Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Godzilla 2000 » Thu May 24, 2012 3:52 pm

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:
In order to be entertained, I need to know what is actually going on. Otherwise, there's no point in watching the film.

...Yeah, it does need to make sense. Of course it does. If it doesn't make sense, then what's the point of having any logic in a movie to begin with? Why have rules at all?

To me, that's the number one rule for a movie to be: To make sense.

Because what happens in Ichiro's dream makes sense: It's a dream, anything can happen there. But the deal with the painter? It makes no sense to me, because it makes Ichiro out to be no better than the bullies, and goes against the moral of the film.


Man, you much be such a bore to talk to in real life if this is how you approach things. I mean, REALLY dude.

It's a strange, stupid little movie for kids. It shouldnt require so much thought and discussion to comprehend.

He made the guy fall to prove to the other kids that he had the balls to pull a prank like that. There, simple.

It doesnt mean he's now a delinquent who will lead his fellow ne'er-do-wells on a crime spree across the neighborhood.

The message of "standing up for yourself" isnt rendered null and void because he decided to pull one prank.

Shit man, IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

And if you dont understand something, instead of constantly going "I dont get it, it doesnt make sense" and questioning everyone who tries to make you understand, try doing what I do; make sense of it yourself. Make it seem logical to yourself.

Example:

Me: Why did Ichiro make the painter fall over?
Myself: Maybe he wanted to show the other kids that he had the balls to do it.
I: Yeah, that works. Let's go with that.

And then I move on with my life.

:P
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Thu May 24, 2012 4:16 pm

Godzilla 2000 wrote:Man, you much be such a bore to talk to in real life if this is how you approach things. I mean, REALLY dude.


Can you really go just one conversation with a person that has a different opinion than you without resorting to insults? Or is that just impossible for you?

It's a strange, stupid little movie for kids. It shouldnt require so much thought and discussion to comprehend.


That's an excuse.

Just because it's a children's film, doesn't mean that it shouldn't require some thought to understand what's going on. One of my favorite movies as a kid, Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan, required quite a bit of thought in order for a six year old to understand what's going on.

A children's film is still a film, and a film needs to make sense.

He made the guy fall to prove to the other kids that he had the balls to pull a prank like that. There, simple.


Not really. Because, by doing so, it not only makes Ichiro look like a bully, effectively making him no better than the villain, but he allows goes against the moral of the film: To stand up for yourself against those who torment you.

On top of that, Ichiro already proved that he had balls when he stood up to the burglars and fought Gabara. So if that ending bit was there just to prove that Ichiro had the balls to do, it was entirely pointless.

The message of "standing up for yourself" isnt rendered null and void because he decided to pull one prank.


No, it's rendered null and void, because he did what the bullies bullied him to do at the beginning of the film. I don't care if he did it as a prank or not, he still did what the bullies wanted from the start.

If they wanted the film to end on Ichiro pulling a prank, then it should have been something entirely different from honking the painter's horn.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Dr. Nishiyama » Thu May 24, 2012 5:00 pm

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:
Godzilla 2000 wrote:
GotengoXGodzilla wrote:I could easily turn that around: It's a movie, ya gotta continue to ask questions, otherwise why are you even watching it?


I dunno, to be entertained? To let your imagination escape and run wild? That's kinda the idea.


In order to be entertained, I need to know what is actually going on. Otherwise, there's no point in watching the film.

It's very simple. If something doesn't make sense to me, I'm going to question what's going on. It doesn't matter if it's with a movie or real life, especially with a movie that's suppose to be a reflection of real life.


Dude, it's a movie. It doesnt have to make sense...


...Yeah, it does need to make sense. Of course it does. If it doesn't make sense, then what's the point of having any logic in a movie to begin with? Why have rules at all?

To me, that's the number one rule for a movie to be: To make sense.

I mean, I dont see you questioning the boy who can fall asleep and dream at will, or how he can specifically dream about going to monster island and interacting with Minya, and yet the bit with the painter throws you off? Ok...


Because what happens in Ichiro's dream makes sense: It's a dream, anything can happen there. But the deal with the painter? It makes no sense to me, because it makes Ichiro out to be no better than the bullies, and goes against the moral of the film.


If you have to know what is going on to be entertained stay away from the films of Lars Von Trier and Alejandro Jodorowski!

Also, in the Japanese version of All Monsters Attack, didn't Ichiro's dad say he'd pay for the painter's ruined clothes and the damaged sign? Can't remember, but if so, Ichiro is a little turd since his parents make very little money if they work all the time.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Gawdziller » Thu May 24, 2012 5:37 pm

Godzilla 2000 wrote:Dude, it's a movie. It doesnt have to make sense...


