The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread

[Gigantis]

Think it's also fair to note that it's been confirmed that Neronga and Gabora are NOT going to be the only monsters in SU.. we could honestly get like, five more additions to the roster with the film alone depending on what Tsuburaya does.

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

Think it's also fair to note that it's been confirmed that Neronga and Gabora are NOT going to be the only monsters in SU.. we could honestly get like, five more additions to the roster with the film alone depending on what Tsuburaya does.

Out of curiosity, where did you hear this?

[Gigantis]

Think it's also fair to note that it's been confirmed that Neronga and Gabora are NOT going to be the only monsters in SU.. we could honestly get like, five more additions to the roster with the film alone depending on what Tsuburaya does.

Out of curiosity, where did you hear this?

It was on the Nebula m78 Reddit, i swear there was even a link... actually it might be on the Shin Ultraman page here, hold on.

Added in 3 minutes 11 seconds:
I found it!
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/5f539 ... edb?page=2

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

Hmmm… I wouldn’t quite call that “confirmation”, but still a good find, and does point towards it.

[SoggyNoodles2016]

Come on, Shin Zetton, come on Shin Zetton, come on Shin Zetton.....

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

Come on, Shin Zetton, come on Shin Zetton, come on Shin Zetton.....

Would literally be added with no discussion (aside from “fuck yeah!!!”) or argument, like MV Mechagodzilla.

[CommanderPhoenix]

I don't know that much about Ultraman but isn't his archenemy Alien Baltan? I'd say he's pretty likely, since AFAIK Neronga and Gabora aren't exactly powerful monsters.

[SoggyNoodles2016]

I don't know that much about Ultraman but isn't his archenemy Alien Baltan? I'd say he's pretty likely, since AFAIK Neronga and Gabora aren't exactly powerful monsters.

Baltan is his most iconic enemy, but Zetton is by far his deadliest enemy.

To put it in perspective, Baltan is his King Ghidorah, Zetton is his Destroyah

[GodzillaFan8889]

Spoiler:

Dang nabbit, Shin's getting retired and I haven't even finished my Round 2 of Godzilla (Legendary) vs Godzilla (Reiwa/Shin), even though I understand why he's getting tossed.

Welp, on the plus side, if there's really no time for me to finish it and send it to the KWC, I can just have the ending go skreeonking nuts with their power for the KWCE.

Also, I'm pretty hyped for Godzilla Ultima's inclusion based on what I've read here! Being able to grow in size, being able to use his lesser forms, terraforming?! Holy poop, he is actually insane! It's gonna be cool writing matches with him!

[TitanoGoji16]

Spoilered for length (everything within is unspoiled, though):

Spoiler:

Mostly because all Kamata Kun and Shinagawa Kun could do is this.https://youtu.be/hvO4a_JuYko

You see, the problem with that is, they don’t do anything. Kamata-Kun and Shinagawa-kun walk around and bleed on the ground, and that’s all.

Obviously, because there wasn't another kaiju for them to fight in the movie...

It will be incredibly boring as hell if all of Shin’s matches were just If Shin’s opponent’s attacks don’t kill him in time, they become less effective.

Is that any different/better than "If Ultima's opponent's attacks don't kill him in time, he will cause 'the catastrophe' and win automatically?"

Because 2nd and 3rd form Shin literally just walk. They display no ability to defend themselves in the slightest, or inflict damage in a way that isn’t just clumsily moving into things. Ultima’s lesser forms display the ability to fight, and well, they have abilities in the first place.

Shinagawa-kun can vomit up streams of corrosive/boiling blood. "We can't use that power because it's from a deleted scene!" This can no longer be used as an argument with GMK Anguirus and the Gryphon on the roster. Deleted powers are a no-no, but entire deleted monsters are okay? We know what Shinagawa-kun's blood spew looks like. We know how it functions. We can write it as being strong enough to affect and injure other kaiju, as we do with Gezora's freezing touch.

...I'm just going to be blunt. Sentimental, much?

Wow. This comes off as really aggressive and borderline rude for no real reason. I haven't gotten personal with anyone, I've been discussing the character of Shin Godzilla and why I think it's a mistake to retire him. But if you want to make rude, snarky comments, then sure, we can do that.

Also, I'm not even sure what you're trying to communicate here. "Sentimental much?" Uhh... yeah? Isn't that the point? Isn't that why the KWC even exists? Because we all love these characters, and thus have sentiment for them? I forgot writing was supposed to be an emotionless, passionless, joyless experience...

