Neon Genesis Evangelion

For the discussion of non-Toho monster media, tokusatsu franchises, and also for mixed discussion of Toho and non-Toho kaiju media.
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Bret
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Bret » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:37 pm

Plexton wrote:Yeah, but it's kind of become more of a tradition, if you know what I mean. :g2k: I pretty much just tolerate it at the best of times, but I'm so not interested if a writer has to throw breasts in my face to keep my attention.

Thinking back, I don't know how I made it through Gurren Lagann.


Because Gurren lagaan is pure awesome :) ?
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Plexton » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:42 pm

Yes, this cannot be denied. You can't help but love a series which features two galaxy-sized robots throwing galaxies around like shuriken; quite possibly the most ridiculously glorious thing I have ever seen. 8-)

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Legionmaster » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:56 pm

Jomei wrote:But it's not like they're rushing out crap films to make a quick buck off an undiscriminating fan base.

Yeah, that's Toho's shtick! :P
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Plexton » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:02 pm

SF Debris, one of my favourite Internet reviewers, gave his thoughts on Evangelion: 1.0 You Are (Not) Alone, from the perspective of a newcomer to the series. I think he makes a number of valid points, both good and bad (the review itself is also quite entertaining):

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-re ... -1-6304453

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Terrier » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:04 pm

Something I felt with the original anime and the 'The End...' movie is that they didn't "adhere" to some kind of expected narrative and resolution. The events felt to me like they could happen in real life (Needless to say, if all the fantastical stuff was possible), not really "happy" or "sad" or definitive or conclusive, but a bunch of events that happened and led to an uncertain resolution. Characters made mistakes, died, ended up hating each other, lots of misunderstandings, things that didn't have to happen but happened, and it ended up being about them trying to make something out of it. And I mean it as a good thing; something refreshing and thought provoking.

The 2.0 movie felt like a happier alternative, leading towards something more conclusive. The characters get to know each other better, they don't make the same mistakes, some of them are even saved... but in a way that reminded me of 'When They Cry' (Higurashi no Naku Koro ni), like if the characters are the originals reincarnated (At least Kaworu's line during the scenne after the credits may imply this). But who knows, the following movies may be more skreeonked up than anything before, but overall I think they are trying to be an earned resolution to the franchise after the audience went through everything that came before.

What irks me is when people just take the newest movies and just ditch what came before, because "The new ones are more awesome" or "Shinji is not whiny anymore" and bullshit... just no. It may be good to have the newer movies, they may contribute to the mythos, but without the original series (And movie), they are nothing, or just another anime.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Grignr » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:15 pm

Jomei wrote:
Plexton wrote:Well, I have to say that the extra shots of nude Rei in the first film have me worried about the second. Is there anything overly gratuitous?


Fan-service is a Gainax tradition. Don't let it dissuade you.

Which fanservice mostly ruins the integrity of a series, even when it is milked to death.

If you think the EoE film is trippy? Hah!

Try watching Revolutionary Girl Utena and come back to me.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Bret » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:53 pm

Grignr wrote:
Jomei wrote:
Plexton wrote:Well, I have to say that the extra shots of nude Rei in the first film have me worried about the second. Is there anything overly gratuitous?


Fan-service is a Gainax tradition. Don't let it dissuade you.

Which fanservice mostly ruins the integrity of a series, even when it is milked to death.

If you think the EoE film is trippy? Hah!

Try watching Revolutionary Girl Utena and come back to me.


I watched Revolutionary Girl utena up until the end of the first arc than lost interest. Does it get better after that or would it be better just to forget about it and move on?
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Grignr » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:56 pm

Bret wrote:
I watched Revolutionary Girl utena up until the end of the first arc than lost interest. Does it get better after that or would it be better just to forget about it and move on?

It gets much better and a lot more weird with each episode.

The movie is just batshit insane...but skreeonking loved it.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Rody » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:21 pm

I just watched the DEATH recap of the series, but am having trouble finding REBIRTH. Should I just skip it & go to END OF EVANGELION?

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Grignr » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:24 pm

Just skip it and watch EoE.

