Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

For the discussion of Toho produced and distributed films or shows released before 1980.
Post Reply
User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by eabaker »

mikelcho wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:15 pm
eabaker wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:47 pm
mikelcho wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:50 pm The three fictional characters that have made the most films are, in order:

*Sherlock Holmes
*Count Dracula
*the Frankenstein Monster
Apparently this is not true if we count Santa Claus as a fictional character (independent of the real Saint Nicholas), in which case he easily takes the top spot.
These three characters I've listed have film lists that each number in the triple digits - and that's just theatrical films; that doesn't include TV series, made-for-TV films, TV specials, novels, short story collections, short story anthologies, children's books, comic book series, etc. I don't think the actual number of Santa Claus's theatrical films goes that high, to tell you the truth.

In fact, it's been said that more has been written about Sherlock Holmes than about any other subject in literary history except William Shakespeare and the Bible.
Santa Claus has apparently appeared in over 800 films.

Back to Frankenstein vs. Baragon, it is definitely one of my favorite Honda kaiju films, and I would rank it third among Toho's non-Godzilla kaiju flicks (following Mothra and Rodan). I love the atmosphere, the sense of tragedy and doom that pervades the whole thing; and I love its visual texture, its dour color pallet.
Last edited by eabaker on Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
Spuro
Keizer
Posts: 9534
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: Monster Island

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by Spuro »

eabaker wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:29 pm I love the atmosphere, the sense of tragedy and doom that pervades the whole thing; and I love its visual texture, its dour color pallet.
Let’s not forget its amazing sense of humor. The scene where Frankenstein tries to catch a bird by throwing a tree at it — cut to the tree landing on a house and scaring the residents, is one of my favorites in Tsuburaya’s career.
eabaker wrote: You can't parse duende.
Breakdown wrote: HP Lovecraft's cat should be the ultimate villain of the MonsterVerse.

User avatar
Major sssspielberg!
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2226
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:48 am

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

Spuro wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:23 am
eabaker wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:29 pm I love the atmosphere, the sense of tragedy and doom that pervades the whole thing; and I love its visual texture, its dour color pallet.
Let’s not forget its amazing sense of humor. The scene where Frankenstein tries to catch a bird by throwing a tree at it — cut to the tree landing on a house and scaring the residents, is one of my favorites in Tsuburaya’s career.
Just watched this last night, there's a few shots that are clearly Tsuburaya just kinda trolling.
The horse, the bit with the tree, Baragon having chicken feathers raining from his mouth. Never enough to rip you out of the movie but enough to get a lil giggle in.
Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:44 am I love Final Wars. I praise Final Wars. Simple as.

User avatar
SoggyNoodles2016
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6133
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 7:37 am
Location: My parents' basement

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by SoggyNoodles2016 »

Major sssspielberg! wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:49 pm
Spuro wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:23 am
eabaker wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:29 pm I love the atmosphere, the sense of tragedy and doom that pervades the whole thing; and I love its visual texture, its dour color pallet.
Let’s not forget its amazing sense of humor. The scene where Frankenstein tries to catch a bird by throwing a tree at it — cut to the tree landing on a house and scaring the residents, is one of my favorites in Tsuburaya’s career.
Just watched this last night, there's a few shots that are clearly Tsuburaya just kinda trolling.
The horse, the bit with the tree, Baragon having chicken feathers raining from his mouth. Never enough to rip you out of the movie but enough to get a lil giggle in.
My favorite quote from Tsuburya is him saying he made the horse puppet because it wouldn't be as funny if it was a real horse.

Both because it's just such a funny thought and it unintentionally summarizes the kaiju genre: sure, it might not look real or make too much sense but the way we're doing it really hits the emotional beats we need better
Image

RIP Evan.

User avatar
Terasawa
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by Terasawa »

This matte painting from FCTW was posted in r/japanpics (typically a photography sub) today. It reminded me of how crucial matte paintings --especially of non-natural settings-- are to the look of these movies. Because they're not quite photorealistic, they seem to imply a setting that's just slightly removed from reality, arguably perfect for sci-fi fantasies set in contemporary times.

Resized Image
寺沢. He/him/his, etc.

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 14260
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

Wow, I don't know why but I think I just always assumed that was a real photo, not a matte painting. I wonder how many of those I've missed over the years.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

Online
User avatar
Voyager
Keizer
Posts: 7834
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Location: On a boat

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by Voyager »

I always thought the matte paintings looked so good, and it’s part of the aesthetic of the Showa films.
Image
For Emperor and Empire!

mikelcho
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2594
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:23 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by mikelcho »

eabaker wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:29 pm
mikelcho wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:15 pm
eabaker wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:47 pm

Apparently this is not true if we count Santa Claus as a fictional character (independent of the real Saint Nicholas), in which case he easily takes the top spot.
These three characters I've listed have film lists that each number in the triple digits - and that's just theatrical films; that doesn't include TV series, made-for-TV films, TV specials, novels, short story collections, short story anthologies, children's books, comic book series, etc. I don't think the actual number of Santa Claus's theatrical films goes that high, to tell you the truth.

In fact, it's been said that more has been written about Sherlock Holmes than about any other subject in literary history except William Shakespeare and the Bible.
Santa Claus has apparently appeared in over 800 films.

