General Gamera Thread

[LSD Jellyfish]

Eh, I think the plot, even if it’s hobbled together with stock footage, about Gamera being mind controlled is much more interesting and an actual story than whatever happens in Guiron. Viras’s design is so out there I kinda love it.

Anyways, I just watched Gamera vs Jiger and I love it. I think it might be the best, or at least is comparable to Gyaos and Barugon. It has three solid fights, all taking place in a different location. Jiger actually feels like a scary creature and we see it kill and attack the city. I like how it rams into two boats. The whole inside Gamera sequence is unique as well. Film also serves as a strange period piece by showing the world expo. It’s strange that it advertises the Tower of the Sun, which I’ve been to!

[daveblackeye15]

Yeah Jiger needs more love. A clear step up.

[LSD Jellyfish]

[Spuro]

Honey, the plastic skeletons escaped from the biology lab again.

[Terasawa]

What the hell is up with the one on the left's left elbow? Yikes.

[LSD Jellyfish]

The trilogy!

Anyways, watching Zigra now. Any idea why the films featured so many white children? Just curious if it has something to do with the directors life, or wanting to be more appealing to western kids. Not saying it’s anything nefarious.

The female alien in Zigra is super attractive. Also, I like the music they play when she chases the kids around.

Finished Zigra. Really bad. There’s some neat things (like the cutaways destroyed shots of Tokyo), but it’s the third film where Gamera is weakened and people in a small submersible have to help him. It’s the same damn film each time just with a different monster. It doesn’t help that Zigra, despite having a unique design, comes off as laughably incompetent, the humans aren’t important to the plot at all (Gamera is freed and saved by lightning).

Added in 20 hours 31 minutes 24 seconds:
Now the big question is whether I watch Gamera the Super Monster today...
I definitely will watch Brave soon.

After that I think I'm going to return to watching Ultraman and watch an episode or two a day of the series I haven't seen.

[MaxRebo320]

Any idea why the films featured so many white children? Just curious if it has something to do with the directors life, or wanting to be more appealing to western kids. Not saying it’s anything nefarious.

I think it was to just make the movies more marketable to other parts of the world.

It doesn’t help that Zigra, despite having a unique design, comes off as laughably incompetent

Zigra's gotta be the most incompetent villain in these movies. He has the whole world in his clutches, and then he immediately proceeds to take a nap, allowing Gamera to be freed and attack him. In fairness, I'd probably do the same.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Gamera the Super Monster was pretty dope. I’m surprised how much I enjoyed it, but to be clear, I don’t think it’s a good film. I think it might be one of my favorite Gamera films though and severely underrated.

First, I liked the AESTHETIC of the film. Film reeks actually of what a lot of nostalgic videos and memes online try to replicate. All the music, the outfits and some of the visuals, it’s fantastic. I like some of the trippy moments, like people jumping in and out of video screens, the flying van, and some of the more fantastical elements. The stuff with the organ was cool too. It borderline felt like at any moment it would turn into House (1977), and actually if I didn’t know Gamera prior I’d probably have a similar emotional reaction. It’s funny because all the stuff with gamera was the most normal stuff.

Second, I like the films plot. I’m serious. I think the kid in the film is really endearing, and comes off as what I think Toshiro was intended to be. In fact, it’s almost the same with him and the turtle. However, there’s something really strange going on, which isn’t clear (which I believe is an intentional choice) of how much all of this is the kids fantasy, and how the child might be using Gamera and the Space Women as a coping mechanism. There’s evidence in the film to support this (none of the adults know that Gamera exists, in universe Gamera is in a comic, the space women don’t interact with any adults, the whole flying scene at the end). I think the ambiguity is great. I’m not exactly how Gamera ties into this completely, but hey that’s fine. I view the scene of Gamera dying at the end as less than literal, and more of the kid accepting his turtle going away, or something else.

If you also want to dig deeper, there’s a possibility that something more nefarious is going on but I don’t want to speculate. The film could also be about puberty, yeah.

While yeah, pretty much all the Gamera footage is stock footage, let’s keep in mind that it’s pretty much most of the fights from the entire series and a few of those (Viras and Guiron) featured extensive stock footage or had little to no/rehashed plots (all the films Viras onwards are the same film). As a result, strangely it might be easier to recommend this over something like Viras or Guiron, as you get more monster action and destruction. And also, reusing footage from the original film, and putting it on a a tv with a red filter was a really clever way to hide that it was black and white originally. A lot of people also knock the Star Wars imagery, but when you combine it with some of the battle ship and animated sequences, you can buy into it that the kid is inspired by Star Wars in the same way he is Gamera.

