Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

[Terasawa]

Still a better argument than saying Shin is better than the Monsterverse because it was made in Japan.

What's wrong with this? I would absolutely disagree with someone who said the Monsterverse films were the best Godzilla films because they were made in Hollywood, but I wouldn't think it's wrong if it truly represents that person's interests.

Added in 6 minutes 21 seconds:

What is the special thing you feel the franchise has lost exactly? One can argue Godzilla was always in mainstream Anerican pop culture it just wasn't as you said Star Wars or Marvel ect.

Godzilla could (and did) occupy a part of American pop culture without ever being mainstream. Just because Godzilla movies were accessible, Godzilla memorabilia was produced, and certain characters, situations, and other general aspects of the films were recognizable doesn't mean Godzilla was part of the mainstream. Most "nerd" stuff wasn't popular until recent decades, and Godzilla has always been a niche interest even among nerds.

[Legion1979]

And who said Shin is better than the Monsterverse because it was made in Japan? Is THAT what people are getting out of my comment? That I'm simply saying "Japanese Godzilla good, American Godzilla bad"?

Ugh.

[Mac Daddy MM]

Still a better argument than saying Shin is better than the Monsterverse because it was made in Japan.

What's wrong with this? I would absolutely disagree with someone who said the Monsterverse films were the best Godzilla films because they were made in Hollywood, but I wouldn't think it's wrong if it truly represents that person's interests.

I mean, this WOULD reopen the whole "fans only dislike KoTM and GvK because they're non-Japan" "debates" we've had before.

[godjacob]

Since we are on this American vs. Japan hot topics for Unpopular Opinions, I'll just toss this: I don't hate the score for the American King Kong vs. Godzilla, and might kinda like it actually.

[UltramanGoji]

Nothing Legion or Spirit said even come close to gatekeeping or hipster-ish "popular stuff sucks" mentalities. It's not about keeping people out of the fandom (which is what gatekeeping is) or decrying the new stuff. It's about a specific feeling of niche-ness that no longer exists because of how widespread the franchise has become. It's not a qualitative statement on anything it's done in recent years.

As a younger fan (under 30) who didn't really live through a period where Japan was actively producing new Godzilla movies (at least, to an extent where I knew it was happening and could be excited for it), there was a genuinely different feeling surrounding the franchise in the pre-MonsterVerse/Shin years. Godzilla was extensively niche, maybe not necessarily as an individual character but as a total package franchise. To find a piece of Godzilla merchandise in any kind of American store was a genuine holy grail, a far cry from today where I can walk into Target and pick up a Gorosaurus figure for example. There was a unique and wholly remarkable richness to discovering a Godzilla item in the most unlikeliest of places; it was this intensely personal sensation of accomplishment: this was your franchise and you can't believe it's here out in the open like this. It's the same kind of feeling many had upon seeing King Ghidorah, Mothra, and Rodan announced and revealed for KOTM, something that was almost entirely a personal experience is now being shared by a whole new generation.

With as much as the brand has evolved to become a second-tier popular culture phenomenon these days (to absolutely no detriment whatsoever), it's eroded away that niche status almost entirely. It's still really cool to see Godzilla stuff everywhere now but it'll never have that same effect as finding a random Godzilla item during the Wilderness Era of the franchise when Toho wasn't making movies and merchandise and video games were the only thing keeping the brand going.

[JAGzilla]

There was a time when Godzilla wasn't a Hollywood franchise. He wasn't a multi-hundred-million-dollar crowd-pleasing summer blockbuster loaded down with CGI and your favorite stars from Breaking Bad and Stranger Things. His movies came from a foreign country and starred actors the West doesn't know and were made using effects techniques Hollywood never mastered and ultimately threw away. There was a very different feel to them, they were distinctly unAmerican, and that's gone now, probably forever. That's part of what is being missed here.