Also, protoforms. Like it or not, Aquatilis and Terrestris actually engaged in combat.

Are we counting "combat" as only fighting with other monsters, or with any form of opposition, such as the military? Because if it's the former, then quite a few KWC combatants haven't 'engaged in combat,' either.

Kamata-kun? Really? If I had to extend back, it'd just be Shinagawa, because he at least has a figure and mobility to work with

I feel like somewhere between Manda and Mothra Larva, Kamata-kun would work just fine.

even context clues probably suggest that Kamata and Shinagawa are frail and probably would've died had the helicopters opened fire.

Ganimes had his eyes shot out by a gun. Gezora was burnt by a bonfire. Gaira almost died to masers. Godzillasaurus was mortally wounded by naval cannons (yeah, he's retired, but weakness/lack of durability wasn't one of the reasons why). Ebirah had his claws blown apart by guns. Zilla? 'Nuff said.

Gamera is constantly shown being injured by the military.

That, and would you really want to have a monster who is extremely restricted on what you or any other authors are allow or not allow? As oppose to someone who is similar, but were allowed to do allot of things with it?

The point of why Shin has to go is because of all the restrictive rules of what we can/can’t do with his adaption ability. And really, having a monster with a power thats that restricted?

Especially when, again, there’s noteworthy issues with keeping Shin on board, and there’s a Godzilla that does the “constantly evolving threat to the planet and will overtake it” shtick better than he does. Again, we can barely do poop with Shin’s adaptation, which was the main draw of him and what people want to see out of him. And while Ultima doesn’t have that adaptation, he already pulls the kinda poop people would have wanted to do with Shin but would have gotten rejected (terraforming, growing in height while in his final form, blood tentacles), and with the added bonus of knowing what we can and can’t do with him as opposed to Shin where it’s a bunch of grey areas when we want to give him anything beyond the most simple poop that makes him actually capable of fighting.

Let me get this straight; you'd rather have us suffer in having to constantly, AGONIGINZLY have to check through every single Shin Godzilla match because Tyler won't allow for more over-the-top adaptations? Because people have a different view of what undefined adaptations are? Shin has been the biggest thorn in the side for us because of the insane amount of restrictions in place (though a good exercise of what not to add to the KWC and what to look out for on an internal level).

Or, maybe, now call me crazy... the KWC could lighten up and allow people to be more creative with Shin Godzilla so he's not quite such a restrictive pain in the ass to write with. You guys keep speaking like these rules for Shin Godzilla were written in stone and sent to us from on high by the spirit of Eiji Tsuburaya... but they weren't. You guys made them up. You can't complain about how hard it is to write with Shin Godzilla when you're the ones that made him hard to write with.

Back when I wrote the KWC FAQ and I added the question "Can I have Ghidorah grow an extra five heads, or make Anguirus be able to fly, or have Mothra transform into Megalon?" I wasn't just being silly for humorous effect. People were actually asking me if they could do crazy stuff like that! But, as it made no sense for the characters of Megalon, King Ghidorah, and Anguirus, I said no, as it had no basis in the characters as the films presented them.

But Shin Godzilla? That works for Shin Godzilla. That's literally the entire point of the character. He's like Hedorah or Destoroyah, but in Godzilla form. Allow it. Let him stand on his tail. Let him spray a Biollante-like stream of blood from his mouth. Let him grow wings. Let him attack by having his chest open up into a big, The Thing-like mouth. Let part of his tail get severed and evolve into a new, separate Kamata-kun. Let him sacrifice his tail to give birth to the little creepy Godzilla people from the end of the movie to help him out. While I do agree there's probably a limit where you want to stop things before they get too crazy... I don't understand why you won't let Shin Godzilla get any level of crazy.

Putting Shin Godzilla on the KWC roster and then denying him the ability to do things like this is intentionally sabotaging the character.

[KaijuX]

Or, maybe, now call me crazy... the KWC could lighten up and allow people to be more creative with Shin Godzilla so he's not quite such a restrictive pain in the ass to write with. You guys keep speaking like these rules for Shin Godzilla were written in stone and sent to us from on high by the spirit of Eiji Tsuburaya... but they weren't. You guys made them up. You can't complain about how hard it is to write with Shin Godzilla when you're the ones that made him hard to write with.

