Synapsid Godzilla - Yay or nay?

[LegendZilla]

Hey folks, LegenZilla here once more. Today I will like to discuss a relatively popular form of re-imagining Godzilla among fans. In recent years, I have come across an array of fanart depicting Godzilla as a giant synapsid (the quasi-reptilian precursor to the mammal lineage for those of you who don't know), as opposed to the typical saurian background he's often depicted as having. What do you people think of this idea?

I personally find this take on the character very intriguing. One advantage it has is that it helps explain the quasi-mammalian traits he's traditionally had, such as external ears and cat-like face. Another is that making him as such means you don't have to go the GINO route of redesigning him by making him look like a generic theropod with spikes on his back. As a bonus it does help justify the name "Gojira" more when you come to think about it.

At the end of the day, do you think making him a synapsid is a clever new way to interpret the character? I for one hope to see a Godzilla film that depicts him as such. Tell me whether or not you agree or disagree and please state your reasons why.

[LSD Jellyfish]

The instant the word "synapsid" is ever used in a Godzilla film I'm out.

[LegendZilla]

The instant the word "synapsid" is ever used in a Godzilla film I'm out.

Could you care to explain why? Is it because you're tired of all the pseudo-science babbled out across the franchise?

[Gomi: Ninja Monster]

The instant the word "synapsid" is ever used in a Godzilla film I'm out.

Could you care to explain why? Is it because you're tired of all the pseudo-science babbled out across the franchise?

I'm betting it's the same reason people were hating on Singular Point's Rodan design being pterosaur-influenced, because it's been done in the fandom lots of times already and is as such boring now. For whatever reason popular things from a franchise's fandom making their way into the franchise itself is usually met with harsh criticism, I get it to an extent but still it seems a bit knee-jerk more often than not.

Personally, if they want to make a Godzilla movie where the kaiju stay 50 meters or under and take a hard speculative biology angle, I'm down for it.

[LSD Jellyfish]

The instant the word "synapsid" is ever used in a Godzilla film I'm out.

Could you care to explain why? Is it because you're tired of all the pseudo-science babbled out across the franchise?

I'm betting it's the same reason people were hating on Singular Point's Rodan design being pterosaur-influenced, because it's been done in the fandom lots of times already and is as such boring now. For whatever reason popular things from a franchise's fandom making their way into the franchise itself is usually met with harsh criticism, I get it to an extent but still it seems a bit knee-jerk more often than not.

Not really, though you’re right about it being a knee-jerk reaction. I’ve probably stated this multiple times on this forum, but to me most of the 怪獣/Kaiju should be literally strange beasts. I like Godzilla because he is specifically in context of the original film and most of the series, a strange creature that is not easily identifiable and in many ways contradicts modern science and biology; because he is a monster. I don’t like the idea of Godzilla, or most of his coworkers being dinosaurs or anything remotely scientific or easily identifiable.

There’s been Godzilla movies that do liken him, and other monsters to real world creatures, and that’s fine, but it’s never gotten to the point that’s crossed the line for me. G14 and Shin (ironically enough) came close, but both inserted their own mystique and mythos into the series in order to keep things interesting and clever.

Synapsid, the word itself, bothers me. A four legged Godzilla, or one that is even in mammalian in nature doesn’t disturb me. That’s what a synapsid is anyways, right? But the instant you use real word scientific words, I zone out. Call me a Luddite.

I’m fine with the Rodan creatures in Singular Point.

TLDR; Monsters in the Godzilla franchise should always be special and magical. Trying to box them into easily identifiable categories, annoys me and feels like a sanitization of something wonderful and fantastical.

[NSZ]

The day when people stop hyperfixating on Godzilla's superficial mammalian features in a futile attempt at applying a scientific classification is the day I get "wake up in another state" blackout drunk.

[edgaguirus]

Personally, it hardly matters to me what Godzilla developed from. Being the "intermediary animal" provides a nice mystery as to what he is, but giving him some prehistoric classification doesn't take away from the character. How they represent Godzilla is the important part.

[LegendZilla]

Not really, though you’re right about it being a knee-jerk reaction. I’ve probably stated this multiple times on this forum, but to me most of the 怪獣/Kaiju should be literally strange beasts. I like Godzilla because he is specifically in context of the original film and most of the series, a strange creature that is not easily identifiable and in many ways contradicts modern science and biology; because he is a monster. I don’t like the idea of Godzilla, or most of his coworkers being dinosaurs or anything remotely scientific or easily identifiable.

