyed, something Destoroyah or Hedorah could easily see to.

Zarm wrote: I tend to assume that a kaiju will go after another one against which he has some chance.

Remember, the combatants have no foreknowledge on their opponents, meaning they have no idea how much of a chance they have. So, Anguirus may charge Hedorah and attempt to bite him, only to die from swallowing acidic sludge. Or Zone Fighter may run up to Destoroyah, throw a punch, only to get bumped to the ground and dragged around. Though, this goes both ways, meaning Megaguirus may try stabbing Shin in the back, only to get melted. Or Kumonga will attempt to poison Jet Jaguar, only to break her stinger against his steel leg.

On the topic of Zone Fighter, how often does he use his ranged abilities? Because my assumption is that, like most Toku heroes, he prefers to fight in melee for most of the battle, then usually finishes with one of his special abilities. Not to say his melee is anything to disregard, the fact that he broke one of King Ghidorah’s necks is rather impressive. But if he does go for Hedorah like you predict, he’s going to open with a punch, and we know how that went for Godzilla. That, and he only has five minutes in this battle, so taking time to soften up a foe before delivering the killing blow isn’t going to end well. Is there any indication he could actually spam any of his special abilities, because otherwise he’s not going to gain much headway against my team as a whole. By the way, how much of an amplification did King Ghidorah actually get? Was there anything suggesting it made KG more durable than usual?

Hedorah will be difficult for whoever battles him. Heisei Godzilla, Zone Fighter, and Battra are the only ones who can really do much to him (Jiger could hurt him, but she’d need someone else working to distract Hedorah if she wants to actually survive for more than a few seconds.). Though he could battle anyone, I lean towards him fighting Battra, just because Battra’s status as a guardian of nature may cause him to register Hedorah as a priority. Though I see this as rather bad for me, as even if Hedorah can get through Battra’s armor, he won’t be coming out of it without a lot of damage.

For the match as a whole at the moment, i’m on the fence. Shin is the difficult part, as he could either remove all my non-powerhouses or slice one strong member of my team to ribbons. If Shin can be killed before he gets a second round of beams off, I lean myself taking it barely, but if not I have no idea. Part of the difficulty with deciding matches this big is all the various possibilities, which is why it’s taken me a bit of time to actually give my thoughts on the match (that and general laziness).
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Coobzilla03 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:37 pm

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:On the topic of Zone Fighter, how often does he use his ranged abilities?


From what I've seen, Zone Fighter uses his weapons as a finisher mostly, but will occasionally use one if he's having some trouble. He also cannot spam weapons without running out of solar power*. However, Zarm is more knowledgeable on ZF than I am so...

*Could being on Planet X negatively affect Zone Fighter's limit? There doesn't appear to be any sunlight on Planet X, if I remember correctly. I also could be wrong on ZF's source of energy being solar.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Zarm » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:19 am

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:End of film Shin did not have a wave of fire preceding his beams, thus the fire storm is a non factor.

To my mind, that is a demonstrated capability. Fire was still outputted at the end, so clearly his body still produced that reaction; I see no reason that he could not voluntarily elect to do either. But, I would concede the point (which definitely makes Hedorah a lot tougher unless he coincidentally happens to run out of steam specifically whiel attacking it, since there's only a little burst of fire at the end as the breath fades), in recognition of the longer duration and greater accuracy.


GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:But what I do know is that once Shin’s burnt out, there will be a statue that my entire team will have good reason to see destroyed, something Destoroyah or Hedorah could easily see to.

Shin's demonstrated extreme durability- as I said, almost identically comparable to G2000. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying he can't be killed- just that it's not gonna be a 'walk up, take a shot, job's done.' It's going to take some concerted effort- and with the numbers I assert (the downing of the flyers, the Big One, and demise or near-demise of Gigan and Titano) from the sweep, there are going to be combatants available to be attacking everyone on your team. (We can debate the point, but even if only a few of them fall, the numbers will still be one-to-one). Plus, on the assumption (which there generally is) that the groups start a ways apart and move to close range (otherwise, someone like Heisei or G2000 could just open with a pulse and hit everyone, if they all start point-blank), Shin will be back at starting position- while the entire rest of the team, moving to engage their counterparts, will stand between your team and Shin.

