Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

[Spuro]

[Legion1979]

Oh stop it, Spuro. This isn't about spoiling someone's fun.

He's flat our saying that - as a fact - the original Mothra film was intended by the filmmakers in 1961 to be part of a greater shared Toho kaiju universe, back when Toho didn't do those things in their films aside from the first two Godzilla movies.

Man, the Heisei films and the MV really broke fans' ability to accept the older films as standalone entities didn't they?

[miguelnuva]

Oh stop it, Spuro. This isn't about spoiling someone's fun.

He's flat our saying that - as a fact - the original Mothra film was intended by the filmmakers in 1961 to be part of a greater shared Toho kaiju universe, back when Toho didn't do those things in their films aside from the first two Godzilla movies.

Man, the Heisei films and the MV really broke fans' ability to accept the older films as standalone entities didn't they?

In 1961 Mothra was not connected to Godzilla but Toho themselves later decided to try and convince fans the Mothra Godzilla fights is the same one from the 61 film.

Not a lot of people here were alive in the 60's let alone Japan so it is much easier to believe the showa films are connected do to heresay, toho rectcons ect.

[Ivo-goji]

Why, because they reused a prop? And made a comment about other monsters existing in that universe?

If other monsters exist in the world of Mothra 61, and Toho owned Godzilla and Rodan, then the other monsters referred to in Mothra 61 are Godzilla and Rodan. That is as purely objective as any interpretation could possibly be.

The idea that the creators weren't thinking of a shared setting when they wrote that dialogue is too ridiculous for me to believe. It's not like it was this unknown concept that no one had ever attempted before, the Universal Horror monsters had already done the same thing 18 years before Mothra was made and Toho execs certainly knew about that.

So that connects it to all the other Toho effects films that came before it?

No, just those specific films (G54, GRA, Rodan, BIOS), at least at that point in time.

But later on when Toho started marketing their special effects films as double/triple features in the Toho Champion Matsuri so stuff like Mothra 61 and Latitude Zero would be screened side by side, then it really do be that way.

I genuinely cannot wrap my mind around this mindset of dismantling the shared universe when it was taken completely at face value not many years ago.

Like these guys seriously sat down to make Frankenstein vs Baragon and said "Ok, we are going to create an anti-nuclear-bomb-themed giant monster movie that is completely self contained and unrelated to our other anti-nuclear-bomb-themed giant monster movies, despite taking for granted core conceits from those movies, and also it will have a Giant Octopus like the one from King Kong vs Godzilla for no reason"? People don't make decisions like that.

[darthzilla99]

Why, because they reused a prop? And made a comment about other monsters existing in that universe?

If other monsters exist in the world of Mothra 61, and Toho owned Godzilla and Rodan, then the other monsters referred to in Mothra 61 are Godzilla and Rodan. That is as purely objective as any interpretation could possibly be.

The idea that the creators weren't thinking of a shared setting when they wrote that dialogue is too ridiculous for me to believe. It's not like it was this unknown concept that no one had ever attempted before, the Universal Horror monsters had already done the same thing 18 years before Mothra was made and Toho execs certainly knew about that.

So that connects it to all the other Toho effects films that came before it?

No, just those specific films (G54, GRA, Rodan, BIOS), at least at that point in time.

But later on when Toho started marketing their special effects films as double/triple features in the Toho Champion Matsuri so stuff like Mothra 61 and Latitude Zero would be screened side by side, then it really do be that way.

I genuinely cannot wrap my mind around this mindset of dismantling the shared universe when it was taken completely at face value not many years ago.

Like these guys seriously sat down to make Frankenstein vs Baragon and said "Ok, we are going to create an anti-nuclear-bomb-themed giant monster movie that is completely self contained and unrelated to our other anti-nuclear-bomb-themed giant monster movies, despite taking for granted core conceits from those movies, and also it will have a Giant Octopus like the one from King Kong vs Godzilla for no reason"? People don't make decisions like that.

Just because Mothra says that Japan dealt with monsters before doesn't mean it's referencing Godzilla, Rodan, Varan, Anguirus, and other toho kaiju. It's as simple as offscreen no name kaiju.

[Legion1979]

Why, because they reused a prop? And made a comment about other monsters existing in that universe?

If other monsters exist in the world of Mothra 61, and Toho owned Godzilla and Rodan, then the other monsters referred to in Mothra 61 are Godzilla and Rodan. That is as purely objective as any interpretation could possibly be.

The idea that the creators weren't thinking of a shared setting when they wrote that dialogue is too ridiculous for me to believe. It's not like it was this unknown concept that no one had ever attempted before, the Universal Horror monsters had already done the same thing 18 years before Mothra was made and Toho execs certainly knew about that.

So that connects it to all the other Toho effects films that came before it?

No, just those specific films (G54, GRA, Rodan, BIOS), at least at that point in time.

But later on when Toho started marketing their special effects films as double/triple features in the Toho Champion Matsuri so stuff like Mothra 61 and Latitude Zero would be screened side by side, then it really do be that way.

