GMK: Why so much love?
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
this could have been a freaking amazing movie had it been given the time and attention that G3 got. as it is, the fact that it came out as certainly the best made Millennium Godzilla says a lot about the director.
it is not perfect but it is a damn good movie all things considered.
the 3rd act struggles a bit and some of the effects look rushed(because they were) but it is overall a well made film. too bad Kaneko didn't have Final War's budget
it is not perfect but it is a damn good movie all things considered.
the 3rd act struggles a bit and some of the effects look rushed(because they were) but it is overall a well made film. too bad Kaneko didn't have Final War's budget
Gojirawars 03 wrote: The Giant Condor is a blessing upon this Earth, however. He's easily the most important and most powerful kaiju in the franchise. so powerful that Godzilla is helpless against his power, and pleads for mercy, which the gracious Condor grants him. I mean, even the editor wasn't able to show a single shot of the Condor onscreen for more than half a second, because no-one can handle that much sheer power for more than a second.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
Boy, this topic resurfaces again and again, doesn't it? Back in the 2011 I cut and pasted an old, long reply post explaining what I like about GMK. Since it addresses some of Corzak's complaints I'll post it again and add a few points below...
GMK addressed a growing trend in Japan to minimize their responsibilities for WWII. This behavior has led many in Japan to see their country as the victims of foreign aggression in that war and now want Japan to once again build up its military forces.
There are also many Japanese who disagree with that thinking. Shusuke Kaneko is one of those people, and he made GMK as a ''Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'' story, with Godzilla as a reminder of where that path will lead Japan. [2013 update: Hayao Miyazaki's new film THE WIND RISES reportedly addresses similar themes.]
To do so, Kaneko followed the basic concept presented in the original GODZILLA. In both GODZILLA and GMK Godzilla is both villain and victim; a representation of many things (the war, the bomb, etc), and a warning to mankind. Honda and the other filmmakers used GODZILLA to address what was happening in Japan at the time it was made and say that worse things were on the horizon if mankind didn't learn from it's mistakes. GMK is the same. Once again, the monster is not a one-note character... Godzilla is a villain, a representation of the victims of WWII, a symbol of the bomb, and a warning.
The "spirits of the war dead" angle is directly connected to the central theme of the movie. Godzilla specifically attacks Japan at that particular time because the souls of those killed in the Pacific conflict feel their sacrifices will have been in vain if Japan continues on its current path. It's the point of the story and the whole motivation for Godzilla's character in the film.
Up to WWII, the Japanese people believed their Emperor was a living god, and over many years the military rulers convinced the people that they were superior to everyone else and the world was theirs by divine right. Those soldiers fought and died for a lie, and the only thing that would make their sacrifice worthwhile would be Japan to learn from it's mistakes and never repeat them again.
The idea that Godzilla represented those soldiers had been around long before GMK. In an interview with the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shinbun, Akira Ifukube described how audiences reacted to seeing the original GODZILLA in 1954: “The terror of the times was such that people thought that Godzilla might be the symbol of the spirits of the departed soldiers at sea.” In 1994, Professor Norio Akasaka wrote that Godzilla was a “representation of the spirits of soldiers who died in the South Pacific during World War II” and compared Godzilla’s actions in the 1954 film to the story The Voice of the Hero Spirits, in which the ghosts of kamikaze pilots appear before the Emperor and accuse Japan of spiritual decay.
That idea fits perfectly with Kaneko's theme for GMK and also provides Godzilla's motivation for why he returns after and attacks again so many decades. Godzilla is a warning... and as deadly as the monster is in the film, he doesn't compare to what could happen if Japan returned to its pre-WWII ways.
General Tachibana is the only character pushing for Japan to stay aware and vigilant against the old threat... but he's also not some right winger pushing for military might. He talks about how a true soldier at heart takes honor in never having to fight, he keeps an open mind about the Yamato Guardians, and disagrees with his superiors belief that more firepower is all that is needed. It's not an accident that Tachibana is the one who helps save the day.
Nearly everyone else (including Tachibana's own daughter) really couldn't care less about Godzilla or remembering the past. Godzilla has become such a distant memory that people are unsure what he even looks like (he's confused with Baragon), and high school kids call him a "poor animal" who would make a good pet. The government refuses to take the threat seriously at first. The Yamato shrines are disturbed by people who (again) have no clue or interest in what they represent. Again, it's no accident that many of those characters end up dead or are proven wrong.