Anyone going after Shin will have to choose between ignoring incoming attacks (like Jiger's) in order to focus on Shin, taking damage while not retaliating... or dealing with their attackers first, leaving Shin be. Which they might be able to, if, say, Jiger decides to rush Destroyah for some reason, or Junior decides to dive into Hedorah. :) But unless they have opponents that they can blaze through instantly, they will either be stuck in an engagement with a stronger foe, delayed while dispatching a weaker one, or attacked from behind the whole time as they cross to within range and begin attacking Shin, and all throughout the process of wearing him down. (Again; the contention I have is primarily 'each just needs to hold their opponent for five minutes, because the field changes radically each time those five minutes are up.' And I think most fighters or groups here have the potential to do that, allowing Shin to at least reach a second sweep.)

Either way, if enough power is focused on Shin to take him down, I would see the damage taken by the attacker as fairly compensatory to what a second sweep would do, regardless- albeit just to him, not to the whole of your team- for the amount of punishment he'd have to absorb from unopposed others while doing the attacking.


GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:On the topic of Zone Fighter, how often does he use his ranged abilities? Because my assumption is that, like most Toku heroes, he prefers to fight in melee for most of the battle, then usually finishes with one of his special abilities. Not to say his melee is anything to disregard, the fact that he broke one of King Ghidorah’s necks is rather impressive.

This is accurate. Some of the lower-power tactics- listed below, like the slicing arrows- are used more often, and even the proton beam or meteor missile might if the battle is going poorly... but he tends to lead with melee unless there is some obvious reason that he shouldn't. (He does have human intelligence).


GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:That, and he only has five minutes in this battle, so taking time to soften up a foe before delivering the killing blow isn’t going to end well.

My contention was that he only had to last five minutes before Shin would come in for another assist; to the best of my knowledge, he does not have a limit- save when his energy runs low, and a light begins flashing, meaning he only has another 110 seconds left to fight. Reaching that limit is dependent on his special weapon usage (meteor missile might, his usual finisher, would drain the power after only a few shots; proton beam, which can one-shot a number of kaiju, drains it to red-light status immediately), and damage taken. But 4-and-a-half-minutes of getting attacked by a powered-up King Ghidorah was not enough to force him to that status, so damage alone does not get him to that point easily.


GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:Is there any indication he could actually spam any of his special abilities, because otherwise he’s not going to gain much headway against my team as a whole. By the way, how much of an amplification did King Ghidorah actually get? Was there anything suggesting it made KG more durable than usual?


He can spam certain attacks- especially level 1 of the arrow beam- in the lower-powered list below. The limitations of the offensive abilities are noted above (though both tend to be powerful enough that there is little need to fight beyond them). The defensive/reflective barriers also use a similar high level of power, and are mostly used against a spammer (since they only last a few seconds), whose incoming attack is pretty certain.

The plasma capsule (a sort of shockwave, described as 'zapping' foes, though not visibly electric in nature), arrow beams (which can be fired at lower levels, are extremely cutting, and have a good chance of removing limbs, or head at the higher levels), Subduing Mist (a tranquilizing agent that makes the foe less aggressive), Meteor Windmill (building up speed with aerial loop-the-loops before body-slamming an opponent at high speed), Freezing Mist, Meteor Static Power (conveying a powerful electrical charge into a nearby object and using it to deliver said shock), Meteor Jet (a short burst of super-speed), Uzi-punch (rapid-fire super-speed punches), and Meteor Kicks do not have any noted energy limit. (Although I would suspect those last four, while not as costly as the Meteor Missile Might or Proton Beam, could still only be used a few times, rather than indefinitely).


