Talkback: King Kong vs. Godzilla (1962)

[Terasawa]

I am guessing that Godzilla coming out of ice whereas he got trapped in ice in the last movie is a coincidence. Knowing the nature of the Showa era, continuity between films was a trivial factor.

I think the disinterest in strict continuity is why it's an iceberg rather than encasement on an island, but I imagine they expected a portion of the audience to at least remember "Godzilla trapped in ice."

Back then audiences would not have cared as much as they do now. If audiences didn’t care, then studios didn’t either.

Rather than sheer apathy, I think it's just far more likely that Shinichi Sekizawa didn't expect the audience to remember precise details about a movie that had been released more than seven years earlier.

[SpiderZilla]

I think the disinterest in strict continuity is why it's an iceberg rather than encasement on an island, but I imagine they expected a portion of the audience to at least remember "Godzilla trapped in ice."

It seemed like continuity to me. I always presumed that the glacier in which Godzilla was encased had slid down the island slope over time until it reached the shore and floated out to sea.

[edgaguirus]

That's one way to look at it. Some would have remembered GRA's climax, but it wouldn't have mattered to most whether it was an iceberg or island as long as it led to Godzilla back in action.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I've never noticed the "iceberg" versus "icy mountain" discreprency until others pointed it out. Even still, it's not such a stretch to imagine that the section that Godzilla remained frozen in simply fell from off the mountain and floated away into the ocean. It's less of an issue when the film states that the Bering Sea has heated up, so it's likely Godzilla's own body over a peroid of time caused the ice to melt away and drift.

We can also assume why this was done artistically: the whole section with the Seahawk in the Japanese cut works very well. It's one of the first cases of genuine build up to Godzilla's arrival, it's the first instance of Godzilla taking on the American military and submarines. It's implied and stated that the island that Godzilla was trapped in was in Russian/disputed terrirtory. It would be weird for a United States Submarine to surface there, without adding a very distracting cold-war element to the film that has no other significance in the film. I think the iceberg "controversy" is a great example of how pigeonholing/worrying about continuity too much can often detract from the film.

Unless I'm forgetting something, not counting the American cut of Godzilla King of the Monsters (1955), I think King Kong vs. Godzilla is also the first Godzilla film to feature Americans. Taking place nearly 20 years after the end of the Pacific War, and compared to the very Japan-Centric narratives of both the original Godzilla (1954), Godzilla Raids Again (1955), King Kong Vs. Godzilla is the first Godzilla film to start to feel more "international", which does show a shift in attitudes towards the United States. Thinking about it further, even Mothra (1961), while featuring non-Japanese people, turns them into the fictionalized "Roscilians", instead of Americans or Russians. The Mysterians, Battle in Outer Space, and Gorath do predate this though, and has some scenes involving the UN, but I find KKVG an interesting turning point and reflective of the times. In the same year as KKVG, Atragon was released in Japan, which has very clear "revenge and grudges for imperial Japan isn't productive approach". It's fitting that King Kong vs. Godzilla a collaboration, even if somewhat notoriously sketchy, between American Studios and Japanese Studios, featuring icons of respective cinematic legacies, reflects all this.

[LegendZilla]

This film is no doubt the most polarizing entry within the entire classic era of Godzilla films. Even the most die-hard Tsuburaya fanatics have mixed feelings on this one.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Even the most die-hard Tsuburaya fanatics have mixed feelings on this one.

Huh?

I've always gotten the impression that the polarization of this film comes from the Americanized release, which critically cuts a lot of really important moments and ruins a lot of the tension (see the entire removal of the Fujita/Godzilla boat missing plot, music changes, character motivation changes, and added Americanized scenes that detract from the narrative). Most people (and you can see examples of this in the thread), really like the Japanese version after seeing it. Even the detractors pretty much speak highly how this was one of their favorites as a kid.

[LegendZilla]

Even the most die-hard Tsuburaya fanatics have mixed feelings on this one.

Huh?

I've always gotten the impression that the polarization of this film comes from the Americanized release, which critically cuts a lot of really important moments and ruins a lot of the tension (see the entire removal of the Fujita/Godzilla boat missing plot, music changes, character motivation changes, and added Americanized scenes that detract from the narrative). Most people (and you can see examples of this in the thread), really like the Japanese version after seeing it. Even the detractors pretty much speak highly how this was one of their favorites as a kid.

The Japanese version was intentionally more comedic than previous Kaiju films and most of it got lost in translation.

[LSD Jellyfish]

The Japanese version was intentionally more comedic than previous Kaiju films and most of it got lost in translation.

Yes, but just because it has a comedic tone doesn't mean it is devoid of tension.

