The Godzilla Series is Not "low-budget" (mostly)

[edgaguirus]

From what I can tell, he/she is defining low budget or camp as a film that's pure entertainment, without real social, historical, or political commentary. That argument holds little water, though. Many Godzilla films have made comments on issues such as the environment, capitalism, etc., and still been fun movies.

[Lesko]

While I do agree the series gets a lot of unnecessary flak as "low budget" the period of actual lower budget Godzilla films we get airing reruns over the various decades and being depicted on MST3K which is a series that almost exclusively goes after lower budget B movies nonetheless put in the public consciousness that reputation. Is it fair? Certainly not, but regardless that is why they are labelled that way. However with the MV releases and likely future entries on the way I think we are slowly on the road of changing Godzilla's reputation as "low budget B children's flicks." The MV helped a lot with that. Yeah they aren't going to be acclaimed by critics or anything but they seem to have gotten a lot of respect in the public consciousness that I am very happy to have seen happen. Just be patient because I am optimistic we are in the middle of all of this being turned around.

[Major sssspielberg!]

Comparisons to Transformers and Adam West aside, I think this is a valid and interesting point of conversation. I don't think I've ever been satisfied with a western critical assessment of Godzilla (besides "Gojira 1954 is about nuclear weapons") which frequently does interpret them as "B-movies" or "cheap."
I actually think the MCU is a fair comparison; a well oiled production machine that frequently attracts top talent and hits the zeitgeist just the right way. Nobody would call an Avengers movie a "B-movie."
Edit: my particular hangup is regarding the Showa films, which as pointed out much more eruditely above were absolutely well-budgeted and produced.

[MogeGoji1994]

Comparisons to Transformers and Adam West aside, I think this is a valid and interesting point of conversation. I don't think I've ever been satisfied with a western critical assessment of Godzilla (besides "Gojira 1954 is about nuclear weapons") which frequently does interpret them as "B-movies" or "cheap."
I actually think the MCU is a fair comparison; a well oiled production machine that frequently attracts top talent and hits the zeitgeist just the right way. Nobody would call an Avengers movie a "B-movie."
Edit: my particular hangup is regarding the Showa films, which as pointed out much more eruditely above were absolutely well-budgeted and produced.

Forgive me for not understanding, but do you mean that Godzilla also hit the cultural zeitgeist?

[Major sssspielberg!]

Forgive me for not understanding, but do you mean that Godzilla also hit the cultural zeitgeist?

Yeah, that's exactly it! Back in the 60s with the first kaiju boom.

[MogeGoji1994]

[/quote]

Yeah, that's exactly it! Back in the 60s with the first kaiju boom.
[/quote]

Would you mind expanding on that? I'm not too versed in the genuine, actual culture of Japan in the 60s so I'm very curious what you have to say!

[Jetty_Jags]

I'm not the most informed so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Godzilla and Toho changed the entertainment environment of Japan. It trailblazed a new interest in the Tokusatsu genre that would have long lasting impacts on Japanese media. The most apparent influence being the numerous competitor kaiju flicks (five studios released kaiju films in the year 1967), but this phenomenon would also bleed over to the small screen. Tsuburaya's Ultra series, starting with Ultra Q would have a tremendous impact on the Japanese television programs. Without it, we probably wouldn't have seen the likes of Zone fighter, Kamen Rider, Japanese spiderman, or Super Sentai. Each of these with their own respective influences on other genres. To put it another way, the highest box office attendance of any G-film of all time is still King Kong vs Godzilla.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I'm not the most informed so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Godzilla and Toho changed the entertainment environment of Japan. It trailblazed a new interest in the Tokusatsu genre that would have long lasting impacts on Japanese media. The most apparent influence being the numerous competitor kaiju flicks (five studios released kaiju films in the year 1967), but this phenomenon would also bleed over to the small screen. Tsuburaya's Ultra series, starting with Ultra Q would have a tremendous impact on the Japanese television programs. Without it, we probably wouldn't have seen the likes of Zone fighter, Kamen Rider, Japanese spiderman, or Super Sentai. Each of these with their own respective influences on other genres. To put it another way, the highest box office attendance of any G-film of all time is still King Kong vs Godzilla.

Yep, which is why in the context of Japanese filmmaking it's a bit insincere to label them "low budget films". They're within the context of Japanese film making big budget studio flicks. I think many people have made good counterpoints, and there's been some good discussion, but all this thread was originally was to put a pin in a stereotype that the Godzilla films are inherently low budget films.

[cloverfan98]

I feel like the majority of critics who call the series low budget just naturally assume that because the effects are not photo realistic it must be because they didn't have the money to make them look "better" rather than it being a creative or stylistic choice.

[Jetty_Jags]

I feel like the majority of critics who call the series low budget just naturally assume that because the effects are not photo realistic it must be because they didn't have the money to make them look "better" rather than it being a creative or stylistic choice.