So rather than not gelling, all the major story elements act in service to the central theme of GMK. In fact, the story is so well developed that Kaneko also uses it to make a point about the current public perception of Godzilla. In Japan these days Godzilla is no longer considered "cool"; kids are more into anime and hero shows while adults think the movies are only good for children and geeks. In GMK, notice how many of the characters think Godzilla to be old news, unimportant, passé, or not much of a threat... and how everyone (who lived) has vastly different views by the end of the film.
That's what I like about GMK... just like the original GODZILLA-, it's actually about something beyond the usual monster fare. It's not doing the standard "we should stop nuclear testing", "we should respect the environment" lip-service these films often have but instead deals with a current situation (just like GODZILLA did) on multiple levels. You can enjoy films like GODZILLA and GMK on a simple "monsters smashing stuff" level, but if you're aware of the subtext they become that much richer.
GMK opened well in Japan, and then ticket sales went up weeks into its theatrical run based on positive word of mouth. The positive buzz spread outside Japan (very rare for a Godzilla film)... when it was shown at the American Film Market the audience applauded Kaneko's onscreen credit at the end of the film (the only time I've seen that happen for any movie at AFM). Sony Studios requested a print of GMK for a private screening, they picked up the US rights, and over the past 8 years it is easily the most theatrically booked Godzilla film in their repertory division.
Reading Corzak's complaints in the first few pages of this thread, I think he showed that he misunderstood the movie and Godzilla's character in general...
FINAL WARS was meant to be a 50th anniversary celebration of Godzilla and Toho's FX films, but the director wanted to embrace what he loved about those films... fighting and silliness. It had a long shooting schedule and the highest budget BY FAR of any Godzilla film, but the money went to stunts and location shoots rather than FX so the visuals are weaker than films like GAMERA 3 which were made for a fraction of the cost (imagine if those resources had gone to make a top-line tokusatsu film)... the FX crew had to work with a tighter budget than previous Godzilla films. The lead actors were a MMA fighter, a pop idol and a model. Rather than referencing Toho's vast history, the movie "homages" American films like THE MATRIX. The story is full of moments that make no sense and are never explained... important details were sacrificed to make a "cool" movie. Japanese audiences saw what GFW was and stayed away... the movie was the biggest financial loser is the entire series. Toho made the movie with the intention that it would get a worldwide theatrical release, but not a single foreign distributor gave it a wide theatrical release (Sony thought it was terrible and only picked up TV and video rights). The movie just fails at what is was meant to accomplish.
The complete opposite happens in GMK. Godzilla is the threat, and the good guys are overmatched. And while the FINAL WARS bad guys go down quickly (sometimes from a single hit) and lose, the GMK good guys struggle and show heart and sacrifice to ultimately score a victory.
Saying the exact same thing is done in both films is ludicrous, and shows a complete misunderstanding of both films.
The original GODZILLA was all about purpose. The monster has both story and symbolic reasons for his attacks... all of which played to Japanese audiences who had recently experienced WWII. And like the first film, Godzilla in GMK attacks for specific reasons... the monster's motivation is tied into then-current events and have both direct story and symbolic reasons. Again, this is something G84 lacked.
Ghidorah creates the wound in Godzilla's shoulder which Tachibana later targets. That means Ghidorah actions directly lead to Godzilla's defeat... something no other incarnation of Ghidorah ever accomplished in a Godzilla movie. Again, that's the opposite of your "completely fail" complaint.
But as I noted above, the original version of Godzilla was not a one-note character... Godzilla is a villain, a representation of the victims of WWII, a symbol of the bomb, and a warning. GMK is the same; the monster is not just an evil menace, but also a warning with symbolic qualities.
GMK addressed a growing trend in Japan to minimize their responsibilities for WWII. This behavior has led many in Japan to see their country as the victims of foreign aggression in that war and now want Japan to once again build up its military forces.
There are also many Japanese who disagree with that thinking. Shusuke Kaneko is one of those people, and he made GMK as a ''Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'' story, with Godzilla as a reminder of where that path will lead Japan. [2013 update: Hayao Miyazaki's new film THE WIND RISES reportedly addresses similar themes.]
