Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

[GotengoXGodzilla]

It really doesn't pay tribute to the Showa era. Just because it referenced a whole bunch of Showa events and said, "Hey! Remember these things? They were pretty cool, huh?" That's a reference, not a tribute.

A tribute would be taking something, essentially putting it on a pedestal and talking about how great it is. Holding it to a higher degree and making other people realize how amazing it. GFW does not do that for the Showa era. Not in the slightest.

Final Wars doesn't just use references. The tone is light, the fights are back to being frantic with actual punches, and for the first time since Terror of Mechagodzilla aliens invade.

Light tone? Absolutely not. People are dying left and right. There are some gruesome and grizzly deaths to both humans and monsters. Any film with so many deaths and general lack of care does not have a light tone.

Frantic fights? Yeah, GFW has them. But I can't think of any "frantic" fights from the Showa era, so I fail to see how that's a reference to the Showa era. Most fights in the Showa era actually take their time. That's the opposite of frantic.

Actual punches? Outside of the final fight, Godzilla never throw a punch in GFW. Also, punching was in more than just the Showa era, so again, I fail to see how that's a reference to the Showa era.

Aliens invading? So what? That doesn't automatically make that a reference to the Showa era. Lots of films have alien invasion.

Maybe it's not attempting to say how great the Showa era is, but from what I and many others got from it was a tribute to the 60's and 70's eras, complete with aliens in spandex.

One, if it's not attempting to say how great the Showa era is, then it's not a tribute. Two, aliens in spandex doesn't mean anything. Lots of non-Showa era aliens have been in spandex. Hell, they're more dressed like people in The Matrix, with their long black spandex outfits and coats.

Aliens in spandex =/= Reference to Showa era

[Destroyer]

Light tone? Absolutely not. People are dying left and right. There are some gruesome and grizzly deaths to both humans and monsters. Any film with so many deaths and general lack of care does not have a light tone.

Frantic fights? Yeah, GFW has them. But I can't think of any "frantic" fights from the Showa era, so I fail to see how that's a reference to the Showa era. Most fights in the Showa era actually take their time. That's the opposite of frantic.

Actual punches? Outside of the final fight, Godzilla never throw a punch in GFW. Also, punching was in more than just the Showa era, so again, I fail to see how that's a reference to the Showa era.


Aliens invading? So what? That doesn't automatically make that a reference to the Showa era. Lots of films have alien invasion.

You know what I mean by light tone. Take an episode of the original Ultraman for example. Pretty much every episode was light toned, yet that that didn't stop it from having monsters getting dismembered. Maybe frantic is the wrong term I'm using. But let's say compare battle from a Heisei film to a Showa film to a Millennium film. Final Wars has that craziness from the older movies as opposed to the more animal like fights or beam wars.

Well yeah, but this is in G terms, we're not gonna bring in other films having alien invasions. Godzilla may have not started the whole invasion thing, but Final Wars brought it back.

One, if it's not attempting to say how great the Showa era is, then it's not a tribute. Two, aliens in spandex doesn't mean anything. Lots of non-Showa era aliens have been in spandex. Hell, they're more dressed like people in The Matrix, with their long black spandex outfits and coats.

Aliens in spandex =/= Reference to Showa era

I think it's more of a tribute/slight parody of the Showa era. (Godzilla's beam destroying whole monsters being part of the parody aspect.) But are you saying that you see absolutely nothing of the Showa era in this film? I guess we just view the film differently.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

You know what I mean by light tone.

...No, I don't. Nothing about GFW's tone is light in the slightest. There's no way around that. Any film that is so morbid enough to show so many deaths and not even blink an eye is not light.

Maybe frantic is the wrong term I'm using. But let's say compare battle from a Heisei film to a Showa film to a Millennium film. Final Wars has that craziness from the older movies as opposed to the more animal like fights or beam wars.