Finally, I thought the lead space woman was pretty good looking...so hey there’s that! And it doesn’t feel inappropriate or bizarrely out of place (compared to the bikini clad girl in Zigra) as she works well as a mature adult and the scene with her talking the alien out of suicide is actually genuinely touching. And there’s a chance that the film might be about puberty, in which the woman being attractive works well. Mainly my idea is that the film is about growing up. At first the boy is a kid obsessed with turtles and innocent things. He develops feelings/“manly feelings” for the shop keeper, and develops a crush on her, and fantasizes about her (that’s why she’s the space woman). The film ends with Gamera dying (his childhood innocence) and exploding against something, before flying off with the space woman. You can definitely see something going on there...

It’s a shame that this film pretty much gets always written off as a dumpster fire. This was my first time seeing it, solely because of its reputation. I don’t think it’s a classic or anything, but I really like it and wish more people made their own opinion on it.

Also, just another warning, while still not as bad as the Gamera 3, the subs for this one is really bad. The new Gamera song isn’t translated at all (why not?) despite it having important plot significance because the kid himself wrote it. I noticed a few obvious errors that make me question things. Viras’s title card “水中怪獣” (Underwater Monster) is translated as “Deep Space Monster”. Things like that.

[Terasawa]

the space women don’t interact with any adults

Keiichi's mother speaks with both Kilara (disguised as the pet store owner) and Giruge (when she stays at Keiichi's); a cab driver witnesses the transformation and disappearance of one of the space women and her car (although he brushes it off as just having worked too hard); Giruge shocks one of the young men that hits on her (the only time one of the undisguised spacewomen physically interacts with another character).

I agree that there's a little more than meets the eye to this movie. It's odd and I can't quite make out the filmmakers' intentions. I'm much more familiar with the (hilarious) English version, so certain things may be different than originally filmed, but I read it as Keiichi running away with his imagination or dreams.

I don't care for this movie though because it has a depressing air to it, behind and in front of the camera: certain story aspects are borderline disturbing and the entire production is shoddy, ugly, and aesthetically displeasing. This is pretty unfairly compared to Godzilla's Revenge because both productions were heavily reliant on footage from previous movies, but I don't think Super Monster compares. There's just not enough artistic value, at least in my opinion. Yeah, you can make an argument that Keiichi's imagination is his coping mechanism but consider his mother: she's strict and apparently mostly uninterested in his life outside of his academics, but because we don't see much of her --or Keiichi's ordinary life that he might be trying to escape-- we don't really understand what he might be trying to get away from. This is in stark contrast to Ichiro: we see the kind of world he lives in and because of that we can understand why he wants to escape to the fantasy world of Monster Island. Godzilla's Revenge balances the real and imaginary worlds of its protagonist; Super Monster doesn't show us enough of reality.

[HedorahIsBestGirl]

I don't care for this movie though because it has a depressing air to it, behind and in front of the camera: certain story aspects are borderline disturbing and the entire production is shoddy, ugly, and aesthetically displeasing. This is pretty unfairly compared to Godzilla's Revenge because both productions were heavily reliant on footage from previous movies, but I don't think Super Monster compares. There's just not enough artistic value, at least in my opinion. Yeah, you can make an argument that Keiichi's imagination is his coping mechanism but consider his mother: she's strict and apparently mostly uninterested in his life outside of his academics, but because we don't see much of her --or Keiichi's ordinary life that he might be trying to escape-- we don't really understand what he might be trying to get away from. This is in stark contrast to Ichiro: we see the kind of world he lives in and because of that we can understand why he wants to escape to the fantasy world of Monster Island. Godzilla's Revenge balances the real and imaginary worlds of its protagonist; Super Monster doesn't show us enough of reality.

Even though I have a pretty low opinion of Godzilla's Revenge, I have to agree that it's a hell of a lot better than Super Monster. The blending of the real and surreal elements just doesn't work at all in Super Monster, and the stock footage usage is a lot more excessive. Plus, at least Godzilla's Revenge was apparently a personal film for Honda; Super Monster wasn't special for anyone. It was just a half-assed effort to keep Daiei from going bankrupt. Had it come out a year or two after Zigra, I could accept it as a farewell to Gamera. But coming out nine years after the fact, it's doubtful that anyone cared.