To do so, Kaneko followed the basic concept presented in the original GODZILLA. In both GODZILLA and GMK Godzilla is both villain and victim; a representation of many things (the war, the bomb, etc), and a warning to mankind. Honda and the other filmmakers used GODZILLA to address what was happening in Japan at the time it was made and say that worse things were on the horizon if mankind didn't learn from it's mistakes. GMK is the same. Once again, the monster is not a one-note character... Godzilla is a villain, a representation of the victims of WWII, a symbol of the bomb, and a warning.
The "spirits of the war dead" angle is directly connected to the central theme of the movie. Godzilla specifically attacks Japan at that particular time because the souls of those killed in the Pacific conflict feel their sacrifices will have been in vain if Japan continues on its current path. It's the point of the story and the whole motivation for Godzilla's character in the film.
Up to WWII, the Japanese people believed their Emperor was a living god, and over many years the military rulers convinced the people that they were superior to everyone else and the world was theirs by divine right. Those soldiers fought and died for a lie, and the only thing that would make their sacrifice worthwhile would be Japan to learn from it's mistakes and never repeat them again.
The idea that Godzilla represented those soldiers had been around long before GMK. In an interview with the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shinbun, Akira Ifukube described how audiences reacted to seeing the original GODZILLA in 1954: “The terror of the times was such that people thought that Godzilla might be the symbol of the spirits of the departed soldiers at sea.” In 1994, Professor Norio Akasaka wrote that Godzilla was a “representation of the spirits of soldiers who died in the South Pacific during World War II” and compared Godzilla’s actions in the 1954 film to the story The Voice of the Hero Spirits, in which the ghosts of kamikaze pilots appear before the Emperor and accuse Japan of spiritual decay.
That idea fits perfectly with Kaneko's theme for GMK and also provides Godzilla's motivation for why he returns after and attacks again so many decades. Godzilla is a warning... and as deadly as the monster is in the film, he doesn't compare to what could happen if Japan returned to its pre-WWII ways.
General Tachibana is the only character pushing for Japan to stay aware and vigilant against the old threat... but he's also not some right winger pushing for military might. He talks about how a true soldier at heart takes honor in never having to fight, he keeps an open mind about the Yamato Guardians, and disagrees with his superiors belief that more firepower is all that is needed. It's not an accident that Tachibana is the one who helps save the day.
Nearly everyone else (including Tachibana's own daughter) really couldn't care less about Godzilla or remembering the past. Godzilla has become such a distant memory that people are unsure what he even looks like (he's confused with Baragon), and high school kids call him a "poor animal" who would make a good pet. The government refuses to take the threat seriously at first. The Yamato shrines are disturbed by people who (again) have no clue or interest in what they represent. Again, it's no accident that many of those characters end up dead or are proven wrong.
So rather than not gelling, all the major story elements act in service to the central theme of GMK. In fact, the story is so well developed that Kaneko also uses it to make a point about the current public perception of Godzilla. In Japan these days Godzilla is no longer considered "cool"; kids are more into anime and hero shows while adults think the movies are only good for children and geeks. In GMK, notice how many of the characters think Godzilla to be old news, unimportant, passé, or not much of a threat... and how everyone (who lived) has vastly different views by the end of the film.
That's what I like about GMK... just like the original GODZILLA-, it's actually about something beyond the usual monster fare. It's not doing the standard "we should stop nuclear testing", "we should respect the environment" lip-service these films often have but instead deals with a current situation (just like GODZILLA did) on multiple levels. You can enjoy films like GODZILLA and GMK on a simple "monsters smashing stuff" level, but if you're aware of the subtext they become that much richer.
GMK opened well in Japan, and then ticket sales went up weeks into its theatrical run based on positive word of mouth. The positive buzz spread outside Japan (very rare for a Godzilla film)... when it was shown at the American Film Market the audience applauded Kaneko's onscreen credit at the end of the film (the only time I've seen that happen for any movie at AFM). Sony Studios requested a print of GMK for a private screening, they picked up the US rights, and over the past 8 years it is easily the most theatrically booked Godzilla film in their repertory division.
Reading Corzak's complaints in the first few pages of this thread, I think he showed that he misunderstood the movie and Godzilla's character in general...
