Gamera 3 - The Negatives

[Stuckey]

Inspired by the GMK Negatives thread.

My number one complaint with Gamera 3 is definitely the characters. I feel as though they all are just whiny punks. I do not feel any attachment to the main girl, what's her name...Ayane? I would have been fine if she had been killed in the final battle, because she just didn't really feel like she mattered. And her boyfriend-like guy, yeah. Wish a Gyaos would have ate him.

Also, I feel as if Kaneko started getting lost in his own film. The mythology and mysticism just seems pushed to hard onto the audience. Yeah, the movie is supposed to have a lot of the mythology in there, but it seems overbearing more than anything else and it just takes up too much of the plot, IMO.

And we can't forget the final fight...pretty lame really.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash on this film just 'cause. I really do enjoy the film, some of the scenes are amazing to watch. Overall I just feel that this movie overshadows G1 and G2 way too much, and I think that those two movies are a little bit better than the third. Especially G2, I love that movie.

Let the cries of outrage begin!
Oh, and don't forget to post your negatives also if you have any.

[FlawedCoil82]

Well the final fight was what ruined it for me. I didn't like that Gamera couldn't hit Iris at least once with a fireball. It was more of a shoving match until the tendril went through Gamera's hand. Gamera seemed to do more damage to himself than Iris did. And the "firehand" was another absurd "Gamera can do WHATEVER he wants to defeat an enemy" ploy. The best parts about Gamera 3 were the special effects and the ending after Iris is defeated when they play the track "The Guardian Beast" when they are waking up Ayana and she apologizes. I love that music and it at least somewhat makes up for the lackluster fight.
Jack

[tokyostateofmind]

Inspired by the GMK Negatives thread.

My number one complaint with Gamera 3 is definitely the characters. I feel as though they all are just whiny punks. I do not feel any attachment to the main girl, what's her name...Ayane? I would have been fine if she had been killed in the final battle, because she just didn't really feel like she mattered. And her boyfriend-like guy, yeah. Wish a Gyaos would have ate him.

Also, I feel as if Kaneko started getting lost in his own film. The mythology and mysticism just seems pushed to hard onto the audience. Yeah, the movie is supposed to have a lot of the mythology in there, but it seems overbearing more than anything else and it just takes up too much of the plot, IMO.

And we can't forget the final fight...pretty lame really.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash on this film just 'cause. I really do enjoy the film, some of the scenes are amazing to watch. Overall I just feel that this movie overshadows G1 and G2 way too much, and I think that those two movies are a little bit better than the third. Especially G2, I love that movie.

Let the cries of outrage begin!
Oh, and don't forget to post your negatives also if you have any.

Gamera 3 is one of my favorite Kaiju films. It was much better than the previous entries in the trilogy. I don't see the characters as being as whiny. I mean, i think this film is a lot more emotional than many other Gamera films. G1 was a typical Kaiju-fest. To me i got a lot of B-movie sense out of it. and Otani's score was lacking a lot, although he did introduce the new Gamera theme, which isn't really my favorite but it his up their on my list. Perhaps it was because it was the first, but i mean, it had no depth, no emotion, and the characters weren't as emotionally rooted. I hardly remember G2. That may because I haven't seen it as often, but I think it is more because it wasn't memorable to me. I remember Legion, but the story sort of seemed not complete. This might be because Kaneko had the vision of G3 in his mind and he really wanted to get there. G2 just seemed like a filler. But, G3 was a huge improvement on the series and really fit as the grand finale. It was very entertaining. I think it could be dry to some people because of its attention to detail rather than monsters. It was rooted in emotion rather than action. I mean the visuals. You can't get any better than that. The visual effects are some of the best I have seen of kaiju films to this day. Kaneko went all out to make the Kaiju picture he wanted to make. Otani's score is hauntingly beautiful, much better than his previous two and different than GMK's. Ayana's emotion was there. Her grudge for Gamera was very clearly, and it was represented well in Irys' nature. There was nothing wrong with her boyfriend. I mean, he was a lot more realistic character in kaiju films than others. I saw nothing wrong with her boyfriend. He seemed to play his character really well. I loved that they showed the worldwide damage of the battle. It was also one of the first kaiju movies were they went out of country to investigate a kaiju sighting. I mean I heard places' names I would never think to hear in Gamera 3 (Cairo). I can go on and on about this film, but for the sake of spacing and environment (message board). I will stop it here.
I think it really depends on what people want in Kaiju film, I wanted emotion and character development, and I got it. I think i was so wrapped into the characters that it didn't phase me at the Gamera Irys fight. I would of totally love to see the effects I enjoyed throughout the movie full out, destroying the city they were in. But i think that for budgetary reasons, it wouldn't work.I enjoyed the emotional struggle (fight) that happened at the end, which ended well, but i mean, I agree it could have been cranked up a notch. The movie was great, it really was. It had everything that wasn't in most other movies. But I think it is all up to the viewer and what his typical great Kaiju movie is. Fights or emotion.