Back when I wrote the KWC FAQ and I added the question "Can I have Ghidorah grow an extra five heads, or make Anguirus be able to fly, or have Mothra transform into Megalon?" I wasn't just being silly for humorous effect. People were actually asking me if they could do crazy stuff like that! But, as it made no sense for the characters of Megalon, King Ghidorah, and Anguirus, I said no, as it had no basis in the characters as the films presented them.

But Shin Godzilla? That works for Shin Godzilla. That's literally the entire point of the character. He's like Hedorah or Destoroyah, but in Godzilla form. Allow it. Let him stand on his tail. Let him spray a Biollante-like stream of blood from his mouth. Let him grow wings. Let him attack by having his chest open up into a big, The Thing-like mouth. Let part of his tail get severed and evolve into a new, separate Kamata-kun. Let him sacrifice his tail to give birth to the little creepy Godzilla people from the end of the movie to help him out. While I do agree there's probably a limit where you want to stop things before they get too crazy... I don't understand why you won't let Shin Godzilla get any level of crazy.

Putting Shin Godzilla on the KWC roster and then denying him the ability to do things like this is intentionally sabotaging the character.

Which is exactly what happened and why he's being put down. I see no point in keeping a character we can't be creative or out of the box with, and will only induce more problems than its worth in the current state of affairs. If I had my way while being restrictive, I'd point to the concept art and early footage for reference (plus use of the 5th form)--which has plenty of wonderful and zany stuff Shin could do. Had that been the case, I would've loved to have kept him.

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

Or, maybe, now call me crazy... the KWC could lighten up and allow people to be more creative with Shin Godzilla so he's not quite such a restrictive pain in the ass to write with. You guys keep speaking like these rules for Shin Godzilla were written in stone and sent to us from on high by the spirit of Eiji Tsuburaya... but they weren't. You guys made them up. You can't complain about how hard it is to write with Shin Godzilla when you're the ones that made him hard to write with.

Back when I wrote the KWC FAQ and I added the question "Can I have Ghidorah grow an extra five heads, or make Anguirus be able to fly, or have Mothra transform into Megalon?" I wasn't just being silly for humorous effect. People were actually asking me if they could do crazy stuff like that! But, as it made no sense for the characters of Megalon, King Ghidorah, and Anguirus, I said no, as it had no basis in the characters as the films presented them.

But Shin Godzilla? That works for Shin Godzilla. That's literally the entire point of the character. He's like Hedorah or Destoroyah, but in Godzilla form. Allow it. Let him stand on his tail. Let him spray a Biollante-like stream of blood from his mouth. Let him grow wings. Let him attack by having his chest open up into a big, The Thing-like mouth. Let part of his tail get severed and evolve into a new, separate Kamata-kun. Let him sacrifice his tail to give birth to the little creepy Godzilla people from the end of the movie to help him out. While I do agree there's probably a limit where you want to stop things before they get too crazy... I don't understand why you won't let Shin Godzilla get any level of crazy.

Putting Shin Godzilla on the KWC roster and then denying him the ability to do things like this is intentionally sabotaging the character.

We tried.

Greyshot said no.

[GodzillavsJason]

Greyshot is very adamant on what Shin can do. We, as in the rest of the staff, ten people, have tried everything to make Shin more palatable for everyone. Unfortunately, things don't pan out the way we want them to.

So stop implying we're not trying or we're retiring it for the hell of it. It's getting really annoying when certain people make these shitty accusations when they have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

And yes, we hold like several meetings a week to discuss stuff like this.

[Greyshot151]

...walks into room where fighting is taking place...

So, ugh. I guess I should explain my stance for Shin.

On a personal note I'm an Accountant. I'm very much one that likes rules and limitations as I believe that kind of environment, when done correctly, can foster immense creativity. I say all this as the very core of Shin's character, in theory, goes against all of that. He's described as being constantly evolving, constantly changing, with no inherent limitations. The concept art and other corresponding data supports this to a degree, but then I watch the movie and I don't see it...

Once he reaches his "final" form, he really doesn't change physically at all. He uses his atomic ray, in a variety of ways, but he never physically changes to what he confronts. Like when he had the thing blasting poison into his throat, based on the background info you would assume his body would adapt immediately to it (Close his throat, grow a new head, close his f*cking mouth) but he doesn't. You'd think in the GXE ride that when fighting Ghidorah, he'd grow wings, get bigger, etc but he doesn't. So yeah, I understand people wanting to use the cutting room stuff, but sometimes things are dropped for a reason and don't work with the character that makes it to screen. For all the hype Shin gets, I think pushing his character too far to the ultimate, adapting lifeform is ignoring the character we actually got in the film. A mutation which left uncontrolled could destroy the world, but one still shackled with its own limitations.