The general concept of the Millennium Series was to intentionally break from established continuity to allow the filmmakers to present alternate takes on Godzilla and the other other monsters... the movie equivalent of Marvel's "What If" and DC's "Elseworlds" comics. MEGAGUIRUS launches from the premise of "what if Godzilla was never killed by the Oxygen Destroyer?, GMK is "what if Godzilla hadn't been seen since 1954?" and GxMG is "what if Godzilla's bones hadn't been disintegrated?". The films are supposed to take liberties with what had gone before; that's the point.the sheer amount of derailing of the monsters that had to be done in order to make this movie work is a slap to the face to the kaiju.
As I explained above, that's not true at all.Godzilla is completely altered, removing everything that made him who he was
No, they don't. Some of the characters hope the guardian monsters can stop Godzilla, but they know its a long shot. The first time Yuri sees Godzilla with her own eyes she says Baragon has "no chance" against Godzilla... that's at the start of the very first monster battle in the movie.They set up the guardian monsters as the only things that can beat Godzilla
The story isn't about brute force beating brute force; it's about understanding the past and working together to stop a growing threat. The human characters come to see that, and only by working alongside the guardian monsters do they accomplish victory.Why set them up as the heroes of the story if you're just going to kill them all off?
Godzilla is indestructible from the outside so the only way to beat him is from within. And Godzilla's aggression actually causes his own destruction, just like Japan did with their aggression in WWII... tying the monster's fate to Japan's if they go down that path again. These story points work extremely well if you understand what the movie is saying.And then, in order to kill Godzilla, one of the guys swims into Godzilla's mouth, and fires a drill into his shoulder, which causes Godzilla to blow himself up with his nuclear breath. ... really?
GMK is flawed, but it address both Godzilla's 1954 symbolic roots (the war, the bomb, the victims) as well as how the character is now perceived in Japan (old news, kiddie fodder) in a way that no other film does (or even tries to do). The story, the characters (which you admit you don't even remember), the monsters, and even seemingly "throwaway" lines of dialogue all fit the central themes. Japanese audiences got that, and many fans outside Japan did, too.Why is GMK so much more beloved than, say, Final Wars?
FINAL WARS was meant to be a 50th anniversary celebration of Godzilla and Toho's FX films, but the director wanted to embrace what he loved about those films... fighting and silliness. It had a long shooting schedule and the highest budget BY FAR of any Godzilla film, but the money went to stunts and location shoots rather than FX so the visuals are weaker than films like GAMERA 3 which were made for a fraction of the cost (imagine if those resources had gone to make a top-line tokusatsu film)... the FX crew had to work with a tighter budget than previous Godzilla films. The lead actors were a MMA fighter, a pop idol and a model. Rather than referencing Toho's vast history, the movie "homages" American films like THE MATRIX. The story is full of moments that make no sense and are never explained... important details were sacrificed to make a "cool" movie. Japanese audiences saw what GFW was and stayed away... the movie was the biggest financial loser is the entire series. Toho made the movie with the intention that it would get a worldwide theatrical release, but not a single foreign distributor gave it a wide theatrical release (Sony thought it was terrible and only picked up TV and video rights). The movie just fails at what is was meant to accomplish.
In FINAL WARS, Godzilla isn't a "good guy" but he is directly used by the heroes to defeat the villains. So you have the hero monster quickly defeating a string of overmatched bad monsters.Okay, fine. You want to hear my argument against the monsters being wussified? It's EXACTLY what they did in Final Wars. They weakened the monsters severely and made them incredibly easy to defeat, in order to show that Godzilla was an all-powerful force of destruction. Seems bad, but sit down and look at this movie. So what did they do here? They weakened Godzilla's opponent's severely and made them incredibly easy to defeat to show that Gdozilla was an all-powerful force of destruction.
The complete opposite happens in GMK. Godzilla is the threat, and the good guys are overmatched. And while the FINAL WARS bad guys go down quickly (sometimes from a single hit) and lose, the GMK good guys struggle and show heart and sacrifice to ultimately score a victory.
Saying the exact same thing is done in both films is ludicrous, and shows a complete misunderstanding of both films.
No, they hadn't. GODZILLA (1984) took Godzilla back to being antagonistic towards mankind, but one of the big complaints at the time that film was released (and still repeated today) is that monster has no purpose... Godzilla just shows up and smashes stuff and is then defeated. In the American edit (not the Japanese version) Raymond Burr says Godzilla is "looking for something" but no one ever follows up on that and it has nothing to do with the rest of the story.They had already done that, though, back in 1985.