[Darkness]

I notice a lot of people really don't like the final fight with Iris. I guess I'm in the minority that actually enjoys it. Sure, it may just be a shoving match between two large kaiju, but the thing that I enjoyed about it was how the human drama was parallel with the monster drama through the course of the scene. It's not like the scene focuses solely on two kaiju shoving eachother back and forth, I love how at the same time Asagi is trying to talk some sense into Ayana that what she's doing is wrong. Plus, the music adds a lot to it as well.

[tokyostateofmind]

I notice a lot of people really don't like the final fight with Iris. I guess I'm in the minority that actually enjoys it. Sure, it may just be a shoving match between two large kaiju, but the thing that I enjoyed about it was how the human drama was parallel with the monster drama through the course of the scene. It's not like the scene focuses solely on two kaiju shoving eachother back and forth, I love how at the same time Asagi is trying to talk some sense into Ayana that what she's doing is wrong. Plus, the music adds a lot to it as well.

Amen brutha.

[Inferno Rodan]

I notice a lot of people really don't like the final fight with Iris. I guess I'm in the minority that actually enjoys it. Sure, it may just be a shoving match between two large kaiju, but the thing that I enjoyed about it was how the human drama was parallel with the monster drama through the course of the scene. It's not like the scene focuses solely on two kaiju shoving eachother back and forth, I love how at the same time Asagi is trying to talk some sense into Ayana that what she's doing is wrong. Plus, the music adds a lot to it as well.

It's the final battle of the damn movie, and the finale of the series. It SHOULD be about the monsters beating up on each other, dammit.

Frankly, the thing that bugs me even more than the battle sucking was the fact that it started off AMAZING. The aerial sequence was absolutely stunning. But then the monsters touched the ground, and the fight instantly ground to a complete halt. I mean seriously, it makes the Heisei Godzilla bump battles look like friggin' martial arts in comparison.

Also, Gamera's completely inept. I'm fine with monsters doing things just for the sake of looking cool, but when you have to make said monster do something completely retarded in order to pull it off, it's incredibly irritating. "Hmm, my arm is pinned to the wall, and my opponent is about to shoot me. His face is also right in front of mine, and I can shoot explosive fireballs from my mouth. OH! I KNOW! I'LL BLOW OFF MY OWN ARM AND USE THE STUMP TO CATCH HIS ATTACKS! BRILLIANT!"

Aside from that, the movie is way too full of itself. It adds all this unnecessary mythological junk that makes no real sense just for the sake of trying to somehow add meaning to the conflict (which ultimately fails anyway).

[HayesAJones]

I adore this movie and really can't find any negatives. If anything, the mythology is kinda hard to follow. As for the other complaints, I feel that Kaneko sacrificed action for story, drama, and emotion. And overall, I think that was a good sacrifice.

[g2kmaster]

I notice a lot of people really don't like the final fight with Iris. I guess I'm in the minority that actually enjoys it. Sure, it may just be a shoving match between two large kaiju, but the thing that I enjoyed about it was how the human drama was parallel with the monster drama through the course of the scene. It's not like the scene focuses solely on two kaiju shoving eachother back and forth, I love how at the same time Asagi is trying to talk some sense into Ayana that what she's doing is wrong. Plus, the music adds a lot to it as well.

Amen brutha.