As to the random questions I've seen:

1) Why not just add the smaller forms for Shin - Because Ultima's forms transition immediately while Shin (especially from 3 to 4) needs time. Ultima just morphs like Destoroyah, Hedorah, Battra, etc into his next form.

2) You have cutting room monster (TBA), why not give monster (TBA) ability which was cut - Reiterating what I said about Shin. Sometimes a cut ability is cut for a reason. Shin sliding on his tail like a snake is about as removed from the final product as you can get so it doesn't make sense to me.

3) So can Ultima adapt? - No. He still has the same limitations I have for Shin. He can't grow three heads or make wings, but he can do everything he can in the show which is ALOT.

So while plenty of rules have changed, rules are maintained for a reason for its writers & combatants, and I think with those limitations we've seen some truly great matches flourish. Some of those may even have Shin in them... cough cough. Six and a half years ago, I was asked to ensure the K.W.C. was well cared for and that I intend to do. Besides, someone needs to be the fun killer here

[Moth]

if you guys want an indestructible reiwa monster, just use salunga lmao

this post was made by the MONKEY gang

I still stand by and say that Shin moving to the KWCE is a better fit for the monster. You can write your ever evolving, beam spamming, long armed, flying, multi-eyed, purple people eater Shin there.

[Gigantis]

2) You have cutting room monster (TBA), why not give monster (TBA)

... Did you just randomly tease two scrap monsters while also giving a speech?

[Greyshot151]

2) You have cutting room monster (TBA), why not give monster (TBA)

... Did you just randomly tease two scrap monsters while also giving a speech?

No, I originally said, "You have cutting room Monster X, why not give Monster X said ability." Then I realized people may think I was talking about the actual Monster X instead of generic monster

[soulgodzilla]

Exactly what these guys said. I should worry less about Shin, and be happy that were getting a new Godzilla from a series thats still going, MKG and C-Rex not getting retired, Daigoro and Goliath getting unretired, the allowance to Leo Larva, Rose Biollante and more.

[KaijuX]

1) Why not just add the smaller forms for Shin - Because Ultima's forms transition immediately while Shin (especially from 3 to 4) needs time. Ultima just morphs like Destoroyah, Hedorah, Battra, etc into his next form.

I'd personally like to add on as an addendum -- why Cretaceous Ghidorah if that isn't instantaneous like the rest? Cretaceous an exception to this (Leo Larva could be argued that he can evolve from Larva to Imago rather quickly, akin to Amphibia to Terrestris), since we did come to an agreement that having more ways to convey GKG would be for the better (plus, the logic gap of "going to the past to defeat GKG" can finally be filled instead of resorting to GKG in the prehistoric past). Plus, Cretaceous is at least combat adept; our only criteria is that he adheres to how he evolves in the original source material (so there shouldn't be circumstances where Cretaceous suddenly develops into GKG unless a time-skip is involved). Even though we were granted permission to add protoforms, Anthony still requested about keeping them relatively instantaneous, and that's something we're going to be adhering to moving forward.

[TitanoGoji16]

Which is exactly what happened and why he's being put down. I see no point in keeping a character we can't be creative or out of the box with, and will only induce more problems than its worth in the current state of affairs.

Which, no offense, seems really... not-well-thought-out, honestly. If this was going to be a problem with Shin Godzilla, he shouldn't have even been put on the roster in the first place.

We tried.

Greyshot said no.

Greyshot is very adamant on what Shin can do. ... So stop implying we're not trying or we're retiring it for the hell of it. It's getting really annoying when certain people make these shitty accusations

Just to clarify, that last bit of my post was directed more at Greyshot than anyone else. I was well aware that he's the one who's been... well, finicky, shall we say... about Shin's portrayal. I guess I didn't communicate that as well as I could have though, so for that much, I apologize. Trust me, I'm well aware of the work that goes into keeping this boat afloat.

Shin's character, in theory, goes against all of that. He's described as being constantly evolving, constantly changing, with no inherent limitations. The concept art and other corresponding data supports this to a degree, but then I watch the movie and I don't see it...

