New kaiju game from Matt Frank + Simon Strange [Archive]

[Mr. Strange]

I can see your point, and that makes me recall what you said in the podcasts (years ago) That you designed G:U's fighting system to allow actions to occur even though you were being attacked (example being the two kids playtesting)

Elaborating on the elimination of health bars, certain attacks or events would have to result in the match ending in this instance? A building collapsing on top of a monster, full-power weapon attack while in a vulnerable state.

Sorry to drag the conversation out, but I feel since there aren't any non disclosure agreements I would seize the opportunity to pick your brain because I have always wanted to!

Eliminating the health bars would be extreme - but I might very seriously consider going to a big number - like Smash Bros does. That leaves plenty of space for 4 HUDs on the screen, which is nice. Putting player 3 and 4 HUDs at the bottem (like STE and G:DAMM) really caused some problems trying to do things like dialog, or in-game events. Eliminating the energy bar would be simpler - just quantize it and let monsters gain/lose discrete quanta of energy. It was always a problem that if, for example, Godzilla's Fireball took 600 energy (out of 1000) a continous bar doesn't really look different with 590 or 610 energy.

Similarly, a health bar with 500 HP means that hitting for 8 damage looks pretty much the same as hitting for 5. Using numbers to show damage eliminates all that ambiguity.

Here's a way to use numbers, but put some back-and-forth into the game. As you lose health, you get closer and closer to a "Rage-like" mode. If you land a blow, the rage meter flips between you and your opponent, but does extra damage. This means if player A hits player B 5-6 times in a row, then when B finally hits back - it will be an extra heavy hit, and B has an opportunity to land extra-heavy hits for a few seconds. That encourages B to go on the offensive when losing.

Here's an idea about "cinematic roars." We've floated the idea that, instead of recharging slowly all the time, energy comes back when you roar. This would give fast monsters a reason to move out of melee range if we cut powerups - because getting far enough away to roar safely would be good strategy.
But then we could include a counter roar - if two monsters roar at just the same time, they go berzerk and charge one another. This means a slow monster (like Biollante) could force fast monsters back into melee range and/or stop them from regaining energy.

[Supergeon]

Both of those ideas are awesome, I especially like the use of roars as a strategic element in order to eliminate health and energy pickups and force a ranged weapon abuser into melee range. I would definitely be an advocate for both of these gameplay elements.

[godzilla898]

I'm not a fan of purely roaring to regain your energy. Unless their is some way to stop someone from spamming roars at any time, I feel that it could easily be abused and matches would quickly turn in to roar spam fests. The counter roar could work if done right.

[Mr. Strange]

I'm not a fan of purely roaring to regain your energy. Unless their is some way to stop someone from spamming roars at any time, I feel that it could easily be abused and matches would quickly turn in to roar spam fests. The counter roar could work if done right.

Well, the roar has to complete (3-4 seconds) before you get your energy back, so if your opponent can hit you in that time you lose out. Specifically, opponents can always burn one of their own energy cells to interrupt your attempt to get energy back.

The best times to roar are right after you knock down an opponent (which means you are roaring instead of doing a follow-up hit) or when you are far away from your opponent (which means they have no energy of their own, or you have put a building in-between.)

The counter-roar would also be a cool mechanic. So as of right now, there are more counters than ways to do the thing successfully. Clearly more design is needed!

[matrix]

A bit random, but how much money would you have to raise for it to be on consoles? I would still get it for PC, but I much rather prefer consoles.

[Hellspawn28]

Well, Grand King Ghidorah isn't too much of a stretch, since the character of King Ghidorah originally debuted in the Godzilla series. I don't recall Toho ever saying anything about not allowing certain Toho monsters in Godzilla products.

From what I remember that Toho didn't allow Rainbow Mothra for Save the Earth since Toho views the ROM movies as it's own series. Not to mention that Rodan, Varan, Baragon, Mothra, and Gorosaurus all appear in Godzilla films while none of the ROM villains have not.

[Mr. Strange]

A bit random, but how much money would you have to raise for it to be on consoles? I would still get it for PC, but I much rather prefer consoles.