Ah hell yes. Hell, the monster scenes pretty much take up the last 45 minutes. They may not be fast edited or have much movement but they are beautifuly and realisticaly shot.

Aside from that, the movie is way too full of itself. It adds all this unnecessary mythological junk that makes no real sense just for the sake of trying to somehow add meaning to the conflict (which ultimately fails anyway).

Ok, where do I go from here... ok, so maybe you do not appreciate the more interesting parts of the kaiju battle, such as the decents of each kaiju i CG form flwoing into suitamation and the interesting "intermission" that includes a great fire transition and a clip of the hurricane dieing down to show the moon only to be fallowed by a wide shot of Kyoto. Fine, whatever. However, when you say that Gamera blowing off his own arm was stupid, I must obstraneously object to that. If Gamera's fireballs do no damage to Iris' tentacles, then why shoot at his head which is not only made out of the same material (which I assume is some sort of naturaly growing metalic structure) and is in all likelyhood stronger than the tentacles that deflected the fire balls?

And as for the mythos, c'mon, what? How does it not make sense? Ok, I am gonna explain it now because I doubt some people here don't read G-FAN regularly:

1. The "Book of Changes" is another name for a real religious text, the "I, Ching". Only that for her own purposes (to get higher up in the goverment or just regular taking religion too far like we see many Christian organizations do), she kind of twists it along with her co-hort Kurata Shinya.
2. Gamera is gembu/minogame. This is shown because certain things in the film pretty much prove that Gamera actualy is a diety (though an Asian one, so he is not "all powerful" and booring like some people claim diety characters are) and many aspects of Gamera's personality stem from the minogame legend, such as being able to understand human languages after 1,000 years of existence.
3. Iris is the Ryuseicho. He is somewhat phoenix looking with his body color and tentacles that could have been thought of to have been feathers.
4. The kaiju are dieties through and through and not just "dieties in name" like how Godzilla was in Gojira. They are not called dieties because that is how our ancestors made sense of things. For example, Ayana being the only one to be able to pick up that rock. This is a plot point I want to make a case of. And though not technicaly cannon, there is a deleted scene (thank you G3 Laserdisc box set which kicks the ADV's disc's butt) that shows Moribe trying to pick up the stone that Ayana just brought out. And even though he just saw Ayana holding it, he cannot pick it up to save his life. So it is stuff like "fate" at this point that gives the film it's ability to go above and beyond the usual "diety" archetype in a kaiju film. Pretty much does the same thing the Daimajin films do. Or Yamato Takeru. Only in modern times.

That's the mythos in a nut shell. So what we see in G3 is pretty much the most epic battle we see. Not because it takes place in a vast area and that it is filmed well. It is because Iris and Gamera are beyond creatures with Kami. They are dieties.

Any questions?

[Legion1979]

Uh oh, look out! Someone said something negative about Evan's all-time favorite movie! Run! Run!! I especially love the "I guess you don't read G-Fan regularly" part. Why Evan? Do you read G-Fan regularly? Or are you just referring to an article that you wrote that appeared in one of the the only two issues you own? Just stop it.

I agree with a lot of things being said about this film. It's good, but insanely overrated. I prefer the first two (especially G2) by a wide margin. They're just more entertaining and interesting films for me. And I honestly don't care about the meaning and symbolism in it. Did it wow me? Did it entertain me? Maybe the first time, but for me it doesn't hold up to repeat viewings the way the first two do.

And 45 minutes of monster action at the end? Is your watch broken?

[g2kmaster]

Uh oh, look out! Someone said something negative about Evan's all-time favorite movie! Run! Run!! I especially love the "I guess you don't read G-Fan regularly" part. Why Evan? Do you read G-Fan regularly? Or are you just referring to an article that you wrote that appeared in one of the the only two issues you own? Just stop it.

Chill dude, I was being sarcastic.

[Stuckey]

And 45 minutes of monster action at the end? Is your watch broken?

Haha, that had me thinking the same thing.