This is beating a dead horse, but the Japanese cut smartly has two narratives, with different tones, that clash together near the midway point. Kong's narrative is filled with humor, self-awareness, and very unsubtle jabs at capitilism and exploitation. Godzilla's narrative is somber, serious, and filled with dread. The Japanese cut takes longer to get to Godzilla, building him effectively and has a very critical subplot about Fujita possibly being killed by Godzilla which grounds the impact that Godzilla has on real people. The train scene is also very tense, and because of how the Japanese cut is edited, Godzilla endures a lot more over a longer peroid of time. Godzilla, at this point, is consistent with how he is in 1954, GRA, and subsequent entry Mothra vs. Godzilla. It's Kong, and his narratives that balance it out.

While the American release tones down the comedy, it also tones down the tension, both through editing/altering the placement of scenes and music, but also by having inserted American scenes which explain Godzilla, Kong, and what is at stake.

[Terasawa]

Polarizing in what way and to whom? Who do you mean by "Tsuburaya fanatics?" I don't understand, either.

[eabaker]

There has always been a segment of the fandom that turned their noses up at this movie because of the comedic tone of the Japanese cut and the stilted nature of the American cut, but "most polarizing of the classic era" is tough to quantify. I feel like the same claim could easily be made about Hedorah and maybe even GRA. It is certainly one of the more polarizing Showa entries, though; many of its fans consider it among the best in the series, while many of its detractors consider it among the worst.

[MaxRebo320]

Polarizing among the more casual/garden variety fans (the "hoo would win" types), sure. But I feel most seasoned fans, and especially "Tsuburaya fanatics" generally consider this to be one of the stronger entries.

[canofhumdingers]

I didn’t realize this was released in August back in 1962. It’s fitting then that I watched it on august 12 this year! I’m working my way thru the entire Toho Godzilla series original Japanese cuts. Not the first time I’ve done it but it’s been a few years and I have a new home theater to enjoy.

It really struck me just how witty the writing is in the Japanese cut this time through. It really is quite funny and intelligently so. I laughed out loud several times at the dialogue. As much as I appreciate the US cut (especially now seeing how much my kids love it), it really is a shame the dub effectively neuters the clever satire. And of course Ifukube’s score is superb and one has to wonder what on earth they were thinking replacing it!

But even so, the us cut (which I watched a few weeks ago - it was the first movie my kids requested to watch on the projector!) is still a rollicking good monster film.

[Legion1979]

Regarding the score, my guess is they screwed around so much with the movie and edited it so aggressively that they couldn't salvage the score. Probably the exact same reason (though to a lesser extent) Ghidrah's score suffered so badly.

[LegendZilla]

There has always been a segment of the fandom that turned their noses up at this movie because of the comedic tone of the Japanese cut and the stilted nature of the American cut, but "most polarizing of the classic era" is tough to quantify. I feel like the same claim could easily be made about Hedorah and maybe even GRA. It is certainly one of the more polarizing Showa entries, though; many of its fans consider it among the best in the series, while many of its detractors consider it among the worst.

By “classic era” I mean the time when Eiji Tsuburaya was alive. At least GRA is mostly agreed by all to be sub-par.

[Legion1979]

There has always been a segment of the fandom that turned their noses up at this movie because of the comedic tone of the Japanese cut and the stilted nature of the American cut, but "most polarizing of the classic era" is tough to quantify. I feel like the same claim could easily be made about Hedorah and maybe even GRA. It is certainly one of the more polarizing Showa entries, though; many of its fans consider it among the best in the series, while many of its detractors consider it among the worst.

By “classic era” I mean the time when Eiji Tsuburaya was alive. At least GRA is mostly agreed by all to be sub-par.

Then specify that. For most people "classic Toho" usually goes all the way back to the first Godzilla film.

[eabaker]

There has always been a segment of the fandom that turned their noses up at this movie because of the comedic tone of the Japanese cut and the stilted nature of the American cut, but "most polarizing of the classic era" is tough to quantify. I feel like the same claim could easily be made about Hedorah and maybe even GRA. It is certainly one of the more polarizing Showa entries, though; many of its fans consider it among the best in the series, while many of its detractors consider it among the worst.

By “classic era” I mean the time when Eiji Tsuburaya was alive. At least GRA is mostly agreed by all to be sub-par.

I actually didn't mean GRA, I meant AMA!

[edgaguirus]

Actually, AMA may be the most polarizing of this "classic era". AMA came out in 1969, and Tsuburaya passed on in 1970. KK vs G may be polarizing for the changes made to the American cut, but I'm sure whatever cut of AMA you see, it would be more divisive within the fanhood.

I've never seen the Japanese version of KK vs G, but I will when I'm able. I am curious as to what it's like.

[JAGzilla]

I wouldn't say AMA is all that polarizing, really. Its fanbase is a small, out of the way minority, while the fandom at large write it off without a second thought.

[eabaker]

Regardless of the numbers, the opinions on it tend to be in polar opposition.

[Voyager]

Regardless of the numbers, the opinions on it tend to be in polar opposition.

So… do people say AMA is the greatest movie in the franchise?