Can guarantee that it'll be disappointing, but don't take my word for it cuz folks here will say otherwise. :maybe


Jomei wrote: This?

lol no thanks

Aw, one preview can't hurt.

And besides, more than half the members here love MLP, so what difference does it make?
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Terrier » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:37 pm

"Death" is just the first minutes of "The End of Evangelion", so yeah, just go ahead and watch the movie.

While it left me confused the first time, now I think it's a satisfying conclusion, and it shows how Instrumentallity really looks like (Well, sorta, almost, this is just one scenario...).

Take in mind that it's divided in two parts, 25' and 26', as alternatives to the final episodes of the anime, the credits take place during the middle of the movie, at least the version I saw.



Edit: Almost forgot, JesuOtaku and Oancitizen from 'That Guy With the Glasses' did a review of 'Revolutionary Girl Utena'. Haven't seen it, but the combination seems perfect: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videol ... girl-utena

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Rody » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:28 pm

Alright, I watched End of Evangelion. That cleared things up a little bit, but once Rei transformed it got bizarre again. The climax left me scratching my head.

...And wow, was this movie dark - and depressing - and disturbing. Needless to say, I'm still not satisfied.

*edit*: I've been thinking about EoE, and decided I should elaborate on some of the factors that made me dislike it.

First of all, as I mentioned above, this film was much darker than I expected. When I began watching the show, I braced myself for a series that would be very grim & violent. I was surprised to discover, however, that the series was not as heavy-handed as I expected. EoE was closer to what I originally imagined of the show, But I was no longer expecting that when I saw EoE, so I was taken aback by how gritty and sad the movie was.

Second of all, after finishing the show, I was hoping that EoE would offer a more clear explanation & resolution. I didn't get that. Once Instrumentality started, I started to get confused again. I couldn't make heads or tails out of the final third of the film.

The third issue ties in with the previous two, but specifically, I was disappointing with how a few of the characters were handled. I was sorry to see Misato die, but I wasn't surprised by it. What did catch me off guard was:
"That was a grown-up kiss. We'll do the rest when you come back."
SERIOUSLY?! She's twice as old as Shinji! You could get arrested for that in the states!
More importantly, though, this isn't the kind of relationship I saw between the two. In the show, the dynamics between Misato and Shinji were, IMO, akin to that of a mother & son, or a big sister & little brother; and I liked that. Throwing in a romantic angle felt random and unnecessary to me. My only guess is that the writers were trying to further complicate Shinji's mental state, but wasn't he already messed up enough?
Speaking of which, Shinji's breakdown was a little hard for me to grasp. Perhaps I was still getting over my frustration from the Kaworu episode, but Shinji seemed to lose it rather suddenly and quickly.
Asuka was alright; although her "revelation" didn't quite make sense.
The character that disappointed me most of all was Rei. As the series progressed, we got to see her slowly become humanized: more relatable of a character and who interacted better with Shinji. In EoE, however, she gets transformed into a freaky, inhuman thing, and we don't even know anymore if she's friend or foe. What's more, we don't know what ultimately became of her. Did she join humanity in Instrumentality, or did she die when her huge body broke apart? I had no idea.

My frustrations culminated in the final scene, which I thought was rather surreal. We have Shinji strangling Asuka in his own way of confirming reality, and how does she react? She calmly reaches up and caresses his face. Shouldn't her reaction to strangulation be more dramatic, especially since this is the fiery Asuka we're talking about? Also, IMO, this scene should have been more positive. Granted, both characters just went though incredibly traumatic events, but shouldn't they have some minor feelings of happiness for just being alive, and reunited? Instead, both characters came across as unhappy as ever.

I guess I really didn't know what to expect from this movie. :? I may give it a second chance in the future, though.

-----------------------------------

I'm aware there's a manga series, which I assume is available in the USA. How does it compare? Am I more likely to enjoy that version of the story?
Last edited by Rody on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Bret » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:13 pm

Rody wrote:Alright, I watched End of Evangelion. That cleared things up a little bit, but once Rei transformed it got bizarre again. The climax left me scratching my head.