All readers are invited to vote on my response to this:

A. So that's why so many people like M. Night Shyamalan.
B. And thus the Butterfly Effect 2 was declared the greatest movie ever made.

YOU DECIDE!
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby edgaguirus » Thu May 24, 2012 9:33 pm

Regarding the music in GfW...

It works in some scenes. Godzilla vs Zilla, G vs Kumonga, and Kazama's sacrifice had appropriate scores, but other music choices fell flat.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Destroyer » Thu May 24, 2012 9:42 pm

Anyone else like the End Title theme?
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby tymon » Fri May 25, 2012 2:58 am

^No. It's the single worst track in the Godzilla universe IMO.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby kaiju_wars » Fri May 25, 2012 3:51 am

Destroyer wrote:Anyone else like the End Title theme?


I liked it... I found it pretty catchy.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Rody » Fri May 25, 2012 9:01 am

Destroyer wrote:Anyone else like the End Title theme?

I'm pretty much indifferent on that track.

tymon wrote:^No. It's the single worst track in the Godzilla universe IMO.

Uh-uh. That title goes to AMA's 'Monster March' song.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby shinmattiathekaiju » Fri May 25, 2012 9:36 am

Destroyer wrote:Anyone else like the End Title theme?



MEH! I like Rodan Attacks NYC alot better.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Living Corpse » Fri May 25, 2012 10:43 am

Monster X's theme is one of the few that actually doesn't sound lame.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Cimmerian Dragon » Fri May 25, 2012 11:59 am

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:
The message of "standing up for yourself" isnt rendered null and void because he decided to pull one prank.


No, it's rendered null and void, because he did what the bullies bullied him to do at the beginning of the film. I don't care if he did it as a prank or not, he still did what the bullies wanted from the start.

If they wanted the film to end on Ichiro pulling a prank, then it should have been something entirely different from honking the painter's horn.


If I have a bunch of neighbors who want me to paint my house blue because the people across the street hate that color and they want to piss them off, I might not want to do it because I have no beef with the people across the street, and no desire to help my neighbors irritate them. However, if I want to paint it blue for my own reasons, I'm going to do it regardless of anybody's opinion on the matter. Is it a victory for my asshole neighbors? Not if I based my actions on my own desires, and I'm satisfied with the results. Are they going to be happy about my decision? Probably. Might they think I did it based on their advice? Sure. Either way, it's no concern of mine, because I don't let others' whims dictate what fulfills me.

I can see your point about Ichiro pulling a "different" prank to avoid this overlap, making the dramatic arc flow a little less ambiguously, but I reject out of hand the notion that his prank as-filmed represents a victory for the bullies. They might enjoy watching it, but Ichiro shouldn't give two-shits about it. Does this make Ichiro a bully in his own right? Not in my mind, but lets say for the sake of argument that he continues to be a total dick for the rest of his life. Whether I like his behavior or not, he's still living on his own terms, not being led about on a leash by bullies, crooks, or the world in general. That still works as a concept, to me.

The question is whether one thinks the message of the movie is "stand up to bullies, but be a nice guy otherwise", or "stand up to those who would dictate your desires, and choose your own identity". If the moral is the latter, but Ichiro pranks the painter because the bullies wanted him to do so, then the message of the film is flawed. If he does it because, regardless of the reasons, he wants to do it to satisfy his own urges, then the message stands.

If the message is to "stand up against the bad guys, but be nice all the time otherwise", then I guess you're right, and Ichiro fails.

Regardless, I'm perfectly fine with the ambiguous ending. Why should I prefer a movie that tells me what I should think, rather than one that lets me mull it over on my own? Hell, I'd love to see the epic remake: "David Lynch's All Monsters Attack!"
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Fri May 25, 2012 12:58 pm

If I have a bunch of neighbors who want me to paint my house blue because the people across the street hate that color and they want to piss them off, I might not want to do it because I have no beef with the people across the street, and no desire to help my neighbors irritate them. However, if I want to paint it blue for my own reasons, I'm going to do it regardless of anybody's opinion on the matter. Is it a victory for my asshole neighbors? Not if I based my actions on my own desires, and I'm satisfied with the results. Are they going to be happy about my decision? Probably. Might they think I did it based on their advice? Sure. Either way, it's no concern of mine, because I don't let others' whims dictate what fulfills me.


Well see, the difference between your example and the film is that, in the film, there's a third party involved: the painter. If the prank in the film didn't involve physically injuring another person or ruining the man's work (and quite possibly his job), then I'd be okay with the film pulling a prank at the end. But by pulling the prank, Ichiro is harming the painter.