The original GODZILLA was all about purpose. The monster has both story and symbolic reasons for his attacks... all of which played to Japanese audiences who had recently experienced WWII. And like the first film, Godzilla in GMK attacks for specific reasons... the monster's motivation is tied into then-current events and have both direct story and symbolic reasons. Again, this is something G84 lacked.
Calling it "a completely unnecessary plot point" is unbelievably wrongheaded. It's the whole point of the movie, and it's tied into Godzilla's roots going all the way back to 1954.Going back to my first response to you, they could've just had Godzilla come back somehow, or hell, make it a completely new Godzilla. Having him be "possessed by angry spirits" is a completely unnecessary plot point.
Not to be rude, but you keep making complaints that are factually wrong.Sure, they've died, but they don't usually completely fail at their entire purpose at existing. Usually they do SOMETHING important before they die. What did any of the guardians do?
Ghidorah creates the wound in Godzilla's shoulder which Tachibana later targets. That means Ghidorah actions directly lead to Godzilla's defeat... something no other incarnation of Ghidorah ever accomplished in a Godzilla movie. Again, that's the opposite of your "completely fail" complaint.
Again, wrong. In GODZILLA, the monster was meant symbolize the horrors of war and is therefore evil... his actions (including targeting innocent civilians) are meant to be malicious and deliberately destructive. He attacks with a purpose, unlike a hurricane or an earthquake. The "force of nature" portrayal was a later interpretation of the character, as were the "hero", "father", "anti-hero", etc.a] GODZILLA WAS NEVER EVIL TO BEGIN WITH. Yes, that's right. He was never evil. He was certainly the ANTAGONIST, but he wasn't ever deliberately evil, at least not from what we can tell. He was just a misunderstood, confused monster, who unleashed his anger on Tokyo upon awakening. This Godzilla is the first and ONLY deliberately "evil" Godzilla, rather than simply a vicious angry force of nature.
But as I noted above, the original version of Godzilla was not a one-note character... Godzilla is a villain, a representation of the victims of WWII, a symbol of the bomb, and a warning. GMK is the same; the monster is not just an evil menace, but also a warning with symbolic qualities.
GMK addresses what Godzilla means in a way that hadn't been seen since the original film, and it does so in a way that also connects with current views on the character. So it is unique (or at least a second look at something unseen since 1954), and definitely does bring something new to the table.3) This movie had a unique plot: No, it doesn't. Possession has been a trope in fantasy stories for CENTURIES, and the idea of a guardian kaiju dates back to AT LEAST King Caesar and Daimajin, if not earlier. So no, the movie doesn't bring anything new to the table, except maybe having said Guardians die.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
Opinions, especially strongly held opinions, don't just magically change in a few minutes. That's why no one in the FMs ever agree on anything.Godzilla 1995 wrote:
So, you're basically saying, "Screw you, I don't care what you think"? Cause that's the vibe I'm getting here.
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Breakdown wrote: HP Lovecraft's cat should be the ultimate villain of the MonsterVerse.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
One direction, Kaneko could've taken was to have no actual "good" monster. Instead of the whole role-swapping controversy it could have been a simple free for all.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
...But then what would be the point of having guardian monsters if they were too busy fighting each other to defend Japan from Godzilla?LegendZilla wrote:One direction, Kaneko could've taken was to have no actual "good" monster. Instead of the whole role-swapping controversy it could have been a simple free for all.
That's like hiring bodyguards to protect you from a crazy killer stalker. But then the bodyguards suddenly try killing each other while the crazy killer stalker was going after you.
Last edited by Dust_pan on Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Q: Will we see that monster that Bryan was going to reveal this morning at the press conference?
Cranston: Oh yeah! The only Godzilla movie with an X-rating.
Cranston: Oh yeah! The only Godzilla movie with an X-rating.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
I think he's suggesting not having them be guardian monsters at all, though that would require some changes to the plot.Dust_pan wrote:...But then what would be the point of having guardian monsters if they were too busy fighting each other to defend Japan from Godzilla?LegendZilla wrote:One direction, Kaneko could've taken was to have no actual "good" monster. Instead of the whole role-swapping controversy it could have been a simple free for all.