Back to Frankenstein vs. Baragon, it is definitely one of my favorite Honda kaiju films, and I would rank it third among Toho's non-Godzilla kaiju flicks (following Mothra and Rodan). I love the atmosphere, the sense of tragedy and doom that pervades the whole thing; and I love its visual texture, its dour color pallet.
Question about Santa Claus...when you said that he appeared in over 800 films, are we talking about theatrical films only, or theatrical films and the other categories I've mentioned combined?

For the record, Holmes and Dracula were each in over 200 theatrical films and the Monster was in (I think) over 100.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: the numbers for each of the three characters are number of films worldwide, not just in the U.S. and U.K.
Last edited by mikelcho on Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
JAGzilla
Sazer
Posts: 11819
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by JAGzilla »

If you told me that painting was a photograph, I wouldn't argue with you.
"Stop wars and no more accidents. I guess that's all I can ask." -Akio

User avatar
Terasawa
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by Terasawa »

Well, to be fair, part of it is a photograph (there are people moving along the road next to the river), but a good deal of it is a painting. The central focal point is the building which has since become the Hiroshima Peace Memorial*, so a painting (or miniature) would have been necessary to restore it to its pre-bomb appearance.

This site has a 1960 panorama from roughly the same angle, so you can see approximately how much was modified by the matte artist.

*...which serves doubly as an establishing shot and as foreshadowing of the bomb.
寺沢. He/him/his, etc.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by LegendZilla »

Is anyone aware that this film's original draft had Frankenstein going solo and not having an obligatory fight with another kaiju? Toho ultimately decided that the script was a little too grim and depressing, which is why they added Baragon. I am genuinely curious as to how things would've turned out had they gone with Plan A.

If Toho were to make another Frankenstein film in the Reiwa era, They should seriously consider doing such a route.

Legion1979
Justiriser
Posts: 15857
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by Legion1979 »

Where'd you hear this? Everything I've read indicates this movie was derived from an idea that pitted Frankenstein against Godzilla, but they eventually took Godzilla out and replaced him with Baragon. I think it was always the intent to have a second monster in the movie.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by LegendZilla »

Legion1979 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:29 pm Where'd you hear this? Everything I've read indicates this movie was derived from an idea that pitted Frankenstein against Godzilla, but they eventually took Godzilla out and replaced him with Baragon. I think it was always the intent to have a second monster in the movie.
I think I read it on Wikipedia many years ago.
Last edited by LegendZilla on Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 14260
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

You may be mixing up a few movies:

Originally Willis O’Brien wanted to make a follow up to King Kong titled “King Kong vs The Prometheus”

https://wikizilla.org/wiki/King_Kong_vs._Prometheus

John Beck, sold the rights to Kong to Toho and it got reworked into KKVG. Later on, Kong was considered for EHOTD, but it got changed into Godzilla. In addition to that, there were many film ideas, such as Godzilla vs Frankenstein and Frankenstein vs the Human Vapor.

You may be thinking of the H-man, or some other singular Toho horror films. Frankensteins movie would always be versus another monster.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

edgaguirus
Keizer
Posts: 8563
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by edgaguirus »

And the majority of the 60s kaiju films had some form of kaiju combat.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by LegendZilla »

LSD Jellyfish wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:06 am You may be mixing up a few movies:

Originally Willis O’Brien wanted to make a follow up to King Kong titled “King Kong vs The Prometheus”

https://wikizilla.org/wiki/King_Kong_vs._Prometheus

John Beck, sold the rights to Kong to Toho and it got reworked into KKVG. Later on, Kong was considered for EHOTD, but it got changed into Godzilla. In addition to that, there were many film ideas, such as Godzilla vs Frankenstein and Frankenstein vs the Human Vapor.

You may be thinking of the H-man, or some other singular Toho horror films. Frankensteins movie would always be versus another monster.
Would you be opposed to Toho doing another Frankenstein film one day?

edgaguirus
Keizer
Posts: 8563
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by edgaguirus »

I would like to see another take on Frank. Most dinosaurian and animal-based kaiju can't reach the audience the same way that Frank or Sanda can. They can be more expressive, and the people identify more with a character that looks more like them.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him.

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 14260
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

edgaguirus wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:07 pm I would like to see another take on Frank. Most dinosaurian and animal-based kaiju can't reach the audience the same way that Frank or Sanda can. They can be more expressive, and the people identify more with a character that looks more like them.
I've always liked the dynamic of the idea of Godzilla vs. Frankenstein, or that Godzilla vs. M concept. I think that the idea of a monstrous man, but not super-hero (like Ultraman), fighting Godzilla has always been really neat. Shame they never did a Sanda and Gaira vs. Godzilla, but it's clear that ROE did that well.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

Online
User avatar
Voyager
Keizer
Posts: 7834
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Location: On a boat

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by Voyager »

A 62/64 Style Godzilla fighting Frank or another giant monster-man (not a hero) has always been my dream. That’s why I was so interested in Godzilla vs The Wolfman.
Image
For Emperor and Empire!

edgaguirus
Keizer
Posts: 8563
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

Post by edgaguirus »

We'd all like to that one. Most of Godzilla's enemies are dinosaurs, aliens, robots, or a big bug. A giant human or man like kaiju would give us something different.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him.

Post Reply