Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
My hierarchy of enjoyment is:
Fights >>>>>> Characters >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Themea
Fights >>>>>> Characters >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Themea
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Monster Presence (Literal on-screen representation and/or being very present in character motivations and story decisions)>>>>>Ideas>>>>>>Monster fights>>>>>Story>>>>>Characters>>>>>Everything else
What matters most to me is that A monster is present and they're important to the plot (ex.solo films, right?) Fights are not everything by a long shot, no....but we all love them and while the human characters are important for plot purposes, they're largely expendable (though being more than pleasant or fun is great as well, obviously).
What matters most to me is that A monster is present and they're important to the plot (ex.solo films, right?) Fights are not everything by a long shot, no....but we all love them and while the human characters are important for plot purposes, they're largely expendable (though being more than pleasant or fun is great as well, obviously).
Last edited by phantomsdaydreams on Sat May 01, 2021 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Movies are entertainment media. To get a good message across, something needs to be engaging and or entertaining. While it might sound a bit low brow, entertainment is just as important in endearing an audience to a character or concept as much as engaging themes or dynamics between characters. And, appealing to an inner child is a genuine way to make something stick.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
After KotM and GvsK, I still think fights are important, but much, much, much less important than decent scripts, good acting, and better direction.
Holy cow the last couple MV movies really dumbed things down.
Holy cow the last couple MV movies really dumbed things down.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
No they’re not
You could make a damn good Godzilla/ monster movie without needing them to fight another monster.
It’s such a cringe take.
You could make a damn good Godzilla/ monster movie without needing them to fight another monster.
Yeah, seriously.
It’s such a cringe take.
Last edited by GodzillaRangerPrime on Sat May 15, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
I didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.Thatguy4683 wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Not just the redeeming feature, the fights, Kaiju, and action are the entire point of the MV, which i and many others love. We have the newer TOHO films for experimentation, narrative, and character focuses, and the MV for good ‘ol giant monster brawls and plain-old colorful blockbuster fun.Vakanai wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:21 pmI didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.Thatguy4683 wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Entirely agree dudeJermobooka wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pmNot just the redeeming feature, the fights, Kaiju, and action are the entire point of the MV, which i and many others love. We have the newer TOHO films for experimentation, narrative, and character focuses, and the MV for good ‘ol giant monster brawls and plain-old colorful blockbuster fun.Vakanai wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:21 pmI didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.Thatguy4683 wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
So, some of the basic and fundamental elements of storytelling...
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
When i say “narrative and character focuses” i mean things like Shin Gojira and the Polygon Trilogy. Both of those have a lot more focus on the characters than the kaiju, for better (Shin) and for worse (Polygon)
I mean “Fight/kaiju focus” to be more along the lines of KOTM and GvK
Last edited by Jermobooka on Sat May 15, 2021 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Disagree - the MV's entire point wasn't just the CGI kaiju brawls until these last two movies. G14 and Kong: Skull Island also focused on plots and characterization as well. But the last two movies dropped all that, and sadly not for the better. But you cannot argue that the MV was always just about the monster brawls and nothing else.Jermobooka wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pmNot just the redeeming feature, the fights, Kaiju, and action are the entire point of the MV, which i and many others love. We have the newer TOHO films for experimentation, narrative, and character focuses, and the MV for good ‘ol giant monster brawls and plain-old colorful blockbuster fun.Vakanai wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:21 pmI didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.Thatguy4683 wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
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But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.Jermobooka wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:48 pmWhen i say “narrative and character focuses” i mean things like Shin Gojira and the Polygon Trilogy. Both of those have a lot more focus on the characters than the kaiju, for better (Shin) and for worse (Polygon)
I mean “Fight/kaiju focus” to be more along the lines of KOTM and GvK
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)
Spoiler:
Last edited by Terasawa on Sat May 15, 2021 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
I meant more that, the “action/kaiju” focus is where the MV is now and will likely continue to go, but not so much as GvK.Vakanai wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm
Disagree - the MV's entire point wasn't just the CGI kaiju brawls until these last two movies. G14 and Kong: Skull Island also focused on plots and characterization as well. But the last two movies dropped all that, and sadly not for the better. But you cannot argue that the MV was always just about the monster brawls and nothing else.