That's like hiring bodyguards to protect you from a crazy killer stalker. But then the bodyguards suddenly try killing each other while the crazy killer stalker was going after you.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
MAJOR changes to the plot.20th Century Boy wrote:I think he's suggesting not having them be guardian monsters at all, though that would require some changes to the plot.Dust_pan wrote:...But then what would be the point of having guardian monsters if they were too busy fighting each other to defend Japan from Godzilla?LegendZilla wrote:One direction, Kaneko could've taken was to have no actual "good" monster. Instead of the whole role-swapping controversy it could have been a simple free for all.
That's like hiring bodyguards to protect you from a crazy killer stalker. But then the bodyguards suddenly try killing each other while the crazy killer stalker was going after you.
Q: Will we see that monster that Bryan was going to reveal this morning at the press conference?
Cranston: Oh yeah! The only Godzilla movie with an X-rating.
Cranston: Oh yeah! The only Godzilla movie with an X-rating.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
That's the idea, the monsters would not be gaurdians, just angered deities awakened from their slumber. Yes plot changes would be necessary.Dust_pan wrote:...But then what would be the point of having guardian monsters if they were too busy fighting each other to defend Japan from Godzilla?LegendZilla wrote:One direction, Kaneko could've taken was to have no actual "good" monster. Instead of the whole role-swapping controversy it could have been a simple free for all.
That's like hiring bodyguards to protect you from a crazy killer stalker. But then the bodyguards suddenly try killing each other while the crazy killer stalker was going after you.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
GMK is great because Godzilla is not in danger, he IS the danger. A kaiju is rampaging through a city and gets hit with a missile, and you think that of Godzilla? No, he is the one who knocks... over army tanks.
"That's a lot of fish."
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
That guy is gonna get banned. I feel it in my bones.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
He's referencing Breaking Bad, really good show, you should watch it 

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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
This is the best post to ever hit the internet. Thank you for doing humanity a service.RolandEmmerich4EVR wrote:GMK is great because Godzilla is not in danger, he IS the danger. A kaiju is rampaging through a city and gets hit with a missile, and you think that of Godzilla? No, he is the one who knocks... over army tanks.
My Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla stop motion movie -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fshhA8BWuLw
Rodan vs. F-22 Raptor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q3V02iy_Xw
Wrath of Mechagodzilla - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4xHP8C_vWw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fshhA8BWuLw
Rodan vs. F-22 Raptor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q3V02iy_Xw
Wrath of Mechagodzilla - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4xHP8C_vWw
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
I'm glad I could help. It's not my intention to try to change your opinion -- whether you like something or not is of no concern to me -- but to rather to 1) answer your initial questions "Why is GMK considered such a great movie? What about It do people love so much?" and 2) hopefully clear up some of the factual mistakes you'd made (and, to be honest, you made a lot of them). Many of the reasons you posted for disliking GMK were based on your own misunderstandings rather than real flaws with the film so my goal was to give you the facts. If that changes your opinion or not is up to you.Corzak The Mighty wrote:Alright, so since it's quite clear that my argument has been completely an utterly thrashed without a single hope of being repaired, allow me to simply state a few things. Now I can better understand why people like it, and I do see the deeper point to the movie, which kpa has so graciously pointed out to me before completely obliterating my arguments. But, to put it bluntly, this movie is just sucks to me.
To you, maybe. But it's just another example of basing a negative opinion on something you got wrong.This just happens to be one of the many. And there's no argument you could make to me that will ever make the movie anything more than a Godzilla movie pretending to be something that it isn't: another Heisei Gamera movie.
Going back to the feudal days, the Japanese people had a belief that nature and natural disasters were created by spiritual forces, often represented as ghostly or godlike beings. The yokai are one very popular example of this; they've been a part of Japanese culture for centuries.
Toho's monster movies are Japanese productions made by Japanese people for primarily Japanese audiences. Therefore, they naturally reflect Japanese viewpoints and culture and that, ironically, is one of the reasons they appeal to fans outside. Unlike American monster movies -- which usually (not always) featured giant monsters who behave like animals -- Japanese movie monsters have symbolic, spiritual natures and personalities almost like the gods in Greek, Norse and Roman mythology.
