Will Toho use suits?

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, the Godzilla anime trilogy, Godzilla Singular Point and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.

Will Toho use suits again going forward?

Yes
18
46%
No
21
54%
 
Total votes: 39

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Cryptid_Liker
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Cryptid_Liker »

Gailah 1966 wrote:I personally hope that Toho will use suits & CGI together.
Like the Ultraman special effects but more polished? That would be nice. Like maybe there could be a shot of Godzilla roaring with CGI facial enhancement and atomic breath.

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Living Corpse
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Living Corpse »

Vakanai wrote:
tyrantgoji wrote:
Vakanai wrote: I don't think making Ghidorah a wing walker was a cost cutting measure - there's really nothing less to animate because he's walking on all fours instead of two. Can't speak for some of the other decisions, but that one doesn't seem budgetary.
Honestly i feel like having his wings actually move would probably cost more. It's one more thing to animate on an already highly detailed CGI model.
But his wings -did- move, that's how he walked. Actually because they had to move to get him around they probably had to move/be animated more not less.
Because King Ghidorah was hunched over a lot with his wings folded a lot of shots do not even show his wings, heck a lot of shots were close ups of his heads, so that was less to animate. Where as making a prop you pay for x amount to be made and then can use them in as many shots as you want, CGI artist are paid for every frame they have to animate something.

Added in 1 minute 26 seconds:
Gailah 1966 wrote:I personally hope that Toho will use suits & CGI together.
Yeah, I've been saying that for years. People still act like it's gonna be one or the other. I think it's gonna depend on who is making a film at any given time.
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by tbeasley »

I think suits will always be involved in some way, whether for marketing or similar endeavors. It's an important and well known facet of the franchise. But with the last few depictions of the character being entirely computer generated (Third Street, MonsterVerse, Shin and Filius/Earth), I think it might be here to stay.
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Gigantis »

tbeasley wrote:I think suits will always be involved in some way, whether for marketing or similar endeavors. It's an important and well known facet of the franchise. But with the last few depictions of the character being entirely computer generated (Third Street, MonsterVerse, Shin and Filius/Earth), I think it might be here to stay.
Maybe they'll make suits for smaller events (like publicity stunts) but stick to CG in movies?
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Living Corpse
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Living Corpse »

Maybe animaltronics for some scenes.
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Vakanai
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Vakanai »

Living Corpse wrote:
Vakanai wrote:
tyrantgoji wrote:
Honestly i feel like having his wings actually move would probably cost more. It's one more thing to animate on an already highly detailed CGI model.
But his wings -did- move, that's how he walked. Actually because they had to move to get him around they probably had to move/be animated more not less.
Because King Ghidorah was hunched over a lot with his wings folded a lot of shots do not even show his wings, heck a lot of shots were close ups of his heads, so that was less to animate. Where as making a prop you pay for x amount to be made and then can use them in as many shots as you want, CGI artist are paid for every frame they have to animate something.

Added in 1 minute 26 seconds:
Gailah 1966 wrote:I personally hope that Toho will use suits & CGI together.
Yeah, I've been saying that for years. People still act like it's gonna be one or the other. I think it's gonna depend on who is making a film at any given time.
Heads are harder to animate aren't they? A lot of facial expressions. I really just don't see any part of the design being done to reduce CGI costs.
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Denis
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Reiwa era: Will they continue with CGI or will they go back to Suitmation

Post by Denis »

This topic has been talked around a lot here, but I feel like it’s worth talking about again. Especially since, we are seeing a trend of Godzilla being portrayed in CGI (Although Shin Godzilla was portrayed in motion capture as well). And with the recent Godzilla ride, Godzilla: Giant Monsters Ultimate Battle the monsters at least seemly portrayed in CGI. We also seen a Boss ad which showed Godzilla is portrayed, seemly by Suitmation. So the main question is do you guys think Toho should go continue to go forward with CGI and basically leave Suitmation for smaller stuff like ads. Or do you think Toho will go back to Suitmation for large projects?

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Re: Reiwa era: Will they continue with CGI or will they go back to Suitmation

Post by Jetty_Jags »

I hope they pick up suitmation again, but I doubt it.
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Re: Reiwa era: Will they continue with CGI or will they go back to Suitmation

Post by Dinoskell »

I think they got rid of most of the buildings they use for suitmation, and they did fill in the pool. I think any suitmation we see in the future will mostly be collaborations.

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Re: Reiwa era: Will they continue with CGI or will they go back to Suitmation

Post by LegendZilla »

I think we have to come to terms with the fact that suitmation (aside from TV Tokusatsu) is a dead art, just like stop-motion animation as done by Harryhausen.

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Re: Reiwa era: Will they continue with CGI or will they go back to Suitmation

Post by Gigantis »

LegendZilla wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:46 pm I think we have to come to terms with the fact that suitmation (aside from TV Tokusatsu) is a dead art,
If there's still someone out there using the artform, it's not dead. That's not what you call dead art.

TBH I feel like Toho could go back to suitmation, but it most likely won't be anytime soon.
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Vakanai »

I think suitmation is going to be relegated to things like commercials, collaborations, smaller projects like short films or those live shows, while their theatrical films, rides, and bigger projects in general (even their anime, as much as I'd like a 2D Godzilla...) will all use CGI to bring the monsters to life - with the possibility of some measure of practical effects to enhance the CG work like what the Jurassic Park/World films do sometimes.

