I'm New To The Godzilla Franchise

[NSZ]

Why is it so hard for some of you to accept that Toho didn't give two shits about continuity? This shouldn't be this hard to swallow.

It's NOT that hard for me to swallow (I swear to god this will get quote mined)! I for example don't actually believe the likes of The Mysterians, Battle in Outer Space, Atragon, KKE, and Space Amoeba are Showa Godzilla canon.

It just irks me when people make statements like saying 'there's nothing to suggest Toho's Frankenstein films are Godzilla canon'. And when I provided three suggestions/examples/whatfuckingever as to why they might be canon, without using DAM, you just basically just rolled your eyes and did the hand gesture people do when writing a guy off, so naturally I'm gonna get all pissed and defensive.

[Legion1979]

Anyone want a good reason why Frankenstein vs Baragon isn't canon to the Godzilla series?

Because everyone is surprised as shit that a monster like Baragon even exists and they treat it as something unusual. Which they WOULDN'T if monsters like Godzilla, Rodan, Varan and Angilas already existed

[James23873]

Oh wow, I come back to find a whole debate blossomed over my post.

The reason I consider those films canon is simply because that's my interpretation of the showa timeline. The series continuity is so loose that it really is up to the viewer. Look at the classic universal films, how many times was Dracula killed, or the wolf man, only to come back in the next film with no explanation whatsoever. It's all loose continuity, and up for interpretation.

By the way, Toho Kingdom's Monster bios for Gorosaurus and Manda say they're the same monsters from DAM. I assume there's some official source for those two for it to be included in the main site.

Anyways, whether canon or not, it's still nice to see those films and get the reference for when you do see DAM. Which is why I included them in my original post.

[Goji]

Except that Gorosaurus was only slightly taller than Kong (who was 20 meters) in KING KONG ESCAPES, while he was suddenly a good 45 meters (almost as tall as Godzilla) in DAM. I have no idea where the "35 meters" estimate is coming from, because it doesn't make sense for either of his appearences.

I have no idea who wrote those bio's, but they're in dire need of rewrites. A lot of them simply don't make any sense, and attempt to connect films that clearly aren't connected to each other (KKE and DAM).

So Gorosaurus recovered from his battle with Kong, then somehow went through some kind of time paradox, making his way into the Godzilla universe, and grew an extra 20 meters in the process? Yeah, I don't think so.

[Kaiju-King42]

Except that Gorosaurus was only slightly taller than Kong (who was 20 meters) in KING KONG ESCAPES, while he was suddenly a good 45 meters (almost as tall as Godzilla) in DAM. I have no idea where the "35 meters" estimate is coming from, because it doesn't make sense for either of his appearances.

I always just figured he was a juvenile at the time.

[Goji]

...No. Are you serious? Then how do you explain him coming back to life?

KING KONG ESCAPES is a live action version of the American King Kong cartoon. It's not canon with anything.

I swear, there's just no getting through to some of you.

[Legion1979]

Continuity is EVERYTHING!!

[Tim85]

First of all, welcome to the forum and the franchise. And thank you for proving my idea that Godzilla will never truely die because people are always discovering his movies.

Second, do you have a FYE or something similar close to where you live? You can almost always find Godzilla movies there. Yes, sometimes they may be expensive but you may luck out and catch them on sale. And a word of warning, if you like Final Wars, try not to talk it up as one of the best. There have been some nasty discussions over that. I would be careful reading reviews too closely for several of his films because one person's favorite film is another's worst.

Sit back, relax, and enjoy yourself discovering these films. Also remember: if you can get the Japanese version of the film: go with that one. 9 times out of 10 they're the better version.

[Tamura]

If you accept dubbing and don't think of it as the worst practice imaginable since colorization, you will see that a good deal of Toho English versions are not as horrible as their fans say. I suggest that you see whatever versions of these films you can find and draw your own opinions.

[DaveTheAnalyzer]

As for your lack of fondness of Emiko, I got the impression she's the type who tries not to hurt anyone by being truthful, but this only causes damage in the long run. I kind of like that the love triangle involves three flawed, but ultimately good people.

I haven't seen the first film in such a long while that I thought Serizawa was a bit of a jerk. But after watching both versions, he's actually quite polite, if understandably aloof. I like him, though I don't bash Emiko for not being committed to him. For one, Emiko has the right to marry whoever she chooses. For another, though Serizawa was heartbroken, he supported her decision in the end.

I hope you enjoy Godzilla Raids Again, if you ever get to it. I'm the type who must see things in chronological order no matter what! It's not the first film, but it's fun (Plus, you see Godzilla and Anguirus go First Love at Attempted Murder).