[miguelnuva]

And who said Shin is better than the Monsterverse because it was made in Japan? Is THAT what people are getting out of my comment? That I'm simply saying "Japanese Godzilla good, American Godzilla bad"?

Ugh.

A Godzilla youtuber said it, I'm saying your argument is better because you are providing evidence to back up your feelings on the matter.

Added in 3 minutes 14 seconds:

Still a better argument than saying Shin is better than the Monsterverse because it was made in Japan.

What's wrong with this? I would absolutely disagree with someone who said the Monsterverse films were the best Godzilla films because they were made in Hollywood, but I wouldn't think it's wrong if it truly represents that person's interests.

There is a lot wrong with it. Everyone has their own opinion but shouldn't dismissed art just because it was made in a different place. I don't dislike Shin because it was made in Japan or like Kotm because it's made in Hollywood, I like or dislike these films because I watched them and formed an opinion.

Added in 1 minute 41 seconds:

There was a time when Godzilla wasn't a Hollywood franchise. He wasn't a multi-hundred-million-dollar crowd-pleasing summer blockbuster loaded down with CGI and your favorite stars from Breaking Bad and Stranger Things. His movies came from a foreign country and starred actors the West doesn't know and were made using effects techniques Hollywood never mastered and ultimately threw away. There was a very different feel to them, they were distinctly unAmerican, and that's gone now, probably forever. That's part of what is being missed here.

If that feeling is gone it's going to be because of Toho and Japan. Toho made Shin and they might be making a film now. It's premature to say that feeling on how these films were made is over.

[Legion1979]

With as much as the brand has evolved to become a second-tier popular culture phenomenon these days (to absolutely no detriment whatsoever), it's eroded away that niche status almost entirely. It's still really cool to see Godzilla stuff everywhere now but it'll never have that same effect as finding a random Godzilla item during the Wilderness Era of the franchise when Toho wasn't making movies and merchandise and video games were the only thing keeping the brand going.

The 90s (basically everything before G98) was even crazier. Because Toho WAS putting Godzilla films out on a yearly basis that were actually SUCCESSFUL and Bandai was pumping out all sorts of toys. But the Heisei films (save Biollante) were unknown here. To most people the Godzilla series had ended with Godzilla 1995. We had the Trendmasters figures but those existed in a void all their own, and were available during a time frame where the target audience of kids had no idea who Battra or Space Godzilla even were.

Godzilla truly felt like an underground thing then. You simply could not see the Japanese versions of the movies unless you knew a bootleg dealer. Same with the Bandai toys. G-Fan was just getting started and G-Fest still wasn't even known by that name. Plus of course, the internet was barely a thing.

It was different then. It was still somewhat like that in the 2000s. It's NOTHING like that now.

And VERY well said, JAGzilla. miquelnuva seems to be suggesting that a possibility exists that a future Toho Godzilla might recapture the spirit and technique of the older films. That's not likely. They've moved on from practical effects. They don't even have a dedicated effects department. The Toho of the 1950s through the mid 2000s is gone. They are not going to make Godzilla movies the way they used to. Films like Shin and the Monsterverse ARE our future. Final Wars was the end of an era. That ain't coming back, M'Gee.

[Mac Daddy MM]

There was a time when Godzilla wasn't a Hollywood franchise. He wasn't a multi-hundred-million-dollar crowd-pleasing summer blockbuster loaded down with CGI and your favorite stars from Breaking Bad and Stranger Things. His movies came from a foreign country and starred actors the West doesn't know and were made using effects techniques Hollywood never mastered and ultimately threw away. There was a very different feel to them, they were distinctly unAmerican, and that's gone now, probably forever. That's part of what is being missed here.