On a side note, I've heard that the effects production crew destroyed all of the Gamera suits and models prior to the film's creation, which is what necessitated the creation of the terrible Gamera prop seen in the film. Does anyone know if this is actually true?

[Terasawa]

Even though I have a pretty low opinion of Godzilla's Revenge, I have to agree that it's a hell of a lot better than Super Monster. The blending of the real and surreal elements just doesn't work at all in Super Monster, and the stock footage usage is a lot more excessive. Plus, at least Godzilla's Revenge was apparently a personal film for Honda; Super Monster wasn't special for anyone. It was just a half-assed effort to keep Daiei from going bankrupt. Had it come out a year or two after Zigra, I could accept it as a farewell to Gamera. But coming out nine years after the fact, it's doubtful that anyone cared.

This actually isn't quite the case; I think you're conflating elements of the production and release of Zigra with Super Monster.

The original iteration of Daiei was in horrible financial trouble by 1971, so much so that they didn't have the money to distribute Zigra and other films. Instead, they split distribution costs with the similarly-hurting Nikkatsu (which would shortly thereafter become a producer of softcore films) through an entity called Dainichi Film Distribution Co., Ltd. Daiei went bankrupt in November or December of 1971. It was dormant for a few years, I believe pending legal issues, but it was eventually resurrected by the enormous Tokuma Shoten publishing company.

Noriaki Yuasa, interviewed for Monsters Are Attacking Tokyo!:

Right after Gamera vs. Zigra, I went on location to film a picture called Maturity (1971). Before I left for location, I proposed that Gamera's next enemy should be a two-headed monster. After I came back from location, Daiei went bankrupt and I got a dismissal notice. It is difficult to express the regret I felt. I will never, ever forget about the bankruptcy. After New Daiei came about, one person came to me to asked [me to direct Super Monster, 1980] and I was reluctant to accept because it was hard to see the old friends, many of whom had been having trouble, and I'm sure Mr. [Nisan] Takahashi felt the same way. And the budget was very low. New Daiei didn't think of it as a new film and just wanted to cut the old footage together. I grieved for my son Gamera—it was a very strange fate.

They cared, but they didn't have a choice. They were simply carrying out the job they were hired to do. I believe the reason they killed Gamera off at the end of Super Monster was to prevent Daiei from doing another cheap cash-in.

Around 1991, Yuasa and Takahashi teamed up again to produce the Gamera vs. Garasharp concept featurette for the release of the Gamera series on LaserDisc. At the time, they both wanted to produce a new Gamera feature as a tribute and proper send-off for the character. Daiei was interested in reviving the character but instead brought Shusuke Kaneko aboard. I think even then Kaneko had to fight Daiei to make the movie we ended up getting.

On a side note, I've heard that the effects production crew destroyed all of the Gamera suits and models prior to the film's creation, which is what necessitated the creation of the terrible Gamera prop seen in the film. Does anyone know if this is actually true?

I'm sure there's some truth to that, but the reality is also that it happened shortly after the bankruptcy, and -after nearly a decade- none of the Gamera costumes would have been around anymore. A full Gamera costume was built for Super Monster but it was only used for one shot (when Gamera knocks over the "Dojira" poster). It was later used in commercials. (It can be seen here under construction.) As stiff as the one primary flying Gamera prop is, it also probably cost a lot. Judging from on-set photos, it was built to approximately the same scale as the costume. I'm pretty sure all of the new special effects were filmed against a blue screen and not on any physical sets. Maybe that's where George Lucas got the idea for his Star Wars prequels.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Keiichi's mother speaks with both Kilara (disguised as the pet store owner) and Giruge (when she stays at Keiichi's); a cab driver witnesses the transformation and disappearance of one of the space women and her car (although he brushes it off as just having worked too hard); Giruge shocks one of the young men that hits on her (the only time one of the undisguised spacewomen physically interacts with another character).

My takeaway was that Kilara was just a woman working as a pet shop. Keiichi likes her, and fantasizes about her as the space woman. We never see Kilara as the Space Woman talk to Keiichi's mother or anyone else (I could be wrong though). The scenes in which Keiichi talks to Kilara differ in tone. In some scenes, she appears to not believe Keiichi or playing along with his ideas. In others, she's fully embracing his stories, and adding to them. The scenes of the, watching the monster fights can also be interpreted as them simply watching the Gamera films together.