There’s been Godzilla movies that do liken him, and other monsters to real world creatures, and that’s fine, but it’s never gotten to the point that’s crossed the line for me. G14 and Shin (ironically enough) came close, but both inserted their own mystique and mythos into the series in order to keep things interesting and clever.

Synapsid, the word itself, bothers me. A four legged Godzilla, or one that is even in mammalian in nature doesn’t disturb me. That’s what a synapsid is anyways, right? But the instant you use real word scientific words, I zone out. Call me a Luddite.

I’m fine with the Rodan creatures in Singular Point.

TLDR; Monsters in the Godzilla franchise should always be special and magical. Trying to box them into easily identifiable categories, annoys me and feels like a sanitization of something wonderful and fantastical.

Yeah, but apart from mammals, there are no living creatures like a synapsids today. In that sense, it still does does help Godzilla stand out as a “strange beast”.

[Kaltes-Herzeleid]

The day when people stop hyperfixating on Godzilla's superficial mammalian features in a futile attempt at applying a scientific classification is the day I get "wake up in another state" blackout drunk.

And the simple explanation for his mammalian features is a reference to dragons. People would know this if they actually bothered learning about another culture, but evidently that's too difficult for fans of a foreign franchise.

(For the record, not aimed at you, just a general statement)

[Gerdzerl]

I'm all for it, it'd be fun. Non-mammalian synapsids are cool, there's tons of interesting prehistoric animals that aren't dinosaurs that could make for pretty awesome kaiju.

[SoggyNoodles2016]

I feel the same as any other scientific addition to Godzilla: use it to make the kaiju LESS understandable instead of better, and I'm all for it.

Really, though. Let's just make a bunch of synapsid kaiju. Most of them do look like they belong in a tokusatsu production anyhow

[Gerdzerl]

I think these kinds of details about what specific kaiju are work best for guidebooks and whatnot. Like a fun bonus for people (like me) who are deeply interested in all of the various lore and intricacies of a fictional world. Said details don't need to be present in the films themselves, or at least not to a degree that's distracting to folks who aren't that deeply invested and just want to watch a movie.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I think these kinds of details about what specific kaiju are work best for guidebooks and whatnot. Like a fun bonus for people (like me) who are deeply interested in all of the various lore and intricacies of a fictional world. Said details don't need to be present in the films themselves, or at least not to a degree that's distracting to folks who aren't that deeply invested and just want to watch a movie.

I suppose I'm fine with that. I found all the extra stuff in the shin art book really investing, but I don't think I'd be so keen on it being in the film.

[Kaltes-Herzeleid]

I'll share my two cents:
I don't watch kaiju or tokusatsu for "realism" or "scientific accuracy." To me, such things don't matter, what matters is whether or not it works within the context of its established setting. When I watch, say, a Showa Gamera movie, I don't watch for realism. I watch because, as one follower of mine on Letterboxd said, they're "childhood daydreams without an iota of cynicism." To me the best of them embody a time period of innocence. When the world was still bright and new and adventure was around every corner. I don't watch Heisei Gamera for "realism" either. I like them because their thematic elements in regards to faith and spirituality resonate with me deeply; and when I watch them I love that I can feel the passion and ambition the filmmakers had for their art.

From my personal experience and by that extension, perspective, part of the reason Japanese media appeals to me so much (and forgive me if it sounds like I'm straying into weebish "Japan wank," it isn't my intention) is that it feels like one of the last bastions of creativity. Embracing the "fantastical" in complete earnest and totally free of the banalities of this world. American media today feels so cynical and drenched in this awful nihilistic irony that's just tedious to sit through and feels utterly meaningless.

And for the record it isn't that I can't handle thematically dark elements in a story, but there has to be a point to it, or no matter how small it may appear, some beauty to counterbalance it out. That's the kind of stuff I look for in what I find important and meaningful to me personally. "Accuracy" to this world is generally one of the last things on my mind, especially with kaiju and toku.

[Gomi: Ninja Monster]

I'm betting it's the same reason people were hating on Singular Point's Rodan design being pterosaur-influenced, because it's been done in the fandom lots of times already and is as such boring now. For whatever reason popular things from a franchise's fandom making their way into the franchise itself is usually met with harsh criticism, I get it to an extent but still it seems a bit knee-jerk more often than not.