I genuinely cannot wrap my mind around this mindset of dismantling the shared universe when it was taken completely at face value not many years ago.

Like these guys seriously sat down to make Frankenstein vs Baragon and said "Ok, we are going to create an anti-nuclear-bomb-themed giant monster movie that is completely self contained and unrelated to our other anti-nuclear-bomb-themed giant monster movies, despite taking for granted core conceits from those movies, and also it will have a Giant Octopus like the one from King Kong vs Godzilla for no reason"? People don't make decisions like that.

Just because Mothra says that Japan dealt with monsters before doesn't mean it's referencing Godzilla, Rodan, Varan, Anguirus, and other toho kaiju. It's as simple as offscreen no name kaiju.

THANK YOU!

Ivo-Goji, just stop. That last paragraph about Frankenstein Conquers the World in particular is utterly ridiculous, because the people at Toho absolutely DID go into many (if not most) of these movies as self-contained entities. The writer of "Frankenstein" (Takeshi Kimura) didn't write any previous films featuring atomic monsters, so he wouldn't have referenced them. It's a stand alone film. People even seem shocked that a monster like Baragon exists. And a giant octopus is a giant octopus. You're not seriously implying it was intended to be the same one from KKvsG are you?

I just can't sometimes....

(Also, can someone PLEASE point me to dialogue in the original Mothra that mentions other monsters?)

[Voyager]

How would have Oodako from KKvG ended up in the middle of the Japanese countryside? lmao.

[godjacob]

How would have Oodako from KKvG ended up in the middle of the Japanese countryside? lmao.

To be fair, it has a habit of randomly showing up in places. It randomly appeared by a mountain/forrest area in the alternate ending of Frankenstein vs. Baragon.

[Ivo-goji]

Just because Mothra says that Japan dealt with monsters before doesn't mean it's referencing Godzilla, Rodan, Varan, Anguirus, and other toho kaiju. It's as simple as offscreen no name kaiju.

To me inventing off screen kaiju is a bigger leap in logic than assuming Toho's existing kaiju were intended. That still would be true even if Mothra never appeared in subsequent movies like Mothra vs Godzilla and GTTHM; but knowing that Mothra did go on to star alongside other Toho kaiju anyway makes the opposing idea seem extremely silly.

The writer of "Frankenstein" (Takeshi Kimura) didn't write any previous films featuring atomic monsters, so he wouldn't have referenced them.

Now that's not the case at all.

The original draft of Frankenstein vs Baragon was written by Shinichi Sekizawa as Frankenstein vs Godzilla. Frankenstein was intended to become part of that setting years before the final film was completed. Even when Kimura first started working on the script it was still a Godzilla movie. Not only that but Kimura worked on Rodan so characterizing him as not previously writing films featuring atomic monsters is entirely incorrect (and for the record Sekizawa worked on almost every other Toho kaiju movie up to that time, including Mothra). The film is wedded to the themes and tropes of the Godzilla universe from beginning to end- because Godzilla himself was supposed to be in the film.

And a giant octopus is a giant octopus.

Lmao yeah a perfectly ordinary giant octopus.

Imagine if at the end of THEM!, after going to such lengths to explain why the giant ants exist, an unrelated giant animal with no connection to the creation of the giant ants suddenly appeared and killed them. There's a precedent for Oodako existing in Godzilla's universe, having a Giant Octopus just show up in Frankenstein vs Baragon as a stand alone movie without the precedent they get from a shared world is just absurd.

You're not seriously implying it was intended to be the same one from KKvsG are you?

According to Ishiro Honda it was Benedict Productions that wanted Oodako in the film because Henry Saperstein was so impressed with the sequence from KKvsG. So yes it is that giant octopus.

If you mean they're meant to be different members of the same species I guess that's possible, but they're still 'the same' character. Like the Godzilla from 1954 and the Godzilla from every other Showa film are 'the same' character from an IRL perspective while being separate individuals in-universe.

(Also, can someone PLEASE point me to dialogue in the original Mothra that mentions other monsters?)

There's a couple lines in the subtitled version that allude to the existence of other giant monsters. I'd have to pop in my DVD to look again but I remember it being around the time Nelson and his minions realize Mothra has survived the Heat Cannons and is heading for Rosilica.

[edgaguirus]

How would have Oodako from KKvG ended up in the middle of the Japanese countryside? lmao.

It was asked to be put into the film, but Honda felt that having a giant octopus just show up after the big fight didn't make sense. Even the American studio chose to ax that ending when they felt it was unconvincing. You can see the alternate ending in some tv versions, though.

[Spuro]

How would have Oodako from KKvG ended up in the middle of the Japanese countryside? lmao.

It was asked to be put into the film, but Honda felt that having a giant octopus just show up after the big fight didn't make sense. Even the American studio chose to ax that ending when they felt it was unconvincing. You can see the alternate ending in some tv versions, though.

To be fair, the random-ass earthquake ending doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, lol.

[Voyager]

How would have Oodako from KKvG ended up in the middle of the Japanese countryside? lmao.