[Kaiju-King42]

...No. Are you serious? Then how do you explain him coming back to life?

KING KONG ESCAPES is a live action version of the American King Kong cartoon. It's not canon with anything.

I swear, there's just no getting through to some of you.

Just answering your question about Goro being small compared to the DAM one. I never said he survived.

Some people take these things way too seriously.

[Goji]

...No. Are you serious? Then how do you explain him coming back to life?

KING KONG ESCAPES is a live action version of the American King Kong cartoon. It's not canon with anything.

I swear, there's just no getting through to some of you.

Just answering your question about Goro being small compared to the DAM one. I never said he survived.

Some people take these things way too seriously.

I didn't ask a question, you simply gave me your nonsensical theory about it.

The only people "taking it too seriously" are the ones that think all of these films are connected somehow, which includes you. They don't. Deal with it.

[yaburu]

I'm going to put this fire out while it's still small.

I think it's important to remember that back when the Showa series was being made, the filmmakers gave nary a shit about this thing called continuity, which fans these days seem to damn near use as lubricant to pleasure themselves to. Different time, different attitude my children. The timeline was as loose as a middle-aged hooker, and just as open to what you wanted to do with it.

So, put simply, stop arguing about it. Just take your opinion and stick with it, knowing it's valid and right.

[DoctorMafune]

Anyone want a good reason why Frankenstein vs Baragon isn't canon to the Godzilla series?

Because everyone is surprised as shit that a monster like Baragon even exists and they treat it as something unusual. Which they WOULDN'T if monsters like Godzilla, Rodan, Varan and Angilas already existed

I can see your point. However, in Terror of MechaGodzilla, Interpol agents and Oceanographic Exploitation Institute personnel alike seemed astonished that a dinosaur had attacked a submarine... despite the fact that Godzilla is well known by that point, and Angilas is definitely in continuity (from the prior film), etc, as are Rodan, King Ghidorah and Manda, according to Katsura.

I haven't gone back to check subtitles on the Japanese version of the ToMG conference room scene, but it seems clear from their facial expressions (limited acting abilities, notwithstanding) that they're all supposed to be amazed that an aquatic dinosaur exists... and they shouldn't be.

Both instances could be chalked up to sloppy writing. But someone looking for Toho's equivalent of a no-prize could argue that what's astonishing people about Baragon in FvB is that, unlike Godzilla, Rodan, Varan and Angilas, this (semi-)giant monster has managed to cause devastation and loss of life in Japan while staying largely hidden. That would really spook the Hell out of some people... that even if you bolt when you hear air raid sirens or stay out of large cities (their favorite stomping grounds) altogether, these enormous critters can come and get you in the middle of nowhere. (Kitamatsu and gangster-flattening rocks on beaches would be precedents, but not necessarily well known ones.) Just a thought.

I can't think of any excuses for kaiju-based cluelessness at Interpol or the OEI, in 1975.

[Living Corpse]

I can see your point. However, in Terror of MechaGodzilla, Interpol agents and Oceanographic Exploitation Institute personnel alike seemed astonished that a dinosaur had attacked a submarine... despite the fact that Godzilla is well known by that point, and Angilas is definitely in continuity (from the prior film), etc, as are Rodan, King Ghidorah and Manda, according to Katsura.

Maybe they're just shocked to see a new monster. At that point so many monsters have made themselves known that it seemed unlikely that one was still hiding, so many that were hiding made themselves known pretty much roughly the same time as one another.

[NSZ]

Maybe they're just shocked to see a new monster. At that point so many monsters have made themselves known that it seemed unlikely that one was still hiding, so many that were hiding made themselves known pretty much roughly the same time as one another.

Wasn't Mafune ousted from the scientific community over his claim of discovering Titanosaurus? I mean, if we're to believe what the film says, he made that claim at some point during the period when giant prehistoric monsters were appearing out the whazoo, right? I don't know about you guys, but to me, this just screams that the majority of scientists in the Showa series were incredibly dumb.

[Megalon-5]

Wasn't Mafune ousted from the scientific community over his claim of discovering Titanosaurus? I mean, if we're to believe what the film says, he made that claim at some point during the period when giant prehistoric monsters were appearing out the whazoo, right? I don't know about you guys, but to me, this just screams that the majority of scientists in the Showa series were incredibly dumb.

