Kong (Legendary) vs Legion

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Inferno Rodan
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Re: Kong (Legendary) vs Legion

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Zasraniec wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:47 pm Yeah my English isn't perfect, but I am willing to bet bet my English is better than your (insert secondary language here)
Possibly, but that has no relevance here. Stop trying to pull logical fallacies. All I was doing was correcting you for your own benefit, because people often confuse silicon and silicone in common speech.
I guess you can think Gamera is a tactical failure if you want but if you ask me Kaneko did what he could with what he had to work with. The Heisei Gamera movies had less budget than the Heisei Godzilla movies and arguably are better.
Budget and film quality have no bearing whatsoever on the intelligence of a kaiju, so I don't see why you'd bother bringing this up. I'm pretty sure no one would argue against the Heisei Gamera movies being higher quality than the Heisei Godzilla movies. It's a pretty obvious fact.
Anyway since most kaiju are of Earth and based off of carbon what matters is the difference between the two which was my point. Especially if the silicon creature doesn't have traditional organs or even blood. If Legion was as brittle as you are trying to make her out to be it wouldn't have taken multiple handgun shots to finally draw gas blood through the worker Legion, which mind you was fired on a weaker joint area.
Every single shot fired into the Soldier Legion penetrated it, and they absolutely were not aimed at the joints. There's also the scene where a surgical saw easily cut through its shell, which was again in the middle of a solid piece of it and not anywhere near a joint.
Gamera would also have shattered her in a few blows.
Ah, but step back and think about that statement for a moment. How many times did Gamera actually land blows on Legion throughout their battles? The only times he did, damage was inflicted. He tore off her horns, and the Mana beam vaporized her. Gamera's problem was landing blows on Legion in the first place, not her shrugging off the blows he did land.
Contrast that with Kong who is your typical carbon based lifeform. As shown in his fight with Godzilla, one good hit can take him out of the fight if he gets hit in a vulnerable spot like a shoulder joint or his ribs. Godzilla pretty much acted out of character most of the fight just to extend the fight for our enjoyment by not beating Kong too fast.
This is just patently false. Godzilla was more vicious in GvK than he's ever been.
Legion does not have this weakness.
No, Legion has the far greater weakness of being unable to actually hit anything in the first place.
While this match sets it up so Legion's ranged power is basically negated so Kong get's the superior attack power in this fight, he is at a disadvantage in the durability area. If we rolled dice for multiple takes of this match Kong would might win some of them as this is close but I am still siding with the minority that I think Legion's durability gives a slight edge here.
You keep citing Legion's durability. I've already explained why this is false: the only attacks she withstood were things that are considered bare minimum for a kaiju to not be considered made of tissue paper.
Gamera isn't as durable as Godzilla except for perhaps his shell. Since Legion has the melee attack power to go through that it certainly is going to go through Kong. If he just gets hit in a non vital area he could probably shrug it off and keep cleaving although nothing is really stopping Legion from just stabbing him again. I think the only real damage Kong could do is when the axe is charged. Otherwise he's going to get stabbed. Fatally. Kong may have the axe but Legion has the pikes.
Gamera's shell has objectively shown to be less durable than concrete: in G3, Iris' arm spear easily penetrated his shell with no resistance, both entering and exiting. Later on, the same spear struggled to bury itself in a concrete wall when pinning Gamera's hand to it.

Even ignoring that and going with the rather silly assumption Legion's limbs would indeed be immediately lethal to Kong, you're acting like Kong is just gonna stand there and let himself get stabbed like Gamera did. This goes against everything we saw of him in the movie. Kong is a very agile kaiju that is very adept at dodging, blocking, parrying, and generally avoiding taking damage. And that was against opponents far faster and more physically capable than Legion.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

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Zasraniec
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Re: Kong (Legendary) vs Legion

Post by Zasraniec »