Um...no. GFW's fights are very animal like and have at least a few beam wars. If the fights in GFW resemble any one era, it's the Heisei era.

Well yeah, but this is in G terms, we're not gonna bring in other films having alien invasions.

Why not? GFW so easily brings in other films like it's no big deal. As far as I can see, it's only fair to bring up other alien invasion films, especially since this one is done so poorly.

Godzilla may have not started the whole invasion thing, but Final Wars brought it back.

...

Whatever you say man.

Also, I still fail to see how just because the film has an alien invasion, that it's a Showa era reference, let alone a tribute.

I think it's more of a tribute/slight parody of the Showa era.

....What the...you just said that GFW wasn't attempting to say how great the Showa era is. Therefore, it can't be a tribute. Seriously, make up your mind! Is it a tribute, or isn't it? Also, if it were both a tribute and a parody, the film is sending some seriously mixed up messages that would confuse the hell out of fans. You can't have something that's both a parody and a tribute. You can have one or the other, but never both.

But are you saying that you see absolutely nothing of the Showa era in this film? I guess we just view the film differently.

No, I see the Showa era bits. But those are references, not tributes. And they way they use those references just make me want to smack Kitamura upside the head.

The Showa era is there, but it's done so poorly that it becomes insulting to watch. So much so that I find that it would have been better if it didn't reference the Showa era at all. And the way that you're saying the film references the Showa just doesn't work.

[Captain Aktion]

This is probably the most burdensome film in the entire series for me to sit through. I really don't like much about it.

Having said that, I can totally understand why some people DO really enjoy it and none of that negates the elements I don't cotton to. I have watched this film with a room full of rowdy film fans who don't know Rodan from Gigan and they really, really had a good time. Who am I to take that away from them? It has nothing to do with me being of a higher mind, a better critic, or a more knowledgeable fan; it's all about taste. My taste isn't better or more valuable than yours because, frankly, all of us are just an audience in the theater. We don't get to write it or determine what is the best avenue of presentation. There are scores of people who are schooled, trained, and paid to do just this thing. I hate the idea of it as much as the next non-conformist "free-mind", but that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme. We can argue about what the box-office meant to the franchise, we can debate whether the approach was the right idea, we can disagree on intrinsic elements of the production itself...but when it comes to enjoyment? Seems ironic. We're all fans of a property that gets little mainstream love and virtually none of that little bit has anything to do with why WE actually like it. Obviously, we are of a mind that can enjoy a thing that a majority of the consensus does not. Do we not believe, Hell, recognize the fact that not everyone sees an object of entertainment in the same light? This is not politics nor a democracy, the majority say does not really matter. The majority, in the case of taste, is not the winner. Merely a different insight, much as a positive thing to say about it is.

Not calling anyone out nor insinuating any attributes of this statement to any specific members, but I feel that all of this is a bit lost in the hubbub of this fandom.

[Destroyer]

Well that's a lot to quote, so I'll just write a few simple responses here...

I guess you missed the part with Ultraman GXG. Are you then saying the film has a dark and serious tone like The Dark Knight?

Really? The 'bump-fests' resemble the Final Wars fights? The majority of those fights use monsters who are immobile (not to bash them of course, I quite like most of them,) while the Final Wars fights everyone is quick. There was never a 'slow' fight. Well, besides the final fight with Keizer Ghidorah.

It's a reference/tribute (never mind the fact they're called Xilians) because the Showa era was famous for its many alien invasions. While the next two eras dropped it, this film brought it back to light.

I think this film was mimicking the tone of the Showa era. Whether it was meant to be a tribute or parody I don't think we'll ever know.....but does that stop it from people considering it to be a modern Showa film? No.

[Legion1979]

How could GFW have been a tribute to ANYTHING when Kitamura really didn't give a shit about Godzilla in the first place?

[Captain Aktion]

How could GFW have been a tribute to ANYTHING when Kitamura really didn't give a shit about Godzilla in the first place?