The big issue, and what you mentioned, is Giruge. There's a lot to unpack here, but similarly there's scenes in which it feels like Giruge is a real person, and ones where she is a fantasized version. A lot of her dialogue, such as when Keiichi leaves the train station, shouts Gamera's name, and meets her, comes across as her being a concerned adult...or predatory. There's a scene where Keiichi goes to the beach with Giruge, and states that he's in pain after, and the effect used is so hallucinatory. After, Keiichi says he wants to go home a different way, and she refuses, and he runs away. Again, I'm not saying this is intentional, but I got the impression that Giruge might represent a predatory older woman, who essentially kidnaps (and possibly molests) Keiichi. To be clear, I'm not trying to be gross, there's just a lot of evidence of something going on.

All the stuff with the van is also suspicious and raises alarm bells.

Additionally, the most bizarre part of the film, is when Giruge wakes up next Keiichi in bed. Uhhh....The mother acts like everything is casual, and it's really strange.

I don't care for this movie though because it has a depressing air to it, behind and in front of the camera: certain story aspects are borderline disturbing and the entire production is shoddy, ugly, and aesthetically displeasing. This is pretty unfairly compared to Godzilla's Revenge because both productions were heavily reliant on footage from previous movies, but I don't think Super Monster compares. There's just not enough artistic value, at least in my opinion. Yeah, you can make an argument that Keiichi's imagination is his coping mechanism but consider his mother: she's strict and apparently mostly uninterested in his life outside of his academics, but because we don't see much of her --or Keiichi's ordinary life that he might be trying to escape-- we don't really understand what he might be trying to get away from. This is in stark contrast to Ichiro: we see the kind of world he lives in and because of that we can understand why he wants to escape to the fantasy world of Monster Island. Godzilla's Revenge balances the real and imaginary worlds of its protagonist; Super Monster doesn't show us enough of reality.

I agree it can't compare to Godzilla's Revenge, especially on a production value. And Godzilla's Revenge is way more coherent. I think the fact that the film is also made in 1980, geez, also adds to it. But yeah, there is the aura of depression throughout the film, which is why I actually like some of the darker tones. And knowing the state of the studio isn't nice either.

[HedorahIsBestGirl]

This actually isn't quite the case; I think you're conflating elements of the production and release of Zigra with Super Monster.

I'm sure I was. I'm by no means an expert on the Showa Gamera movies; I've seen them all, but I haven't done much outside research on them. I was aware of the unmade Gamera vs. Garasharp, but I didn't know the details behind it, and Yuasa's dismissal from Daiei. Interesting stuff. Shame he got roped into doing Super Monster when he didn't really want to.

They cared, but they didn't have a choice. They were simply carrying out the job they were hired to do. I believe the reason they killed Gamera off at the end of Super Monster was to prevent Daiei from doing another cheap cash-in.

Sounds that way. Good for Yuasa and company, if that's the case. It's the kind of creative integrity you don't see much in the film industry today. Everyone's clamoring to make sequels and prequels and spin-offs to everything, no matter how pointless or soulless they are.

I'm pretty sure all of the new special effects were filmed against a blue screen and not on any physical sets. Maybe that's where George Lucas got the idea for his Star Wars prequels.

Yeah, maybe. Speaking of pointless prequels...

[Terasawa]

This actually isn't quite the case; I think you're conflating elements of the production and release of Zigra with Super Monster.

I'm sure I was. I'm by no means an expert on the Showa Gamera movies; I've seen them all, but I haven't done much outside research on them. I was aware of the unmade Gamera vs. Garasharp, but I didn't know the details behind it, and Yuasa's dismissal from Daiei. Interesting stuff. Shame he got roped into doing Super Monster when he didn't really want to.

I think he probably accepted so that he and the old crew could try to do something of value instead of an even more blatant cash grab.

Speaking of Garasharp, there's some confusion about that and the proposed 1972 Gamera movie. As I mentioned, Garasharp was an idea Takahashi cooked up later on and which was conceptualized in 1991 for the Gamera LaserDisc box. Japanese sources tell us that the original 1972 idea, featuring a two-headed opponent (Daiei's answer to Ghidorah), was tentatively titled "Gamera vs. Two-Headed Monster W." I assume Yuasa was slated to come back to that after filming what would become his last two non-Gamera films for Daiei. "Monster W" was a placeholder, just as Guiron was originally "Evil Beast Monster X."

The 1972 proposal was mentioned (not by name) in the same 1991 video feature that ended with the Garasharp concept film. I think that's the reason for the confusion. It's not even all that clear when watching it subtitled on the 2010 Shout! Factory DVD of Gamera.