I would understand your feelings/frustrations. But you're still getting Toho's Godzilla. That's not stopping what's so ever. I'ma simply post here what I sent in a private DM a lil bit ago:

There isn't anything wrong with not caring for the MonsterVerse movies. Cut and dry, they are just Hollywood blockbusters. They don't have that "heart" that the Toho films do, and that's a deal breaker for some. Growing up in the 90s and reaching "maturity" in the 2000s, the one thing I always wanted as a child was to see the spectacle of Godzilla in big budget, especially after the failure of Godzilla 1998. When Transformers came out in 2007, I was 18 and I remember talking to a few (in which only a few of those few are still around) that we'd never get Godzilla's day. In 2009, when Star Trek was rebooted, I said the same thing again. Then, of course, Iron Man and such happened. And then, in 2010... When the rumors started to go about the Hollywood interest, everything changed.

I think that's where a lot of the MonsterVerse fans and love really comes from. We know these aren't the heart and soul of the franchise. They'll never carry that same magic a movie like Godzilla '54, Mothra vs. Godzilla, or hell, even movies like Godzilla 1985 and Biollante have, but they have that grand, amazing spectacle that we could only dream about. And it's giving us a variety of "flavors", more so than Michael Bay's Transformers. It's hard to find any fan that doesn't like how at least ONE of the three MV Godzilla movies "look".

But inherently, there's nothing wrong with just liking the Showa era, or liking it more than Heisei or any other. Or vice versa. So long as one isn't a prick about it.

[Legion1979]

Yeah we're still getting Toho's Godzilla, MM. But whatever we get out of Toho, it's not going to be what we got from 1954 - 2004. Those days are long over. Shin Godzilla, the Polygon trilogy and Singular Point have made it clear they have their own agenda for what today's Godzilla is going to be. And it's not what we enjoyed for the first 50 years. For some people, that's a shame becuase Toho's modern Godzillas are such a different take than anything they did before. Old school Godzilla is gone, and I don't know how you'd argue against that.

[Mac Daddy MM]

Yeah we're still getting Toho's Godzilla, MM. But whatever we get out of Toho, it's not going to be what we got from 1954 - 2004. Those days are long over. Shin Godzilla, the Polygon trilogy and Singular Point have made it clear they have their own agenda for what today's Godzilla is going to be. And it's not what we enjoyed for the first 50 years. For some people, that's a shame becuase Toho's modern Godzillas are such a different take than anything they did before. Old school Godzilla is gone, and I don't know how you'd argue against that.

I'm not arguing against anything. You're still getting a Japanese Godzilla, which is the point in which I'm coming into this.

[Breakdown]

What's stopping them from just making an all-practical Godzilla film, even a short? They've done it with the GvsH anniversary short, and that one a while back with the replica '54 suit.

[Terasawa]

Everyone has their own opinion but shouldn't dismissed art just because it was made in a different place.

Well, it's not just a matter of geography. The Hollywood and Japanese film industries produce very different pieces of art and entertainment. This has always been true, but I think it's especially true today, with Hollywood films costing hundreds of millions of dollars (far more than Japanese films cost to produce). That doesn't even account for the cultural and aesthetic attitudes that inform the artists that make these films in Japan and Hollywood.

For example, I can't stand the modern Hollywood blockbuster; it's a mode of filmmaking that just doesn't appeal to me on any appreciable level. On the other hand, I very much enamored with Golden Age Japanese cinema -- how they were made, the people who made the films, how they look and sound... I think the Godzilla films made during that period (1950s - early 1960s) are --at least in part-- better than the Hollywood Godzilla movies because I simply think the artistic trends, techniques, and personnel who made the former are better than the latter.

I'm far too depressed to muster the energy to debate this (or much else) further, but here's what I'll say: I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the statement "Shin Godzilla is better because it was made in Japan." Only when you take it purely at face value (i.e. without a shred of context) does it seem totally absolute and dishonest, but I don't think someone holding that opinion is matter-of-factly wrong. And even if someone's opinion is that Japanese or American films are better solely because of where they're made, well, that's still someone's opinion. I don't care how they arrived at it because it's such an innocuous thing to have an opinion about it. Who cares?