Kitamura was only the director. He didn't write it or decide on what tone and general structure it was going to have. Toho did. Then they hired a director who would match up with and reinforce what they decided to go for in this film. The French developed the idea that the director is the sole "author" of a film, but that's never really been true, especially when we're talking about studio franchise films.

Frankly, you should be saying Toho didn't give a shit; obviously they're the one's who really had no interest in paying proper tribute to Godzilla.

[Legion1979]

How could GFW have been a tribute to ANYTHING when Kitamura really didn't give a shit about Godzilla in the first place?

Kitamura was only the director. He didn't write it or decide on what tone and general structure it was going to have. Toho did. Then they hired a director who would match up with and reinforce what they decided to go for in this film. The French developed the idea that the director is the sole "author" of a film, but that's never really been true, especially when we're talking about studio franchise films.

Frankly, you should be saying Toho didn't give a shit; obviously they're the one's who really had no interest in paying proper tribute to Godzilla.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

Toho wanted a big, successful film for Godzilla's 50th anniversary that they could sell internationally and profit greatly from. They didn't want some piece of garbage that was going to bomb and cripple the franchise. Most of GFW's failings can be placed squarely on Kitamura as he had a large hand in a good deal of what went into the movie. It takes more than one person to ruin a movie, true. But GFW is definitely a director's film. Unlike Kaneko, Toho gave Kitamura lots of money and free reign on what ended up in the film. You COULD say Toho themselves was to blame for doing that in the first place, but I doubt anyone would complain if they had done that in 2001 as opposed to 2004. I'd bet Kaneko, Tezuka or (hell) Owakara would have give us a much better and far more respectful film with the budget Kitamura was given if they had the chance. Toho gave the job to the wrong person, but that doesn't make Kitamura blameless. Not by a f@cking long shot.

You act as if Toho should get full blame because they don't really give a shit about Godzilla anyway, which is ridiculous.

[Captain Aktion]

*sigh*

Yes, it was Toho's fault and their mess. Kitamura wouldn't be directing the film if Toho hadn't approached him about it. They had obviously decided what kind of take they wanted on the film and hired a director who would line up and reinforce their concepts for it. If you're SO sure that Kitamura doesn't "give a shit" about Godzilla then would it be fair for me to say he also didn't "give a shit" about lobbying for the directors seat? Toho came after him for the gig and based on everything he had directed before, there was no reason for Toho to expect anything different from him. Frankly, and I don't like his direction anymore than I'm sure that you do, Legion, but it isn't Kitamura's fault. He was hired to do what he does and was probably encouraged along by Toho the entire time. They wanted him to do what he does and gave him the means and budget to do so with the property they own.

Yeah; I'd say they're pretty damned culpable for their product. You can't praise Toho for when they get it right then blame an individual when they don't.

[Living Corpse]

*sigh*

Yes, it was Toho's fault and their mess. Kitamura wouldn't be directing the film if Toho hadn't approached him about it. They had obviously decided what kind of take they wanted on the film and hired a director who would line up and reinforce their concepts for it. If you're SO sure that Kitamura doesn't "give a shit" about Godzilla then would it be fair for me to say he also didn't "give a shit" about lobbying for the directors seat? Toho came after him for the gig and based on everything he had directed before, there was no reason for Toho to expect anything different from him. Frankly, and I don't like his direction anymore than I'm sure that you do, Legion, but it isn't Kitamura's fault. He was hired to do what he does and was probably encouraged along by Toho the entire time. They wanted him to do what he does and gave him the means and budget to do so with the property they own.

Yeah; I'd say they're pretty damned culpable for their product. You can't praise Toho for when they get it right then blame an individual when they don't.

Um Cap, He's admited that he only did it cause he thought it would get Hollywood to notice him.

[Legion1979]

Uh huh, CA. I'm sure what Toho got out of that film was exactly what they wanted from the get-go. Yup.