Look at this from the painter's perspective: Some kid he doesn't know honks the horn of his motorcycle, which causes him to fall off his ladder, which could have hurt him, causing him to spill his paint cans, which could very easily be worth at least a day's pay (if not more), and everything that he had been working on that day has been ruined. I don't think he sees honking the horn as a prank. He probably sees Ichiro as nothing more than a stupid and messed-up kid with lots of problems and bad parents.

One thing I keep leaving out of my argument is that, even if what Ichiro does is nothing more than a prank, therefore it's okay that it goes against the moral of film, Ichiro is still harming another individual, which is exactly what the bullies were doing to him. In which case, Ichiro is now no better the bullies. Our hero, ladies and gentlemen!

I can see your point about Ichiro pulling a "different" prank to avoid this overlap, making the dramatic arc flow a little less ambiguously, but I reject out of hand the notion that his prank as-filmed represents a victory for the bullies. They might enjoy watching it, but Ichiro shouldn't give two-shits about it. Does this make Ichiro a bully in his own right? Not in my mind, but lets say for the sake of argument that he continues to be a total dick for the rest of his life. Whether I like his behavior or not, he's still living on his own terms, not being led about on a leash by bullies, crooks, or the world in general. That still works as a concept, to me.


If this were a non-children's film, and something much darker, then I'd probably buy that. But the problem is that this film is aimed for little kids. What's a five year old going to think about Ichiro's actions at the end? That bullying is okay as long as it's funny? That as long as you stand up for yourself, you can do whatever you want, including harm other people? I just don't think those are good things to teach little kids.

The question is whether one thinks the message of the movie is "stand up to bullies, but be a nice guy otherwise", or "stand up to those who would dictate your desires, and choose your own identity". If the moral is the latter, but Ichiro pranks the painter because the bullies wanted him to do so, then the message of the film is flawed. If he does it because, regardless of the reasons, he wants to do it to satisfy his own urges, then the message stands.


I find it hard to believe that Ichiro did that to satisfy his own urges. This kid as has seen other people get bullied and how it makes other people miserable. Not to mention he's been in that situation many times. He knows what feels like to be on the receiving end, and it sucks.

When I was his age, and I was being bullied, I also knew what it was like. And I thought that no one should ever be in those kind of scenarios. If someone has been bullied enough, then I'm sure that they would do whatever it takes to never become a bully, or to make sure they never bully someone. Yet here's Ichiro, someone who knows what it's like to be bullied, making someone's life miserable.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Godzilla 2000 » Fri May 25, 2012 1:11 pm

Hmmm. Maybe this deserves it's own topic, no?

Besides it being absolutely ridiculous, it's also incredibly off-topic. i mean, how'd we go from Final Wars to G's Revenge anyway? :lol:
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Ethan » Fri May 25, 2012 1:29 pm

^Discussion between the two might get mixed up, since they're both "controversial" Godzilla films.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Cimmerian Dragon » Fri May 25, 2012 2:00 pm

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:What's a five year old going to think about Ichiro's actions at the end? That bullying is okay as long as it's funny? That as long as you stand up for yourself, you can do whatever you want, including harm other people? I just don't think those are good things to teach little kids.


Well, that's a subjective judgement that starts a whole different discussion. Of course, I don't take that meaning at all, and as an 8 year old, I didn't think of it that way either. I had already endured my bullying at that point, and I learned how to put a stop to it for myself (since my teachers and the principal never gave a shit about the bully problem). But Ethan's right, sorry for swerving off-topic.



Back on topic: I didn't like the music in Final Wars. Like everything else about the film, I find it grating and out-of place. It's not that I'm looking for constant reuse of the Ifukube cues (though in an aniversary film, maybe a sampling from each composer in the series would have worked), I just didn't think the soundtrack meshed with the action of the film. Giant monsters and world-ending destruction don't equate to tinkly synth tones to me.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby ScootaVaran » Fri May 25, 2012 2:59 pm

....and thats why we hate Final wars!!!

Damn all that cause I thought it might be loved more as time passes?

Well one thing is for sure is that in 30 years we'll all still be bitchin about the little things in a movie.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby Sydney Aradi » Fri May 25, 2012 4:45 pm

and also in 30 years this film will continue to eclit a strong reaction from Godzilla fans, positive & negative
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby tymon » Fri May 25, 2012 8:09 pm

ScootaVaran wrote:Well one thing is for sure is that in 30 years we'll all still be bitchin about the little things in a movie.


The big things, too.
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Re: Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

Postby edgaguirus » Fri May 25, 2012 9:20 pm

It may be a bad film, but it will be immortal as long as there are Godzilla fans.
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