In terms of the amplification Ghidorah got, the dialogue is rather nebulous. My assumption is that it was primarily an increase in his attack power (as well as an ongoing diminishment of Zone Fighter's, the primary effect). (Either way, the neck-breaking was in a separate engagement, after this power alteration was removed; the main thing demonstrated by that engagement is more of how tough Zone can hang, lasting nearly a full five minutes with KG elevated and himself weakened- and when that disparity was removed by third parties, still being strong enough after surviving that beating to be the one that drove King Ghidorah off rather than vice-versa).


Coobzilla03 wrote:
GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:On the topic of Zone Fighter, how often does he use his ranged abilities?


From what I've seen, Zone Fighter uses his weapons as a finisher mostly, but will occasionally use one if he's having some trouble. He also cannot spam weapons without running out of solar power*. However, Zarm is more knowledgeable on ZF than I am so...

*Could being on Planet X negatively affect Zone Fighter's limit? There doesn't appear to be any sunlight on Planet X, if I remember correctly. I also could be wrong on ZF's source of energy being solar.


Zone Fighter runs on Proton Power, as far as I understand (supplied by the device on his head, which can be recharged by power beams), and supplemented additionally during the fight with solar power. Being deprived of that by a special prism that drained it from him did weaken him (as mentioned, he was still able to stay in a fight, being attacked by King Ghidorah, for a good 4 minutes in that condition)... but he has also had multiple fights at night, so I don't think it's a sudden weakness unless it's being artificially drained. Lacking sunlight, I'd guess that he wouldn't be able to last as long as he would in sunlight, but it would be the kind of difference that would only show in long-term endurance, rather than having an immediate effect.

(That said... do we know it wasn't just nighttime on Planet X when they landed? I mean, it's in Earth's solar system; it's 'behind Jupiter' in the story- maybe eclipsed- but logistically, its orbit would have it in sun half the time; unless one side of the planet was tidally-locked toward the surface of Jupiter at all times (but I don't think we saw Jupiter in the sky).

Plus, Zone Fighter did break one of KG's necks here, on 'Venus', which doesn't look any sunnier:)
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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby GodzillavsRayquaza » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:44 am

Apologies for taking so long to come back to this. And apologies to anyone who saw my absence as an attempt to “run down the clock”, I did not intend to do that at all. To be quite honest, I could not think of a good rebuttal to most of Zarm’s arguments. That, and i’m not sure why, but I just couldn’t really bother trying to come up with a rebuttal for the past day or so. Not that I didn’t have the time, I certainly could have argued for quite a while, but I just didn’t really want to. But still, thank you for having me Coobzilla, his has been a great tournament, and congratulations Zarm. You had better arguments this round, and my inability to really counter them should demonstrate who deserves the win here.
King of the Monsters wrote:You guys, this Godzilla was clearly the next GINO from the point its silhouette was revealed on that poster and it wasn't just the Heisei Godzilla. Any true fan would feel the same way.


SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:Man, I can't believe this series that started as a condemnation of nuclear weapons, Cold War arm races and called for humanity coming together MIGHT DARE TO BE (le gasp) political

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Re: Monster Mayhem Final: Zarm vs. GodzillavsRayquaza

Postby Coobzilla03 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:37 am

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:thank you for having me Coobzilla, this has been a great tournament,


Pleasure was all mine! Glad you enjoyed it... but before you go, I have a special bonus round in mind. Any who, tie breaker coming forth.

I think everything Zarm has said pretty much covers what I think will happen. Most of GvR's team, which most members are under par in durability, will be killed and maimed. From there, there's not much GvR's team can do just because of the numbers deficit. In the end I see Zarm's team looking like this:

- Godzilla (Heisei) (regenerating)
- Battra (wounded)
- Shin Godzilla (regenerating)

Shin's too OP.
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