[quote]Possibly, but that has no relevance here. Stop trying to pull logical fallacies. All I was doing was correcting you for your own benefit, because people often confuse silicon and silicone in common speech.[/quote]
Except it does. I make mistakes sometimes. A bit more than a native would but I like to think my English is still pretty good. I admit I made a mistake. I thought those words were basically the same thing. If anything trying to say Gamera was stupid is a logical fallacy because it would make the mana sacrifice pointless. Gamera isn't even in this fight anyway so I don't really see the point in talking about it much.
[quote]Budget and film quality have no bearing whatsoever on the intelligence of a kaiju, so I don't see why you'd bother bringing this up. I'm pretty sure no one would argue against the Heisei Gamera movies being higher quality than the Heisei Godzilla movies. It's a pretty obvious fact.[/quote]
Well when you make debatable claims about a kaiju's intelligence you have to think whether that was actually intended or if that is what the director had to work with. Gamera's intelligence has little bearing on this fight anyway. I wouldn't really say Gamera or Legion outsmarted the other. I think it is safe to say that Kong is smarter than Legion, but like Godzilla, it won't mean he will win. I would say Legion is fairly clever and showed strategy like delaying Gamera just long enough for the flower to go off. While technically debatable that is a very timely coincidence and I think it definitely suggests that was Legion's plan for that current fight. Legion also seemed more aggressive during the Flower fight while being more sadistic in the second fight. So while Kong is smarter it is not like he is going to defeat Legion through his brain. The only great asset of Kong's intelligence in this fight is the axe because without that axe he is fodder.
[quote]Every single shot fired into the Soldier Legion penetrated it, and they absolutely were not aimed at the joints. There's also the scene where a surgical saw easily cut through its shell, which was again in the middle of a solid piece of it and not anywhere near a joint.[/quote]
Cmon watch that scene again! The soldier walks up to the Legion, targets the less armored neck joint and blasts it. He then appears to shoot it in the face but notice the only areas leaking gas blood are his weakened joints instead of the front. That's just a soldier too! I think it is safe to say it is likely the Queen is even more durable which is backed up by the fact we never saw her bleed gas.
[quote]Ah, but step back and think about that statement for a moment. How many times did Gamera actually land blows on Legion throughout their battles? The only times he did, damage was inflicted. He tore off her horns, and the Mana beam vaporized her. Gamera's problem was landing blows on Legion in the first place, not her shrugging off the blows he did land.[/quote]
I see your point here. However this looks to me like this is explained easily by Legion's strength who just plain overpowered Gamera which is why he couldn't get many hits in. Based on that I think she'd overpower Kong just as easily in a battle of pure strength. Back to Kong's axe which is his only hope against a kaiju like this. If Legion disarms him like Godzilla did and it is just physical strength against physical strength Kong loses. Is Legion smart enough to do that? No way to say for sure but I am going to say yes given what she did with the Flower fight. Gamera had no weapon like an axe to even the odds in physical strength. I also noticed Legion did not bleed when her horn got dismembered. So while it definitely did some damage I don't think it was as lethal as you are making it out to be. Especially since she got a new attack from that. That mana beam was a super weapon and she even managed to survive that for a few seconds! I think that is pretty significant!
[quote]This is just patently false. Godzilla was more vicious in GvK than he's ever been.[/quote]
Oh cmon! You can't say something like that is false when it is an opinion! My opinion is Legion will be the general victor here. I never said that was a fact! Just like you thinking Kong takes this is also your opinion.
[quote]You keep citing Legion's durability. I've already explained why this is false: the only attacks she withstood were things that are considered bare minimum for a kaiju to not be considered made of tissue paper.[/quote]
Yes why I think Legion's durability is the center of this fight I already said but to say it briefly seeing her withstand several seconds of an insanely powerful weapon that had dire consequences along with seeing the soldiers take high amounts of punishment is why I believe this. We have to at the very least agree it is more than Kong's. Kong is pretty frail for a kaiju in the same universe as Godzilla. If Godzilla slashing his chest hurt him as bad as it did I think impalements from an alien creature can be fatal.
[quote]Gamera's shell has objectively shown to be less durable than concrete: in G3, Iris' arm spear easily penetrated his shell with no resistance, both entering and exiting. Later on, the same spear struggled to bury itself in a concrete wall when pinning Gamera's hand to it.

Even ignoring that and going with the rather silly assumption Legion's limbs would indeed be immediately lethal to Kong, you're acting like Kong is just gonna stand there and let himself get stabbed like Gamera did. This goes against everything we saw of him in the movie. Kong is a very agile kaiju that is very adept at dodging, blocking, parrying, and generally avoiding taking damage. And that was against opponents far faster and more physically capable than Legion.[/quote]
Gamera's shell could take Gyaos sonic beams and resist attacks that do more damage if not hit on his shell. That alone is more than Kong. If Kong got hit by the same artillery Gamera has been hit with he'd most likely be dead. You basically admitted why I think Legion would beat Kong. Kong as to be PERFECT and not get hit. He has to make zero mistakes or he will probably die. Legion will be able to take some axe hits. Kong won't be able to take multiple stabs if he gets hit in vital areas. See Kong is of Earth. He has been shown to get tired and worn down from injuries. Legion does not because she is totally alien. Kong needs to get in close for his axe to be effective. In range of Legion's spiky limbs. Like Kong I doubt Legion is gonna wanna stand still too. Kong isn't like the Matrix. His dodges aren't guaranteed and very overstated if you ask me. He failed to dodge Godzilla's beam once and failed to avoid the one sided smackdown Godzilla gave him. Legion on the other hand was able to afford losing some limbs with only the giant horn seeming to do damage when dismembered. How many limbs do you think Kong could afford to lose in a fight? That's all it takes for Kong to lose. One good strike.

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