...And wow, was this movie dark - and depressing - and disturbing. Needless to say, I'm still not satisfied.

I'm aware there's a manga series, which I assume is available in the USA. How does it compare? Am I more likely to enjoy that version of the story?


Shinji is more emotive like he's willing to go after and punch his father after the whole False Eva incident. Also Shinji and makoto's boyfriend(can't remember his name) have a different conversation in the melon patch in the manga than they did in the Anime. Also I THINK it's done. The guy has be incredibly slow on the manga. I mean sometimes there has been 2 years without a release. It's not that long of a series either.
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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Plexton » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:24 pm

I've read the manga and I found it quite enjoyable; it's the same basic story, but different in a number of interesting ways.

I suppose I will get around to watching Eva 2.0 sometime soon, as I've kind of been putting it off; I didn't care for the first one that much and I've heard very mixed things about the second. Still, to be fair, I shall try and judge the film as its own entity without constantly comparing the Rebuild series to the original.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Grignr » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:55 pm

And don't forget to buy an Asuka in bunny suit figure while you're at too! Also, Rebuild Rei body pillows are available while supplies last.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Plexton » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:07 pm

If the Rebuild film series ends with a 4th wall breaking joke about the immense merchandising of the franchise, I'll give it a standing ovation.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Terrier » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:28 pm

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Terrier wrote:The second Rebuild movie has Mari Makinami... and she's an annoying Mary Sue.

It always amuses me when people call Mari a Mary Sue. She's not. She's just as screwy as the rest of the cast. The difference is she's screwy in a fun and entertaining way. There's no way you can honestly say someone that adores the smell of blood and joyfully sings happy little songs while heading off into battle against a giant monster is mentally normal. She's less "WAHH MY LIFE SUCKS!" and more "POINT BLANK, SHITHEAD!"

And this is of course ignoring the fact that we know virtually nothing about Mari at this point in the first place.

In fact, both Shinji and Asuka feel bland in comparison to the anime (Maybe it's the lack of time); I don't care if some people mistake that with "less annoying" or "more awesome", and I understand that people may prefer more optimistic mecha animes... But that is not Evangelion.

"They changed it now it sucks."

Godzilla was originally a walking nuclear disaster that burned cities to the ground and killed thousands of people. Then he became a hero that saved the world from malicious walking turds and robotic space chickens. I don't see many Godzilla fans whining about that. Why does Evangelion have to adhere so closely to its original incarnation? The characters really haven't even been changed that much in the grand scheme of things. They got tweaked and/or toned down a little. That's really it. It's not like Shinji got turned into a vicious blood knight that wishes to see his enemies driven before him and hear the lamentations of their women, or Rei into some generic tsundere girl.

I don't care if some people mistake that with "less annoying" or "more awesome",

Yeah, this was in the above quote. But this line in particular frankly really bugged me, and deserves a directed response.

There is no "mistake" about those things. Finding the Rebuild portrayals of the characters less annoying or more awesome is entirely subjective. It isn't wrong to think that. And the fact that you think it is just shows that you're inherently biased on the matter.

These movies have exelent animation... big deal. What they really have in their favour is that they may explain many things and they will offer an alternative conclusion.

And that they're generally more accessible. And that they have a more uniform overall tone. And that they cut out a lot of ultimately superfluous stuff from the series.


The "Rebuild" movies are a reboot of the original series, it's in the title, it's supposed to "replace" it. A Godzilla example would be an hypothetical retelling of 'Gojira'. You don't see me complaining about 'Petit Eva: Evangelion@School' not getting the characters right on the same level: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7CR-cstMzc

I'm sick of always finding the same biased comments about "Shinji being a whiny skreeonk that does nothing but cry the whole series" that any smartass can copy and paste, and that just ignores everything he does and goes through, with someone coming and saying that in the new movies he "mans up" and "starts kicking Angel ass"; or that Asuka is awesome because of her attitude, ignoring that she is just hiding her broken mind....

Evangelion was something that dared to go there with its characters, it had them pretending and suffering because of it, and eventually being told to be honest with themselves. But aparently many people would rather have them pretending, if that way they can have just another show; so these movies go beyond that and makes a big part of the weight that characterized Evangelion in the first place non-existing...