You keep believing that.

[Captain Aktion]

I do believe that. Now whether or not what they wanted turned out to be successful or be received in the way they wanted it to be is another story...I don't get why these are difficult distinctions to make. I know it's easier for you when you have a whipping boy, Legion, but there aren't straw-men behind everything you don't like. Sometimes business is ACTUALLY business.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Well that's a lot to quote, so I'll just write a few simple responses here...

I guess you missed the part with Ultraman GXG. Are you then saying the film has a dark and serious tone like The Dark Knight?

I don't care about your Ultraman example, because it has no effect on someone who doesn't know anything about Ultraman.

I never said that the film has a dark and serious tone. I'm just saying that the film doesn't have a light tone either. Morbid and non-caring =/= light.

Really? The 'bump-fests' resemble the Final Wars fights?

Those fights resemble the fights in GFW more than the fights in the Showa era, that's for sure. Un-ordinary smacks and hits, beam wars, etc.

The majority of those fights use monsters who are immobile (not to bash them of course, I quite like most of them,) while the Final Wars fights everyone is quick. There was never a 'slow' fight. Well, besides the final fight with Keizer Ghidorah.

Size and mobility has nothing to do with it.

Also, if the fights in GFW were so quick, then they resemble the Showa era fights even less. There were little to no quick fights in the Showa era. Most of them took their time. The fights in GFW were "blink and you miss them" fast.

It's a reference/tribute (never mind the fact they're called Xilians) because the Showa era was famous for its many alien invasions. While the next two eras dropped it, this film brought it back to light.

...That doesn't mean jack shit. It could very easily be referencing other alien invasion films that weren't Godzilla related, like War Of The Worlds or Independence Day. Just because it has an alien invasion in it, does not suddenly make the film a reference to the Showa era, let alone a tribute.

Also, I've heard the Futurians from Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah referred to as aliens, as they are something that is beyond our comprehension, unknown to us and have far superior technology. So I would say that the Heisei series has it's own alien invasion.

Also, Godzilla 2000 is about an alien invasion.

I think this film was mimicking the tone of the Showa era.

If it's trying to mimick the tone of the Showa era, then it's doing a terrible job at it. As I've previously said, the tone of GFW is morbid and non-caring. It kills people off like nobody's business, and it doesn't care about those that it kills off. The Showa era doesn't do that.

.but does that stop it from people considering it to be a modern Showa film?

...Yes!

For one thing, GFW is far from a modern Showa film. Not even close to one. Second, if it the film doesn't pay tribute to the Showa era, then it's even less like a modern Showa film, especially in this day and age. Third, anyone who thinks that GFW is a modern Showa film really needs to analyze the reoccurring themes, characters, stories and elements of the Showa era, and then compare it to GFW. Anyone who does this would take two seconds to realize that GFW is basically one giant middle finger to the Showa era. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call that a tribute at all.

As for the other argument that broke out, as I've said before, I would say that both Kitamura and Toho are equally to blame for the failure that was GFW. Kitamura is to blame for not realizing the situation that he was put in, and trying to make something that wasn't like his last few films. Instead, we got the same film from him that we've gotten in the past, only with a few monsters added in. Toho is to blame for putting Kitamura in that situation and not having him on a tighter leash. Toho put more money into this then just about any other film before, so you would really think they would want to make sure Kitamura didn't screw it up. Kitamura screwed up for being in charge of this crappy film, and Toho screwed up for not realizing it sooner and not doing something about it.

[shinmattiathekaiju]

He's comparing GFW to the showa era because of Godzilla's shenaningas i think.

[Destroyer]

Example of how violent Ultraman can get. http://youtu.be/VpfGPLgGBeM

The Futurians are from the future, they're still Earthlings. And 2000 is a bit of a stretch since it's just Orga. But I'm talking humanoid alien invasions.