It was asked to be put into the film, but Honda felt that having a giant octopus just show up after the big fight didn't make sense. Even the American studio chose to ax that ending when they felt it was unconvincing. You can see the alternate ending in some tv versions, though.

Yeah, I know why it was axed. But I'm referring to what Ivo said.

[mikelcho]

How would have Oodako from KKvG ended up in the middle of the Japanese countryside? lmao.

It was asked to be put into the film, but Honda felt that having a giant octopus just show up after the big fight didn't make sense. Even the American studio chose to ax that ending when they felt it was unconvincing. You can see the alternate ending in some tv versions, though.

And you can see it in the Media Blasters/Tokyo Shock DVD release of the film, where it's one of three versions of it (and where it's called the "international version" for some unknown reason).

[Legion1979]

I'm still sitting here trying to process Ivo-Goji's insistance that a giant octopus appearing across multiple films automatically means they're all definitely connected.

I mean haven't we already established that Gorosaurus appearing in DAM doesn't make KKE canon to the Godzilla series? This is the exact same damn thing.

[miguelnuva]

I'm still sitting here trying to process Ivo-Goji's insistance that a giant octopus appearing across multiple films automatically means they're all definitely connected.

I mean haven't we already established that Gorosaurus appearing in DAM doesn't make KKE canon to the Godzilla series? This is the exact same damn thing.

Susan was a blonde, she clearly forgot Godzilla had just fought a bigger Kong and No one wanted to correct her lol.

[Spuro]

I'm still sitting here trying to process Ivo-Goji's insistance that a giant octopus appearing across multiple films automatically means they're all definitely connected.

I mean haven't we already established that Gorosaurus appearing in DAM doesn't make KKE canon to the Godzilla series? This is the exact same damn thing.

Susan was a blonde, she clearly forgot Godzilla had just fought a bigger Kong and No one wanted to correct her lol.

She doesn't understand what's so interesting about gorillas.

[Legion1979]

We're talking about Susan here, a woman whose final line is delivered as if she's a 3 year old.

[JAGzilla]

Destoroyah is held down by his connection to the Oxygen Destroyer.

In the movie, it doesn't ultimately mean much of anything. If he'd been an alien or a demon or anything else, what would have changed? He's just another big thing for Godzilla to fight, and he's a sideshow at that. Godzilla melting down is the real problem, Destoroyah is just a distraction that gets in the way of everything.

He's a cool distraction, though. He has a mostly good design, if maybe a bit overdone, and a good set of powers and abilities. You can call him a retread of Hedorah, but he feels and behaves so differently from Hedorah that it doesn't matter. He looks intimidating and vicious, has the power and attitude to back it up, and just all around makes for a solid generic enemy kaiju. He'd be a fun recurring Big Bad to give Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla the occasional break, if not for the fact that his origin carries so much weight. You can't just break out the Oxygen Destroyer casually, KoTM, so Destoroyah can't just show up any time like the other kaiju can. It's really unfortunate.

[miguelnuva]

Destoroyah is held down by his connection to the Oxygen Destroyer.

In the movie, it doesn't ultimately mean much of anything. If he'd been an alien or a demon or anything else, what would have changed? He's just another big thing for Godzilla to fight, and he's a sideshow at that. Godzilla melting down is the real problem, Destoroyah is just a distraction that gets in the way of everything.

He's a cool distraction, though. He has a mostly good design, if maybe a bit overdone, and a good set of powers and abilities. You can call him a retread of Hedorah, but he feels and behaves so differently from Hedorah that it doesn't matter. He looks intimidating and vicious, has the power and attitude to back it up, and just all around makes for a solid generic enemy kaiju. He'd be a fun recurring Big Bad to give Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla the occasional break, if not for the fact that his origin carries so much weight. You can't just break out the Oxygen Destroyer casually, KoTM, so Destoroyah can't just show up any time like the other kaiju can. It's really unfortunate.

Destroyah wouldn't even be popular without the Oxygen Destroyer.

[LegendZilla]

Destoroyah is held down by his connection to the Oxygen Destroyer.

In the movie, it doesn't ultimately mean much of anything. If he'd been an alien or a demon or anything else, what would have changed? He's just another big thing for Godzilla to fight, and he's a sideshow at that. Godzilla melting down is the real problem, Destoroyah is just a distraction that gets in the way of everything.

He's a cool distraction, though. He has a mostly good design, if maybe a bit overdone, and a good set of powers and abilities. You can call him a retread of Hedorah, but he feels and behaves so differently from Hedorah that it doesn't matter. He looks intimidating and vicious, has the power and attitude to back it up, and just all around makes for a solid generic enemy kaiju. He'd be a fun recurring Big Bad to give Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla the occasional break, if not for the fact that his origin carries so much weight. You can't just break out the Oxygen Destroyer casually, KoTM, so Destoroyah can't just show up any time like the other kaiju can. It's really unfortunate.

Then I guess Godzilla would be held down by his connection to the atomic bomb by that logic.