I doubt the direction of GvK is gonna continue. The reason GvK had very little in terms of story and characters with a fuck ton of spectacle was because Wingard knew most audiences just wanted to see cool fights between two cinematic icons, which he deliveredVakanai wrote: But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
Now that the big crossover is out of the way, i’m certain the MV will be going back to more of how KOTM and K:SI were. Characters/story of K:SI mixed with the badass fight style and choreography of GvK would be the absolute happiest medium IMO
Last edited by Jermobooka on Sat May 15, 2021 5:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
I think Vakanai was using both "narrative" and "character" to modify "focus." So, not saying, "it had no narrative, and no character focus;" but rather, "it had no narrative focus, and no character focus."Terasawa wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)Spoiler:
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by eabaker on Sat May 15, 2021 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Oops, yeah, probably so. Not been a banner day for me around here.eabaker wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 7:14 pmI think Vakanai was using both "narrative" and "character" to modify "focus." So, not saying, "it had no narrative, and no character focus;" but rather, "it had no narrative focus, and no character focus."Terasawa wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)Spoiler:
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
...dramatic film? GvK wasn't a dramatic film. Maybe you watched the wrong movie? GvK is the one where the big lizard fights the big monkey. Oh, not the one with the Rock in it!Terasawa wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)Spoiler:
Joking aside, no. There's no way that gutting basic storytelling like characterization was to this movie's credit. It was the dumbest Godzilla to date. It's also the film with the best action/fighting to date too.
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You're right, that is where the MV is now. And for me, this is not a good development. Some of us like stories to go with out giant monster mayhem. Some fans may be overjoyed with this change, but I'm not. It's disappointing.Jermobooka wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:35 pmI meant more that, the “action/kaiju” focus is where the MV is now and will likely continue to go, but not so much as GvK.Vakanai wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm
Disagree - the MV's entire point wasn't just the CGI kaiju brawls until these last two movies. G14 and Kong: Skull Island also focused on plots and characterization as well. But the last two movies dropped all that, and sadly not for the better. But you cannot argue that the MV was always just about the monster brawls and nothing else.
I doubt the direction of GvK is gonna continue. The reason GvK had very little in terms of story and characters with a skreeonk ton of spectacle was because Wingard knew most audiences just wanted to see cool fights between two cinematic icons, which he deliveredVakanai wrote: But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
Now that the big crossover is out of the way, i’m certain the MV will be going back to more of how KOTM and K:SI were. Characters/story of K:SI mixed with the badass fight style and choreography of GvK would be the absolute happiest medium IMO
And while I wish "not so much as GvK" were true, if anything I suspect future movies will be worse on this front.
He did deliver that - and it did so well during a pandemic I've no reason at all to think that future films will inject attempts at storytelling in it again. If anything I see them doubling down on this direction. It will no longer be films you watch, but fight scenes you wait for someone to upload onto Youtube because that's all that matters now. I don't see it going back to G14 or K:SI any time soon.
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(Not to be a downer, a film that combined K:SI's storytelling and GvK's action would be the happiest thing for me too - but I don't see that happening...)
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Of course monster fights are important lmao. Monster fights are basically the justification for this franchise's existence. Human characters will always be secondary to me. However, good human characters will also elevate a film for me.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
I just really don't think an extra half hour or more explaining why
Spoiler:
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?
Basically yes. Technically you can't do a scripted story with characters without a narrative or characterization, but here that was not given a focus.eabaker wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 7:14 pmI think Vakanai was using both "narrative" and "character" to modify "focus." So, not saying, "it had no narrative, and no character focus;" but rather, "it had no narrative focus, and no character focus."Terasawa wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)Spoiler:
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Added in 5 minutes 28 seconds:
If that was the characterization/plot gutted, agreed. But that's not what I meant. I wasn't talking so much about what got cut in filming or editing, I meant the script/plot itself was written without a care for narrative or characterization, and the direction doubled down on that. There should have been better stuff written in and provided for. It was gutted before filming began. The gutting was part of the process. All to dumb the movie down. And god(zilla) damn it, it worked for the GA.Terasawa wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 8:40 pmI just really don't think an extra half hour or more explaining whywould have made the movie all that much better. So I'm content with a two-hour film mostly devoid of substance. I found it so much more entertaining than KotM and enjoyed it considerably more than KSI, too. I don't think it was a good movie but it was an entertaining one. So for me, yes, that was absolutely to the film's benefit.Spoiler:
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Also, if you enjoyed it more than K:SI we couldn't be more different...
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If I were to rank these movies: K:SI > G14 >>> KotM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GvK.
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