The "Japanese style" approach goes all the way back to the original GODZILLA, where the monster is the basis for an Odo Island legend and behaves with a purpose that is symbolic (mirroring events of WWII and the recent H-bomb tests) rather than animalistic (looking for food, shelter, etc). As I noted in my last post, this was intentional by the filmmakers, and Japanese audiences and historians understood. And over the Showa Series Godzilla develops a strong personality that further distances him from the American style of movie monster. One of the many mistakes made with the 1998 TriStar GODZILLA is that the filmmakers decided Godzilla should act like an animal... when Ryuhei Kitamura said "they took the 'God' out of 'Godzilla'" he wasn't joking.
Not every character or film is meant to have some symbolic meaning, but neither are they meant to be straight science fiction, either. Mothra is the most obvious example of a spiritual/godlike monster, but this quality is also part of Godzilla and other characters (and not just the obvious examples like King Caesar). In VARAN, strong winds kick up while the monster walks through a forest... no scientific explanation is given for this, but if you understand that Varan isn't just a big animal the effect makes more sense. And this goes beyond the Toho films; Gamera has been portrayed as an Earth guardian, Daimajin is a living god, and the early Ultraman shows occasionally featured religious and symbolic references... in one episode Ultraman is even referred to as the "god of Noah".
So saying GMK is "a Godzilla movie pretending to be something that it isn't: another Heisei Gamera movie" is nonsensical and a frankly narrow-minded argument. Do they both deal with historical, mythological and spiritual matters? Sure. But so did GODZILLA and dozens of other monster movies and shows. This concept didn't start with the Heisei Gameras but goes all the way back to the beginning of the genre... it's part of what makes Japanese monster movies 'Japanese'.
If all you want is psuedo-science and monsters attacking and smashing, there's plenty of American films and Syfy movies that fit the bill. Japanese monster movies also work on that level, but they can also offer some insight into another culture and their views of the world. Does a message make a crappy movie good? Of course not. But these films aren't made in a vacuum, so having some understanding of the culture or events that shaped them can give you more insight and allow you to appreciate (or not) these movies on different levels. That you made a bunch of factual mistakes about GMK and then basically said no facts will ever change your mind says much more about you than it does about the film. Again, I don't care if you like the movie or not, but I wouldn't want to approach anything with a "facts don't matter" attitude.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
Pretty much everything you just said is all that needs to be said on the subject, the thread should be closed after thiskpa wrote:I'm glad I could help. It's not my intention to try to change your opinion -- whether you like something or not is of no concern to me -- but to rather to 1) answer your initial questions "Why is GMK considered such a great movie? What about It do people love so much?" and 2) hopefully clear up some of the factual mistakes you'd made (and, to be honest, you made a lot of them). Many of the reasons you posted for disliking GMK were based on your own misunderstandings rather than real flaws with the film so my goal was to give you the facts. If that changes your opinion or not is up to you.Corzak The Mighty wrote:Alright, so since it's quite clear that my argument has been completely an utterly thrashed without a single hope of being repaired, allow me to simply state a few things. Now I can better understand why people like it, and I do see the deeper point to the movie, which kpa has so graciously pointed out to me before completely obliterating my arguments. But, to put it bluntly, this movie is just sucks to me.
To you, maybe. But it's just another example of basing a negative opinion on something you got wrong.This just happens to be one of the many. And there's no argument you could make to me that will ever make the movie anything more than a Godzilla movie pretending to be something that it isn't: another Heisei Gamera movie.
Going back to the feudal days, the Japanese people had a belief that nature and natural disasters were created by spiritual forces, often represented as ghostly or godlike beings. The yokai are one very popular example of this; they've been a part of Japanese culture for centuries.
Toho's monster movies are Japanese productions made by Japanese people for primarily Japanese audiences. Therefore, they naturally reflect Japanese viewpoints and culture and that, ironically, is one of the reasons they appeal to fans outside. Unlike American monster movies -- which usually (not always) featured giant monsters who behave like animals -- Japanese movie monsters have symbolic, spiritual natures and personalities almost like the gods in Greek, Norse and Roman mythology.