[miguelnuva]

Yeah we're still getting Toho's Godzilla, MM. But whatever we get out of Toho, it's not going to be what we got from 1954 - 2004. Those days are long over. Shin Godzilla, the Polygon trilogy and Singular Point have made it clear they have their own agenda for what today's Godzilla is going to be. And it's not what we enjoyed for the first 50 years. For some people, that's a shame becuase Toho's modern Godzillas are such a different take than anything they did before. Old school Godzilla is gone, and I don't know how you'd argue against that.

I could be wrong but Jagzilla and you seemed like you were mentioning different things. I though Jag was saying Godzilla won't be the same in a post MV er due to it having been a big budget American franchise where as you Legion seem to be mentioning it won't he the sane because Tokusatsu , suitmation effects ect are gone which yes I agree FW was the end of that era.

If I got Jag's meaning wrong I very possibly could because I took the comment as The Monsterverse is the reason that era ks over not Toho themselves being the reason.

I do however think Toho can come close to a classic feel if they try. Assuming the new kaiju movie they are working on now is Godzilla and based on the director's work he is going for a Showa feel.

Toho goes threw phases all the time so we should take a wait and see approach.

[Legion1979]

Yeah we're still getting Toho's Godzilla, MM. But whatever we get out of Toho, it's not going to be what we got from 1954 - 2004. Those days are long over. Shin Godzilla, the Polygon trilogy and Singular Point have made it clear they have their own agenda for what today's Godzilla is going to be. And it's not what we enjoyed for the first 50 years. For some people, that's a shame becuase Toho's modern Godzillas are such a different take than anything they did before. Old school Godzilla is gone, and I don't know how you'd argue against that.

I'm not arguing against anything. You're still getting a Japanese Godzilla, which is the point in which I'm coming into this.

But...no one is saying we aren't still getting Godzilla films. But nothing we've gotten from Toho since 2016 is ANYTHING like the older films. That combined with the Monsterverse represents a very different era of Godzilla to some people, away from the practical effects and suitmation and the simplicity of it. Additionally, to Toho, Godzilla is now an international BRAND, and they're treating him like one. Some of us just miss how it used to be.

[Terasawa]

Showa feel

Which is so imprecise that it could mean anything. For example, Godzilla fans remarked that KotM and GFW felt like Showa Godzilla films; I thought they only superficially reminiscent of those movies, at best.

I think this is the point some are trying to make: for some of us it's not simply a matter of where the films are made or even what techniques are used to bring to monsters to life. There are so many components involved in filmmaking that it's impossible to define an entire mode of film to a couple of traits like that.

[JAGzilla]

EDIT: I haven't read the last three or four posts yet, but@MM:

But it's a new Japanese Godzilla. A CGI Japanese Godzilla, trying to match America even as the movie criticizes America. Being from the same country as tradition doesn't automatically make something traditional.

For full disclosure, though, I like Shin, and the Monsterverse, and the anime have their selling points. I mock and nitpick and sneer, but I don't mean most of it. We're in an exciting new era and I'm appropriately excited. There's a lot of fresh new creative boldness coming out of this modern content, and I appreciate and support it. The CGI, when used well, brings visual possibilities practical effects simply can't achieve, and the Monsterverse is doing great things with it. I'm happy and on board.

But it's not what I grew up with, and I still miss the old days.

[Legion1979]

Terasawa hits it on the money with the word "superficial". Final Wars and KOTM feature lots of classic monsters. But that doesn't make either of those movies feel like Showa films. In fact, KOTM feels far more like a Heisei film.

[JAGzilla]

KOTM clearly takes a lot of influence from GvD specifically, and not just because of Burning Godzilla. The Monarch characters constantly spouting exposition and narrating the monster action feels very similar.

[miguelnuva]

The Monsterverse as a whole to me feels like Showa Godzilla going through Heisei like stories personally.