TLDR: "Gamera vs. Monster W" was the proposed 1972 movie; Gamera vs. Garasharp was something else, produced as a proof-of-concept in 1991.

[omgitsgodzilla]

On a side note, I've heard that the effects production crew destroyed all of the Gamera suits and models prior to the film's creation, which is what necessitated the creation of the terrible Gamera prop seen in the film. Does anyone know if this is actually true?

I'm sure there's some truth to that, but the reality is also that it happened shortly after the bankruptcy, and -after nearly a decade- none of the Gamera costumes would have been around anymore. A full Gamera costume was built for Super Monster but it was only used for one shot (when Gamera knocks over the "Dojira" poster). It was later used in commercials. (It can be seen here under construction.) As stiff as the one primary flying Gamera prop is, it also probably cost a lot. Judging from on-set photos, it was built to approximately the same scale as the costume. I'm pretty sure all of the new special effects were filmed against a blue screen and not on any physical sets. Maybe that's where George Lucas got the idea for his Star Wars prequels.

IIRC at some point after Zigra huge swaths of Daiei's staff were "asked to resign" or screwed on severance pay or something to that effect -- essentially, some kind of a labor dispute -- and rioted, destroying the old props in the process. I think. I might be confusing it with another incident.

[HedorahIsBestGirl]

IIRC at some point after Zigra huge swaths of Daiei's staff were "asked to resign" or screwed on severance pay or something to that effect -- essentially, some kind of a labor dispute -- and rioted, destroying the old props in the process. I think. I might be confusing it with another incident.

Pretty sure this is what I read in a G-Fan magazine or something. I don't remember the details, either.

[Gigantis]

Yeah i think i heard of the labor dispute thing that drove Daiei out of buisness. Kinda sucks really, would've loved to see Gamera vs. Wyvern.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Gamera the Brave is easily the best Gamera film after the Trilogy. It effectively does exactly what the Showa Gamera series really wanted to do.

First, the drama with Toru's mother dying, feels realistic. He's not unrealistically angsty, or suddenly a psycho like Toshiro. The film delves into it enough, and devotes the first third of the film to exploring this. The scene with Toru's father talking to his friend in the downstairs area is also really telling. It's not villanizing him and provides his perspective. It doesn't come off as a kids film where adults don't have reasons for being concerned. There's also a reason for the father not wanting Toru to keep the turtle as they live/work in a restaurant. A lot of older Gamera films separate the world of adults and children, and this film does a good job at being a kids film while still have realistic adult character.

Toru himself is also good. And the film introduces another dramatic problem with Mai's surgery who isn't overly dramatized as well. They tie Toru into Toto as well, with Toru worrying he will lose Toto like his mother.

I think the monster action, in moments is pretty good. I don't mind Toto/Gamera not being an adult. I think Zedus is a good looking monster, and the scene with it eating people is horrifying. I like it's tongue weapon which is a cool callback to

My only issue with maybe the fights, is that it feels there's too many cuts between what's going on. The fight with Zedus is interesting, especially because of the size of the monsters, but I still wish there was more cohesion. I don't mind the scenes of the kids passing the stone on and on, but I think it could've been stream lined/cut down just a little and still have the same effect. And maybe just a bit more screen time with Toto.

Some of the fanservice was nice as well. I realized the year 1972/3(?) serves as a way to actually cap off the Showa Gamera series, and provides a better ending than Gamera Super Monster. I'm not saying they're the same continuity, but I see it as a a symbolic new ending.

I think Gamera the Brave is a really good kids film.

[eabaker]

I don't mind the scenes of the kids passing the stone on and on, but I think it could've been stream lined/cut down just a little and still have the same effect.

I really like that scene. I agree that it could have been tightened a bit, but at the same time, it's kind of the movie's most important set-piece - more significant than any of the monster action - so I think it deserves to be given some time to play out/build.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I don't mind the scenes of the kids passing the stone on and on, but I think it could've been stream lined/cut down just a little and still have the same effect.

I really like that scene. I agree that it could have been tightened a bit, but at the same time, it's kind of the movie's most important set-piece - more significant than any of the monster action - so I think it deserves to be given some time to play out/build.

That's true and it's effectively giving the children an important role in the film. I'm not saying I didn't like it, I think it makes the film unique, I'm just saying I think there might have been a better way to have both going on at the same time.