It's not better, just easier to get and more accessible without making the original justice. I would say 'GINO' is an example of that, but I don't want to imply that the 'Rebuild' movies are on that level, it's more about the reception.



Rody wrote:Alright, I watched End of Evangelion. That cleared things up a little bit, but once Rei transformed it got bizarre again. The climax left me scratching my head.

...And wow, was this movie dark - and depressing - and disturbing. Needless to say, I'm still not satisfied.


Just take your time to digest the movie, eventually you will make sense out of it and even make your own ideas. Again, I recommend this FAQ: http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq.html

Bassically, Gendo's motivation is sabotaging the Instrumentality project in order to finally reunite with his wife. In this scenario, however, Rei takes matters into her own hands, takes control of the Adam-Lilith hybrid and gives Shinji in the Eva 01 the power to decide whether Instrumentality happens or not. Shinji was totally insane at that point, but eventually he concludes that life is worth living, even if it's painful, so he decides to stop Instrumentality and so everyone has the chance to return to life.

I actually find it very optimistic. Certainly more powerful than just collecting the action scennes and fan service with better animation and throwing away the pessimism.



Plexton wrote:If the Rebuild film series ends with a 4th wall breaking joke about the immense merchandising of the franchise, I'll give it a standing ovation.


'The End of Evangelion' did something like that. Near the end of the movie, we see a crowded alley with three guys in the center cosplaying as Rei, Shinji and Asuka, and later we see the theater where the movie premiered, some of the people have dolls of Asuka and Rei I think.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Primevalgodzilla V2 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:15 am

I actually find it very optimistic. Certainly more powerful than just collecting the action scennes and fan service with better animation and throwing away the pessimism.


To be fair, we haven't even reached the Tabris arc yet (and the manga did it better than the anime), so this could be jumping to conclusions abit.
It is a simple story. There is nothing that brings me happiness. Be it believing in others or them believe in me, it did not matter.
What others called happiness simply did not bring me joy.


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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Terrier » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:10 am

Primevalgodzilla V2 wrote:
I actually find it very optimistic. Certainly more powerful than just collecting the action scennes and fan service with better animation and throwing away the pessimism.


To be fair, we haven't even reached the Tabris arc yet (and the manga did it better than the anime), so this could be jumping to conclusions abit.


I know, the third movie may cover the whole "ending" aspect and who knows what the fourth one will be about, I'm referring more to how the two movies so far are being perceived in comparison to the anime.

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Re: Neon Genesis Evangelion

Postby Rody » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:24 am

Ahhhhhh.... Rebuild of Evangelion was a breath of fresh air for me.

1.0: You Are (Not) Alone was probably ninety percent the same as the first six episodes of the show, but that adjusted ten percent made a difference. I found the story and tone to be more coherent and steady (although the pacing was slightly rushed). The characters, IMO, weren't improved upon, but they weren't degraded either. Overall, the movie was a good introduction to the new story.
...And yes, Rebuild Ramiel was very cool. It's a shame Sachiel & Samshel didn't get more screen time, though.
7/10.

2.0: You Can (Not) Advance improved upon nearly everything. we had good action, great animation, and a steady pace & story. The characters were all done justice, and the interactions between them were, IMO, improved over the show. Rei, in particular, is much more interesting, as is her relationship with the Ikari's. I had a blast watching this.
Rebuild Sahaquiel was very cool as well. I was kind of indifferent to the new angels.
Unfortunately, I missed the first half of the battle with Zeruel (stupid YouTube - who is BandaiChannel even??), so I didn't fully get the ending. Nevertheless, I look forward to the next film.
8/10.
(And Misato has the Ghidorah phone! LOL!)

Terrier wrote:Just take your time to digest the movie, eventually you will make sense out of it and even make your own ideas. Again, I recommend this FAQ: http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq.html

I'll try to check out that FAQ at some point. However, I think it is a problem if a movie (or any story, for that matter) cannot explain itself by itself, when they should be capable of it.


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