The "Japanese style" approach goes all the way back to the original GODZILLA, where the monster is the basis for an Odo Island legend and behaves with a purpose that is symbolic (mirroring events of WWII and the recent H-bomb tests) rather than animalistic (looking for food, shelter, etc). As I noted in my last post, this was intentional by the filmmakers, and Japanese audiences and historians understood. And over the Showa Series Godzilla develops a strong personality that further distances him from the American style of movie monster. One of the many mistakes made with the 1998 TriStar GODZILLA is that the filmmakers decided Godzilla should act like an animal... when Ryuhei Kitamura said "they took the 'God' out of 'Godzilla'" he wasn't joking.
Not every character or film is meant to have some symbolic meaning, but neither are they meant to be straight science fiction, either. Mothra is the most obvious example of a spiritual/godlike monster, but this quality is also part of Godzilla and other characters (and not just the obvious examples like King Caesar). In VARAN, strong winds kick up while the monster walks through a forest... no scientific explanation is given for this, but if you understand that Varan isn't just a big animal the effect makes more sense. And this goes beyond the Toho films; Gamera has been portrayed as an Earth guardian, Daimajin is a living god, and the early Ultraman shows occasionally featured religious and symbolic references... in one episode Ultraman is even referred to as the "god of Noah".
So saying GMK is "a Godzilla movie pretending to be something that it isn't: another Heisei Gamera movie" is nonsensical and a frankly narrow-minded argument. Do they both deal with historical, mythological and spiritual matters? Sure. But so did GODZILLA and dozens of other monster movies and shows. This concept didn't start with the Heisei Gameras but goes all the way back to the beginning of the genre... it's part of what makes Japanese monster movies 'Japanese'.
If all you want is psuedo-science and monsters attacking and smashing, there's plenty of American films and Syfy movies that fit the bill. Japanese monster movies also work on that level, but they can also offer some insight into another culture and their views of the world. Does a message make a crappy movie good? Of course not. But these films aren't made in a vacuum, so having some understanding of the culture or events that shaped them can give you more insight and allow you to appreciate (or not) these movies on different levels. That you made a bunch of factual mistakes about GMK and then basically said no facts will ever change your mind says much more about you than it does about the film. Again, I don't care if you like the movie or not, but I wouldn't want to approach anything with a "facts don't matter" attitude.

TK's official member of the "Three L's of the Apocalypse"


- KaijuAlertSystem
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
I like the movie, but I don't care at all for the spiritual aspects of the story. I think that the story could have done with a little less old man ghost, and actually done more to deepen the relationships between the characters so that I could allow myself to care more about Yuri and the fate of her father. Either way, it's a good film with a few obvious missteps in my mind.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
The spiritual aspect is one the appeals of the film. It doesn't go too far into fantasy, but enough to counter the normal sci fi of the earlier films.
Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
We're all part monster in our subconscious. So we have laws and religion.
We're all part monster in our subconscious. So we have laws and religion.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
Yeah, I more or less agree with this. I love the movie, I think it's one of the best Godzilla movies in the last 30 years, but I really don't care for the mysticism. I find it distracting. It serves its purpose in the plot and does help drive the film's point, but...I dunno, it feels too "fantasy" for me. I accept it, though. I know it's something Kaneko adds to his kaiju films. I think it works better in Gamera than here, but I don't think it hurts the movie at all.KaijuAlertSystem wrote:I like the movie, but I don't care at all for the spiritual aspects of the story. I think that the story could have done with a little less old man ghost, and actually done more to deepen the relationships between the characters so that I could allow myself to care more about Yuri and the fate of her father. Either way, it's a good film with a few obvious missteps in my mind.
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
I like the mystic aspect of the movie because I also am interested in Japanese culture overall. The mystical and religious traditions are a large part of that culture and I was happy to see a Godzilla movie make reference to those strong traditions.
Liam F.
My science fiction/Fantasy blog. with Godzilla content! http://foleyfunfilmfacts.wordpress.com/
My science fiction/Fantasy blog. with Godzilla content! http://foleyfunfilmfacts.wordpress.com/
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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
GMK is one of my fav G-movies but even it has its flaws. The one thing I don't like is Mothra's design. It's not bad but its not really good either. She looks more like a wasp or bee type insect then a moth

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Re: GMK: Why so much love?
One minor detail is what completely ruined the movie for me was Godzilla eyes. I just couldnt get passed it.
I do see how the white eye could be used to give an eviler look and all , but it just bugged me.
I do see how the white eye could be used to give an eviler look and all , but it just bugged me.
i drive a pick up truck and i drink a lot, i should make a song about it