Well I'm sure the people that DO consider it to be a tribute are just as big of a Godzilla fan and know the Showa era well. I still consider it to be a tribute nonetheless. I get everything you're saying, but some just view it and think of the 60's and 70's in mind, that's just the way it works.

[shinmattiathekaiju]

Example of how violent Ultraman can get. http://youtu.be/VpfGPLgGBeM

Woah! Never saw this hardcore version of the Muppets.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Example of how violent Ultraman can get. http://youtu.be/VpfGPLgGBeM

You're still missing the point. GFW does not have a light tone. It's tone is morbid and somewhat dark.

The Futurians are from the future, they're still Earthlings.

That's not the point. They're still beyond our comprehension, have futuristic technology that we can't even begin to understand, and they're basically unknown to us in every possible way. That's the definition of an alien.

Just because something comes from earth, doesn't mean it's not an alien. You could very easily say that someone who isn't the same ethnicity as you is an alien. They're unknown to you and come from a different place.

And 2000 is a bit of a stretch since it's just Orga. But I'm talking humanoid alien invasions.

Orga's an alien, who wants to invade earth. That's an alien invasion.

And no, you never said humanoid alien invasions. You just said alien invasion.

Well I'm sure the people that DO consider it to be a tribute are just as big of a Godzilla fan and know the Showa era well.

Obviously not, if they haven't analyzed the Showa era's various aspects, themes, characters, stories, etc. Any one who has done that could very easily come to the conclusion that GFW is in no way a tribute to the Showa era. It really isn't that hard to do.

I still consider it to be a tribute nonetheless.

Then you really haven't been paying attention to what I've been saying, or anything that's been going on in this topic. Congratulations, you're impossible and stubborn!

I get everything you're saying, but some just view it and think of the 60's and 70's in mind, that's just the way it works.

Hate to break it you, but the people that think that aren't thinking it all the way through.

[Destroyer]

OK, so now you're saying it's somewhat dark when a few posts ago you said

I never said that the film has a dark and serious tone.

Perhaps 'spacemen' would be the better term then. The Showa era was famous for its many humanoid invasions, which would not get repeated until Final Wars.

Or maybe cause ya know, that's how one views the film and its relation to the Showa era. Maybe they have analyzed the Showa era, maybe they view it differently than you. If a lot of fans say it's a tribute, are you saying every single one of them has no clue what the Showa era is about? That's interesting.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

OK, so now you're saying it's somewhat dark when a few posts ago you said

I never said that the film has a dark and serious tone.

Yup. It has a somewhat dark tone. There's a difference between a dark tone and somewhat dark done.

Perhaps 'spacemen' would be the better term then. The Showa era was famous for its many humanoid invasions, which would not get repeated until Final Wars.

...Ugh. Seriously, stop doing this. This very annoying and it really doesn't help your point. You're trying to rework your argument by rephrasing words that no one has every used before for these kinds of things.

Also, the Showa era is not famous for it's alien invasions. It's famous for a lot of things, but not alien invasions.

Or maybe cause ya know, that's how one views the film and its relation to the Showa era.

If they think that, they're not seeing the full picture.

Maybe they have analyzed the Showa era, maybe they view it differently than you.

The themes, characters, stories, etc., are all very clear for the Showa era. There really isn't much room for interpretation and variety among analysis. And it's very clearly different from GFW.

If a lot of fans say it's a tribute, are you saying every single one of them has no clue what the Showa era is about? That's interesting.

If a lot of fans say it's a tribute, then those fans need a new definition of "tribute", and need to really look at the Showa era as a whole and what it stands for.

[Godzilla 2000]

People need to learn the difference between "dark and serious" and "violent and graphic."

The early Ultraman shows were usually violent and sometimes very graphic, but it didnt have a dark tone.

Godzilla, on the other hand, is usually portrayed in a more serious manner, but is almost never terribly violent or graphic.


GFW, though, was TOO serious.

[/mini-rant]