Ultimately, I'm okay with this development. Not that I have anything against suitmation of course, I mean I'm a kaiju fan - but their CGI looks good, I thought Shin was amazingly well done in that department (never mind that it's the best Godzilla movie of this century, Japanese or American) whether it was film Shin, ride Shin (vs NGE), or short film Shin (a couple museum videos and the like). And their CGI presumably has only improved to some extent in the half decade since, and their most recent ride has a Godzilla design that many of us would love to see get used in one of their theatrical movies it looks so good. And beyond that, while Toho may not use suitmation anymore, it's not dead. Ultraman and pretty much all other television kaiju shows can't afford that kind of CGI for a tv/streaming show so they'll still use suits. Indie kaiju films and short films can't afford good CGI so we'll still get things like Howl from Beyond the Fog or the upcoming Brush of the God.

While Toho will probably go all in on CGI, most especially for their theatrical releases, and honestly they probably should (they also have to compete with Chinese and South Korean productions more, and those countries use CGI), there's still going to be enough suitmation elsewhere this decade to provide a healthy balance of variety. I mean look at films in the Western world now - we only get CGI spectacles on the big screen, but there's a rise in practical effects movies intended for the small screen like Psycho Goreman. I see it going the same way in Japan. The big screen releases will be CGI, but there will be smaller niche products where the use of practical effects and suitmation is a selling point. Yeah, we'll get not great stuff like the Raiga vs Ohga film, but we'll get gems like Howl from Beyond the Fog too.

And ultimately - does it matter? Suit or CGI, as long as the film is good as a kaiju picture like Shin or Howl then how the effects are done matter little to the actual enjoyment of the film. We all just want to be entertained right?
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Denis »

Vakanai wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:42 pm I think suitmation is going to be relegated to things like commercials, collaborations, smaller projects like short films or those live shows, while their theatrical films, rides, and bigger projects in general (even their anime, as much as I'd like a 2D Godzilla...) will all use CGI to bring the monsters to life - with the possibility of some measure of practical effects to enhance the CG work like what the Jurassic Park/World films do sometimes.

Ultimately, I'm okay with this development. Not that I have anything against suitmation of course, I mean I'm a kaiju fan - but their CGI looks good, I thought Shin was amazingly well done in that department (never mind that it's the best Godzilla movie of this century, Japanese or American) whether it was film Shin, ride Shin (vs NGE), or short film Shin (a couple museum videos and the like). And their CGI presumably has only improved to some extent in the half decade since, and their most recent ride has a Godzilla design that many of us would love to see get used in one of their theatrical movies it looks so good. And beyond that, while Toho may not use suitmation anymore, it's not dead. Ultraman and pretty much all other television kaiju shows can't afford that kind of CGI for a tv/streaming show so they'll still use suits. Indie kaiju films and short films can't afford good CGI so we'll still get things like Howl from Beyond the Fog or the upcoming Brush of the God.

While Toho will probably go all in on CGI, most especially for their theatrical releases, and honestly they probably should (they also have to compete with Chinese and South Korean productions more, and those countries use CGI), there's still going to be enough suitmation elsewhere this decade to provide a healthy balance of variety. I mean look at films in the Western world now - we only get CGI spectacles on the big screen, but there's a rise in practical effects movies intended for the small screen like Psycho Goreman. I see it going the same way in Japan. The big screen releases will be CGI, but there will be smaller niche products where the use of practical effects and suitmation is a selling point. Yeah, we'll get not great stuff like the Raiga vs Ohga film, but we'll get gems like Howl from Beyond the Fog too.

And ultimately - does it matter? Suit or CGI, as long as the film is good as a kaiju picture like Shin or Howl then how the effects are done matter little to the actual enjoyment of the film. We all just want to be entertained right?
Worth mentioning we’re getting a Godzilla short film titled GvG2, a sequel to Gemstone’s GvG, and it appears to be CGI. So if anything, we will probably see back and forth with short films.

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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by JessIAm »

What are motion control suits considered in this poll? It's not a suit in the traditional sense, since it isn't a costume.

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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

Regarding "enhancement" with CGI, I watched IT: Chapter 2 last night, and I was actually taken out of the movie a lot when there was a physical prop that was juiced with computer animation. Rarely does taking a passable physical prop and slapping a layer of CG on top of it really make it any more convincing imo.
The other problem is that practical FX don't tend to have the same time or skill put behind them in most cases because they're expected to be enhanced.
I just think one or the other tends to look better than attempting to merge them most times. But a kaiju might be a different than say, the Leper.
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Lesko »

I think they will some time. Shin definitely showed us they are willing to switch to CGI. I hope they actually use a mix to achieve the best appearance for what works on any given situation. Maybe one scene would be better in a suit and perhaps another would be CGI. Maybe another would be half and half. It seems CGI is now the primary method Toho likes to use but similar to how stop motion and animatronics are still used every now and then I wouldn't completely rule out a suit they might reserve for on rare use.

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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Jetty_Jags »

I personally don't consider motion capture a real successor of suitmation, if anything its the modern day equivalent of rotoscoping. I mean it is a successor in the sense that it is taking over what used to be suitmation, but I don't see it as an evolution of the artform.
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by Rando Yaguchi »

Lesko wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:04 amI hope they actually use a mix to achieve the best appearance for what works on any given situation.
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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by MegaGoji »

For the next Toho G movie they just mix practical effects with CGI which could make it pretty realistic.

For example a Godzilla suit can be used for the simple attacks and the CGI can be used for more complex attacks and movement that can't be done with practical effects.
Last edited by MegaGoji on Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Will Toho use suits?

Post by HillyHulk »

I think it could be done in a way that keeps suits while enhancing them with CG. It wouldn't be the same, but I think that suits can come back if a procedure can be found.
Last edited by HillyHulk on Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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