Then, as I said to KaijuX, he should've never been allowed on the roster in the first place. If you have these issues with Shin Godzilla and the way people would want to portray him in matches, then surely you had them during the whole "Should we add Shin Godzilla to the KWC?" discussion phase.

Once he reaches his "final" form, he really doesn't change physically at all. He uses his atomic ray, in a variety of ways, but he never physically changes to what he confronts. Like when he had the thing blasting poison into his throat, based on the background info you would assume his body would adapt immediately to it (Close his throat, grow a new head, close his f*cking mouth) but he doesn't. You'd think in the GXE ride that when fighting Ghidorah, he'd grow wings, get bigger, etc but he doesn't. So yeah, I understand people wanting to use the cutting room stuff, but sometimes things are dropped for a reason and don't work with the character that makes it to screen. For all the hype Shin gets, I think pushing his character too far to the ultimate, adapting lifeform is ignoring the character we actually got in the film. A mutation which left uncontrolled could destroy the world, but one still shackled with its own limitations.

While I get what you're saying, it ultimately still doesn't make any sense to me because the KWC has always played loosely with the monsters' personalities and abilities, and what is possible in the KWCverse vs. in the movies. We've always tweaked things about the monsters to make them more capable and proficient combatants, as well as more fun to write with. Probably the best example is Battra being able to go back and forth between larval and adult forms. Sure, he doesn't do it in the movie, but it makes sense - Since it's just a quick flash of light and not an extended cocooning process like Mothra's transformation, and it seems pretty effortless, why wouldn't he be able to just do it a second time? - and thus it's become a KWC staple. Then there's GFW King Caesar having the reflective eyes, or Showa Gomora having the Super Oscillatory Wave. Jet Jaguar, Mecha-King Ghidorah, GMK Baragon, and Showa Anguirus all have powers pulled from other, secondary sources that they never possessed in their respective films. Manda has a "encases body in fire" power when it's really just Manda got set on fire in one scene. We can have the Nebulans in control of GFW Gigan instead of Showa Gigan. We can have the Showa Xiliens and the GFW Xiliens interacting. I think one or two matches with Heisei Godzilla were written with GMK Godzilla in mind and it was basically just "Eh, just use Heisei Godzilla for the banner and it'll be fine." The fact that Gezora can stand a chance against literally anybody else on the roster.

I just don't understand why "Shin Godzilla cannot get weird, even though the movie tells us that he can get weird" is the hill you're choosing to die on.

And yeah, maybe Shin Godzilla isn't the smartest kaiju on the block and, in the climax of his movie, let the military shoot a bunch of poison down his throat like a dumbass. But this is the KWC. We take canonical dumbasses like Varan, Megalon, and Gabara and write matches where they go up against kaiju like Monster X and SpaceGodzilla and come out on top all the time. Sometimes we write them as dumb as they are in the movies, sometimes we write them smarter, and sometimes we write them even dumber. And honestly, "Shin Godzilla wasn't as smart as he coulda been in one scene" as evidence that he is incapable of evolving faster doesn't really hold up, either. Shin Godzilla not using his evolution ability to rid himself of the poison trucks is like Heisei Godzilla only using his Nuclear Pulse once per movie instead of repeatedly spamming it until his enemies are ashes. Sometimes kaiju just don't use their powers to their fullest and smartest potential, even when it's to their detriment.

1) Why not just add the smaller forms for Shin - Because Ultima's forms transition immediately while Shin (especially from 3 to 4) needs time. Ultima just morphs like Destoroyah, Hedorah, Battra, etc into his next form.

Kamata-kun transforms into Shinagawa-kun in literal seconds, so there's already precedent for it. And sure, he needs time to transform into Shin Godzilla in the movie, but that's in the movie, under those specific circumstances. If it's in the middle of a fight with another kaiju that won't let him run away? Who knows, maybe he could force himself into an instant transformation if need be. That could even be a story element. "Godzilla didn't transform as he would've preferred, by first resting and building up his strength. With his evolution having been so fast and forced, he found himself weak and disoriented. Would he be able to overcome his foe, even with having evolved into a stronger form, or was it all for naught?"

No, I originally said, "You have cutting room Monster X, why not give Monster X said ability." Then I realized people may think I was talking about the actual Monster X instead of generic monster

Oh my God, you're adding Jiger a.k.a. Monster X from Gamera vs. Monster X?! #JigerConfirmed