I have a little pet theory about Mafune's banishment. I've always thought that Mafune made his claims about Titanosaurus in 1955, right after the events of Godzilla Raids Again. It says in the film that it was 20 years ago and I sorta think that after the Osaka attack, Mafune's claims that he found a dinosaur and that he could control it where seen in poor taste, like he was trying to capitalize on the kaiju attack. I know the Showa continuity is very loose, but I kinda like to think that Mafune presented his discovery at a bad time which led to his banishment.

As for the other films like the Frankenstein duology, Atragon,Mysterians,Dogora, Yog, Varan, Mothra, Rodan and King Kong Escapes, it seems only two of them connect with the Godzilla world (Mothra and Rodan), albeit very loosely. As for the others, I don't think Toho intended them to connect and while they're not part of the Showa Godzilla continuity, I like to view them as part of the Showa timeline, although it takes a little imagination to make them fit. Not too mention the human characters being astounded every time a monster shows up like Baragon or Kong showing up. Again, I know that they're not canon to the Godzilla series, but I kinda like to view that they are.

[DoctorMafune]

Wasn't Mafune ousted from the scientific community over his claim of discovering Titanosaurus? I mean, if we're to believe what the film says, he made that claim at some point during the period when giant prehistoric monsters were appearing out the whazoo, right? I don't know about you guys, but to me, this just screams that the majority of scientists in the Showa series were incredibly dumb.

I have a little pet theory about Mafune's banishment. I've always thought that Mafune made his claims about Titanosaurus in 1955, right after the events of Godzilla Raids Again. It says in the film that it was 20 years ago and I sorta think that after the Osaka attack, Mafune's claims that he found a dinosaur and that he could control it where seen in poor taste, like he was trying to capitalize on the kaiju attack. I know the Showa continuity is very loose, but I kinda like to think that Mafune presented his discovery at a bad time which led to his banishment.

As for the other films like the Frankenstein duology, Atragon,Mysterians,Dogora, Yog, Varan, Mothra, Rodan and King Kong Escapes, it seems only two of them connect with the Godzilla world (Mothra and Rodan), albeit very loosely. As for the others, I don't think Toho intended them to connect and while they're not part of the Showa Godzilla continuity, I like to view them as part of the Showa timeline, although it takes a little imagination to make them fit. Not too mention the human characters being astounded every time a monster shows up like Baragon or Kong showing up. Again, I know that they're not canon to the Godzilla series, but I kinda like to view that they are.

I like your theory about Mafune being dismissed not because his colleagues thought he was lying about Titanosaurus, but because it seemed he was using (a traumatized) post-GRA public consciousness about giant monsters to get attention for himself and his plan to control such monsters. If I remember correctly, the English version of the film said it had been 15 years prior to 1975 that he left, but his campaign for funding could have started years earlier than that. It also makes sense that Mafune would be particularly embittered, if he believed he could have helped to stop a lot of the monster attacks in the intervening years, and had been made an outcast, instead. It's easy to see how his bitterness and rage at the injustice and stupidity of it all could fester until he decided that human society was largely getting what it deserved (even though most of the victims of those attacks had had no say in the matter.)

As for which films are canon / part of the continuity and which ones aren't, I agree that it's open to interpretation and largely a matter of taste. For me, the existence of Baragon (or a Baragon, anyway) in Destroy All Monsters ties FvB to the Godzilla mythos, but it's equally possible to argue that it's just a different continuity using the same 'character,' just as Baragon's appearance in GMK doesn't tie that film into FvB. It's clear in GMK that contemporary Japanese have never seen Baragon before.

[Living Corpse]

Maybe they're just shocked to see a new monster. At that point so many monsters have made themselves known that it seemed unlikely that one was still hiding, so many that were hiding made themselves known pretty much roughly the same time as one another.

Wasn't Mafune ousted from the scientific community over his claim of discovering Titanosaurus? I mean, if we're to believe what the film says, he made that claim at some point during the period when giant prehistoric monsters were appearing out the whazoo, right? I don't know about you guys, but to me, this just screams that the majority of scientists in the Showa series were incredibly dumb.

What Megalon 5 said, we don't know when he discovered Titanosarus, for all we know he could have discovered him years before the first Godzilla even showed up in 1954 (the doc was pretty old by the time TOMG happened) so he might have made the claim long before monsters became a fact of life.

It also makes sense that Mafune would be particularly embittered, if he believed he could have helped to stop a lot of the monster attacks in the intervening years, and had been made an outcast, instead.

Titanosarus could have been a savior. Instead he became a slave.


What a shame.

[B34sT]

According to the subs in the Classic Media release, Mafune was banished because he wanted to control Titanosaurus. The other scientist did not believe it was ethical that humans have the right to control other creatures. It didn't have to do with a bizarre claim about a dinosaur.