Not really, though you’re right about it being a knee-jerk reaction. I’ve probably stated this multiple times on this forum, but to me most of the 怪獣/Kaiju should be literally strange beasts. I like Godzilla because he is specifically in context of the original film and most of the series, a strange creature that is not easily identifiable and in many ways contradicts modern science and biology; because he is a monster. I don’t like the idea of Godzilla, or most of his coworkers being dinosaurs or anything remotely scientific or easily identifiable.

There’s been Godzilla movies that do liken him, and other monsters to real world creatures, and that’s fine, but it’s never gotten to the point that’s crossed the line for me. G14 and Shin (ironically enough) came close, but both inserted their own mystique and mythos into the series in order to keep things interesting and clever.

Synapsid, the word itself, bothers me. A four legged Godzilla, or one that is even in mammalian in nature doesn’t disturb me. That’s what a synapsid is anyways, right? But the instant you use real word scientific words, I zone out. Call me a Luddite.

I’m fine with the Rodan creatures in Singular Point.

TLDR; Monsters in the Godzilla franchise should always be special and magical. Trying to box them into easily identifiable categories, annoys me and feels like a sanitization of something wonderful and fantastical.

I see. That's a fair preference, it just isn't mine. As a science enthusiast since birth, giving Godzilla and co. some halfway decent attempts at a scientific underpinnings has the opposite effect for me as it does you. Anyone can go "oh it's a giant monster that can't be explained by science," and indeed most media does, or gives it some vague radiation- or nuclear-based origin. Trying to make your monster a believably functioning organism is a huge undertaking, and I appreciate the stuff that does try to do that most because that work is hard, and if done right the result is a creature that feels like it could really jump off the screen and exist in our world. Real life animals are incredibly complex and we're discovering new things about them constantly, we just found out platypuses glow blue under UV light for crying out loud! The more we learn, the more amazing even the creatures most people disregard as "boring" prove to be, and I don't mind a bit of that getting in my Godzilla.

As a matter of fact, I'm often disappointed when I see a new creature or monster in fiction and all I get is "it's a mysterious being," because it comes off as a missed opportunity for worldbuilding at best and lazy at worst. The artbook for King Kong 2005 is still one of my favorite pieces of monster media because it takes such an expansive and detailed look at the environment and inhabitants of Skull Island, and it's all stuff they didn't strictly have to do but they did. The MonsterVerse isn't quite as good at believable monster biology(Why in the heck did they have to say the Mire Squid has rotating fan blade jaws? Rotors aren't biomechanically possible in large organisms), but it gets close enough, and closer than anything else in the movies I can think of.

Being a Synapsid just means (most notably) that the animal has a temporal fenestra, a big hole in the back of the skull that might have served as the anchor point for jaw muscles. All mammals and things like Dimetrodon are synapsids, not just things that walk on four legs or have fur, so there's really a lot of wiggle room to work with under that classification.

TL;DR: Applying speculative biology to Godzilla is fine by me because real life animals are incredibly complex creatures and I find that complexity endlessly fascinating. Godzilla movies can swing both ways and I'm fine with anything, but that's the angle I personally enjoy most.

[LegendZilla]

I'm betting it's the same reason people were hating on Singular Point's Rodan design being pterosaur-influenced, because it's been done in the fandom lots of times already and is as such boring now. For whatever reason popular things from a franchise's fandom making their way into the franchise itself is usually met with harsh criticism, I get it to an extent but still it seems a bit knee-jerk more often than not.

Not really, though you’re right about it being a knee-jerk reaction. I’ve probably stated this multiple times on this forum, but to me most of the 怪獣/Kaiju should be literally strange beasts. I like Godzilla because he is specifically in context of the original film and most of the series, a strange creature that is not easily identifiable and in many ways contradicts modern science and biology; because he is a monster. I don’t like the idea of Godzilla, or most of his coworkers being dinosaurs or anything remotely scientific or easily identifiable.

There’s been Godzilla movies that do liken him, and other monsters to real world creatures, and that’s fine, but it’s never gotten to the point that’s crossed the line for me. G14 and Shin (ironically enough) came close, but both inserted their own mystique and mythos into the series in order to keep things interesting and clever.

Synapsid, the word itself, bothers me. A four legged Godzilla, or one that is even in mammalian in nature doesn’t disturb me. That’s what a synapsid is anyways, right? But the instant you use real word scientific words, I zone out. Call me a Luddite.