Nah, Evan. I read your article. I understood it perfectly fine. It just isn't as epic as everyone claims it to be. It could have been extremely epic, it had the potential. But I feel Kaneko kind of got lost.
Maybe if their was a fourth movie focusing on the Gyaos swarm, or if this movie focused a little more on the threat of the Gyaos. But that would probably take away from the "epicness" of the ending.
I still like the movie, I'd just rather watch G2.

[g2kmaster]

Wait, now, when I say 45 minutes, I mean that starting from Iris being attacked by the JSDF in the forest. That counts. Hell yeah that counts.

[Legionmaster]

...But Irys looks NOTHING like a phoenix. A Phoenix is a bird, not a squid. Tentacles look nothing like feathers. Phoenixes have beaks, not glowing orbs. The phoenix also originated in Egyptian myth, so why would a civilization off the coast of Japan make something to be a phoenix? It doesn't fit, and it's forced onto the movie. If anything, the myth is set up to show that Irys isn't the Ryoseicho. Rather than some mythical beast of legend, Irys is a very real threat. He isn't a fairy tale, he's corporeal, and hungry.

[g2kmaster]

...But Irys looks NOTHING like a phoenix. A Phoenix is a bird, not a squid. Tentacles look nothing like feathers. Phoenixes have beaks, not glowing orbs. The phoenix also originated in Egyptian myth, so why would a civilization off the coast of Japan make something to be a phoenix? It doesn't fit, and it's forced onto the movie. If anything, the myth is set up to show that Irys isn't the Ryoseicho. Rather than some mythical beast of legend, Irys is a very real threat. He isn't a fairy tale, he's corporeal, and hungry.

He does have some physical similarities though. Both body color, his pointed head which kind of looks like a beak, and his wings while not feathery are there. No different than the ancient Chinese thinking that a giant aligator or croc was a dragon... I mean, are you gonna say Gamera isn't gembu or a minogame because he doesn't walk on all fours and has tusks and doesn't have a snake wraped aorund him? As for the myth, IDK about that. Such as how "Atlantis" to one culture is to another "Mu" or Hercule's slaying of the Hydra could just be another version of Susa-No-o slaying Yamato-No-Orochi. The tale could have poped up simultaneously all across the globe in different varriations. And Japan has the Ryuseicho, based on Suzaku. And it is interesting you mention Egypt, since it is attacked in the film (coincidence?).

Here's another thing about Iris' apperance and the phoenix - Asian mythos are filled with inaccuracies.

[Inferno Rodan]

Ok, where do I go from here... ok, so maybe you do not appreciate the more interesting parts of the kaiju battle, such as the decents of each kaiju i CG form flwoing into suitamation and the interesting "intermission" that includes a great fire transition and a clip of the hurricane dieing down to show the moon only to be fallowed by a wide shot of Kyoto. Fine, whatever.

...What? Where the bloody hell are you getting this? I made NO comment WHATSOEVER about the composition of the shots, the editing, or the SFX. All are beautiful.

But being pretty doesn't stop the fight from being stupidly boring once both monsters hit the ground.

Any questions?

No, because I'm not gonna do this dance with you again. We went through it a couple months back, and basically all you kept saying was "I don't get what you're saying."

[g2kmaster]

But being pretty doesn't stop the fight from being stupidly boring once both monsters hit the ground.

No, because I'm not gonna do this dance with you again. We went through it a couple months back, and basically all you kept saying was "I don't get what you're saying."

Yeah... it kind of does... it pretty much makes up for it ten fold.

Fine. Whatever.

[Stuckey]

Oh man, did you see how great the angle of the shot was when Gamera bumped into Irys? It was amazing.

Eh...Nope, doesn't really make up for it ten-fold.

[g2kmaster]

Maybe not for you. But for me, for me.

Eh, at this point it seems to be a matter of taste. I am gonna my leave from this thread.

[Godzilla 2000]

I havent seen the movie, mostly cuz the fanboys post so much fanwank that I want to avoid it, and partly cuz the DVD's tend to get pricey. And no, I'm not buying any bootlegs.

I dunno why, but just having all these rabid fans praise the film somehow makes me want to not support or watch it out of sheer principle. It's weird.

Anyone else have this feeling?

[Legionmaster]

Anyone else have this feeling?

No, because it is a pretty good movie. Fanboys will be fanboys.