I think at least in the modern environment (I can't talk about older critics although I imagine things like varying dub qualities probably influenced their poor reception), cgi plays a massive role in the lack of appreciation for these films. Outside of animation and stop motion (which also receives a similar bias, albeit not as strongly as tokusatsu), there wasn't a way to present these kinds of stories. You simply couldn't have a movie about a giant monster, no matter the merits of the work its in. It's easy to say wow these movies look like garbage when a computer can create worlds that people cannot visually differentiate from reality's. But back then, there was no other way to show this. There is a spectacle to it, its just not appreciated anymore.

[edgaguirus]

And sometimes the older effects can look better than modern cgi.

[cloverfan98]

I feel like the majority of critics who call the series low budget just naturally assume that because the effects are not photo realistic it must be because they didn't have the money to make them look "better" rather than it being a creative or stylistic choice.

I think at least in the modern environment (I can't talk about older critics although I imagine things like varying dub qualities probably influenced their poor reception), cgi plays a massive role in the lack of appreciation for these films. Outside of animation and stop motion (which also receives a similar bias, albeit not as strongly as tokusatsu), there wasn't a way to present these kinds of stories. You simply couldn't have a movie about a giant monster, no matter the merits of the work its in. It's easy to say wow these movies look like garbage when a computer can create worlds that people cannot visually differentiate from reality's. But back then, there was no other way to show this. There is a spectacle to it, its just not appreciated anymore.

I agree to an extent but look at all the pre CGI features from Hollywood that received unanimous praise like star wars, close encounters, etc.

[Jetty_Jags]

I agree to an extent but look at all the pre CGI features from Hollywood that received unanimous praise like star wars, close encounters, etc.

Are you talking about modern day reception of these films, or the reception of these films at the time? If it's modern day, I'd argue that a lot of the cultural momentum is based on nostalgia. Not that I don't agree that the effects in such works are outstanding, but there is a culture built around the appreciation of practical effects for those films (and rejecting the hollywood trend pushing towards cgi), and those who are not inundated in that perspective are often verbal in their opposition of that philosophy. It's not uncommon for those of younger generation to say things like, "I hope x is remade with modern day graphics". I think the Godzilla franchise is also at a disadvantage because of the preconceived perception of its quality. While locally somewhat deserved, we all know these criticisms are purely absurd when generalized to the entire franchise.

But, even as I'm typing this I'm rethinking about my argument, and I think I do agree with your point too, IDK, I'll need to ponder some more.

[Major sssspielberg!]

"I hope x is remade with modern day graphics".

Words or images cannot express the deep shudder in my spine, nor sadness in my soul when I hear this phrase.

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

The movies still look great. Yeah, there’s some hiccups, but unless you’re pausing at every opportunity like “is this a fuckup, that doesn’t look right, that piece of debris wouldn’t fall that way”, even the earliest movies still hold up real well. Hell of a lot better than a lot of their American contemporaries which were “high budget” at the time do.

It’s not until the Millenium era that the movies have any sort of “cheap” feel, but even aside from janky-ass CGI at points, those still look fine imo.

[szmigiel]

If your only criteria is a films budget , then 90% of the movies made in a given year are low budget when compared to the big budget movies of that same year. Was Star Wars low budget? It only cost 11 million, while Close Encounters of the Third Kind was $20 million and A Bridge Too Far was $22 million so if you are just looking at numbers it sure seems that way. Jurassic Park cost $63 million and Schindler’s List cost $24 Million, no one calls Schindler’s List a low budget movie, but it is a third of the budget of the years blockbuster.

Budget is a poor qualifier for a quality of a film. Just because more money is spent does not make a film better or worse then another film. Another good example is Star Trek the Motion Picture had a budget of $35 Million and Star Trek II the Wrath of Khan had a budget of $12 million, but people don't say the 1st movie had three times the budget so it has to be better.

It is also funny that DB_Cooper compared Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind which lead to the creation of Studio Ghibli. Was also the highest-ranking film in a 2006 poll of the greatest animations conducted at the Japan Media Arts Festival, voted by 80,000 attendees, over 20 years after it was released. To the Black Cauldron which is most famous for almost killed Disney animated features. As a good example of comparing budgets.

[Breakdown]

People really don't understand the blood, sweat and tears that went into making the miniature sets. Some of the techniques they used were straight up genius.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

Lets looks at the supposed "low budget" Japanese films vs the MonsterVerse. Yeah the special effects are infinitesimally better but no amount of budget changes the fact that in almost every other aspect its not like they're anymore well acted or better written than the Japanese films. District 9 is a great example of a truly low budget movie (at least by Hollywood standards) that looks just as good, if not better, than anything the MonsterVerse has done with over 5 times D9's budget. The average person would look at D9 and probably think it cost near as much as G14 did. To them it would be a big budget feature when comparatively its far from it. To most people the quality of the special effects is the only thing that denotes a big budget genre film compared to a low budget one. The actually budget oft times has nothing to do with it. Hell most "big budget" horror films are incredibly low budget by Hollywood standards. The 2018 Halloween reboot cost roughly around the same as Shin Godzilla. I bet you'd still have people who would probably consider Shin Godzilla a low budget film and yet fight you tooth and nail that the Halloween reboot was a big budget production.