I’m fine with the Rodan creatures in Singular Point.

TLDR; Monsters in the Godzilla franchise should always be special and magical. Trying to box them into easily identifiable categories, annoys me and feels like a sanitization of something wonderful and fantastical.

I see. That's a fair preference, it just isn't mine. As a science enthusiast since birth, giving Godzilla and co. some halfway decent attempts at a scientific underpinnings has the opposite effect for me as it does you. Anyone can go "oh it's a giant monster that can't be explained by science," and indeed most media does, or gives it some vague radiation- or nuclear-based origin. Trying to make your monster a believably functioning organism is a huge undertaking, and I appreciate the stuff that does try to do that most because that work is hard, and if done right the result is a creature that feels like it could really jump off the screen and exist in our world. Real life animals are incredibly complex and we're discovering new things about them constantly, we just found out platypuses glow blue under UV light for crying out loud! The more we learn, the more amazing even the creatures most people disregard as "boring" prove to be, and I don't mind a bit of that getting in my Godzilla.

As a matter of fact, I'm often disappointed when I see a new creature or monster in fiction and all I get is "it's a mysterious being," because it comes off as a missed opportunity for worldbuilding at best and lazy at worst. The artbook for King Kong 2005 is still one of my favorite pieces of monster media because it takes such an expansive and detailed look at the environment and inhabitants of Skull Island, and it's all stuff they didn't strictly have to do but they did. The MonsterVerse isn't quite as good at believable monster biology(Why in the heck did they have to say the Mire Squid has rotating fan blade jaws? Rotors aren't biomechanically possible in large organisms), but it gets close enough, and closer than anything else in the movies I can think of.

Being a Synapsid just means (most notably) that the animal has a temporal fenestra, a big hole in the back of the skull that might have served as the anchor point for jaw muscles. All mammals and things like Dimetrodon are synapsids, not just things that walk on four legs or have fur, so there's really a lot of wiggle room to work with under that classification.

TL;DR: Applying speculative biology to Godzilla is fine by me because real life animals are incredibly complex creatures and I find that complexity endlessly fascinating. Godzilla movies can swing both ways and I'm fine with anything, but that's the angle I personally enjoy most.

I'm with Gomi on this one. If you're gonna cry over people trying to have fun with their imagination by applying speculative science to fictional monsters, i.e Godzilla being a synapsid, might as well do the same for imagning Kong as a Pongid.

[CrimsonBloodX]

I'm fine with it as long as it stays only in fan art or fan made projects. A synapsid Godzilla is not something that should be in official films and TV shows.

[LegendZilla]

I'm fine with it as long as it stays only in fan art or fan made projects. A synapsid Godzilla is not something that should be in official films and TV shows.

Could you care to explain why? Is the very idea itself tainted by the fact it originates within fan art?

[CrimsonBloodX]

I'm fine with it as long as it stays only in fan art or fan made projects. A synapsid Godzilla is not something that should be in official films and TV shows.

Could you care to explain why? Does the fact the idea originates among fan art taint it?

Because a change in design like that is too much for me personally. At least the 1998 Godzilla looks somewhat like Godzilla and Shin Godzilla was terrifying in a badass way, but a synapsid redesign? That's just going too far. Having the fans experiment and come up with a new look for Godzilla is fine by me, but I rather not have something like a synapsid Godzilla be an actual thing in movies and TV shows.

[LegendZilla]

I'm fine with it as long as it stays only in fan art or fan made projects. A synapsid Godzilla is not something that should be in official films and TV shows.

Could you care to explain why? Does the fact the idea originates among fan art taint it?

Because a change in design like that is too much for me personally. At least the 1998 Godzilla looks somewhat like Godzilla and Shin Godzilla was terrifying in a badass way, but a synapsid redesign? That's just going too far. Having the fans experiment and come up with a new look for Godzilla is fine by me, but I rather not have something like a synapsid Godzilla be an actual thing in movies and TV shows.

Don’t worry, making him a synapsid would by no means lead to a drastic change in design. It would just be there to explain the character’s quasi-mammalian features as I stated before. It won’t require a change in design as much as *cough* making him a plant-based creature.

If you still have doubts, perhaps this will ease things a little : https://www.deviantart.com/xxhxclionxx/ ... -190549582