Rough estimate - $300,000 to get the thing done, and another $300,000 to make a console release. I would strongly suggest, however, that we hold off on the console release initially. If we get this thing rolling, and high-quality on the PC side, then we open the door for a publisher to step in and foot the bill for console publishing costs in exchange for a share of sales.

Also, remember that the PC game will require gamepads (Xbox 360 gamepads are great, but PS3 gamepads are also USB, so either can just be plugged into your PC) so the PC experience will probably be pretty much exactly the same as the console experience.

The larger issue, as we've said a few times in this thread, is that while PC games can be patched and expanded as frequently as we like, console patches are VERY EXPENSIVE. So the longer (and larger) we get things before we make the move to console, the better in my opinion.

[MechaJahgeezilla]

So if I donate 50 dollars, everything released for this is free to me?

[Mr. Strange]

So if I donate 50 dollars, everything released for this is free to me?

Exactly. Every game, every expansion made on this framework is yours to download free of charge.

[MechaJahgeezilla]

So if I donate 50 dollars, everything released for this is free to me?

Exactly. Every game, every expansion made on this framework is yours to download free of charge.

OK, so even if the game goes to consoles, I can get a console version and all the expansion backs on a console of my choice?

[MechaJahgeezilla]

World War Kaiju

Going by Mr. Strange's criteria

[Mr. Strange]

So if I donate 50 dollars, everything released for this is free to me?

Exactly. Every game, every expansion made on this framework is yours to download free of charge.

OK, so even if the game goes to consoles, I can get a console version and all the expansion backs on a console of my choice?

Assuming it becomes a download on consoles, yes. We might very well even let contributors download it for free on all three platforms. If it goes to a disc-based purchase, however (not something I would do on my own - being speculative here) then we probably wouldn't be able to give those away free, since we would need to give profit-sharing portions to our publisher and console collaborators. That's why the reward specifies "download."

[MechaJahgeezilla]

Exactly. Every game, every expansion made on this framework is yours to download free of charge.

OK, so even if the game goes to consoles, I can get a console version and all the expansion backs on a console of my choice?

Assuming it becomes a download on consoles, yes. We might very well even let contributors download it for free on all three platforms. If it goes to a disc-based purchase, however (not something I would do on my own - being speculative here) then we probably wouldn't be able to give those away free, since we would need to give profit-sharing portions to our publisher and console collaborators. That's why the reward specifies "download."

OK, thanks for clearing this up, expect a $50 dollar donation from me when we can start donating

[Chris55]

I'm posting this for my friend Brian who had these gripes with GU and would like to see changes made for this game.

* Destoroyah is much smaller than he was in the movie
* Gigan 2004 should be a metallic blue, as opposed to the charcoal color he was given in the game
* Godzilla 1954's tail is much too long and thick, and also lacks the pointy tip of his movie counterpart
* Godzilla 2000's scales are too light in color
* Mechagodzilla 1974 shouldn't have bendable fingers; his dorsal fins shouldn't light up; his eye beams are the wrong color; his tail is much smaller than it was in the movies
* Anguirus' Supersonic Roar, Godzilla's Fireball, Jet Jaguar's Handclap, King Caesar's Laser Eyes, Mechagodzilla 1974's Flame Nose, Orga's Paralyzing Goo, Titanosaurus' Sonic Wave and Varan's Concentrated Blast should all be removed entirely (Godzilla, Mechagodzilla and Orga all have other powers that could easily replace the abilities listed)
* Biollante's Radioactive Sap Spray and Mothra Larva's Web shouldn't be able to create Beam Battles when they collide with a beam attack

None of the things here are gamebreaking, and I'd certainly admit that some of them are rather nitpicky. Still, I think that the game should be as accurate to its source as possible, and as such monsters should be using attacks they actually have, the attacks should look like they did in the movies, and the monsters themselves should look, move and fight like they did on the silver screen.



Miscellaneous ideas for the next Godzilla game

* Large buildings that are destroyed should come down a number of ways, depending on how they're eradicated, some sinking down into a pile of rubble, while others could topple over like a tree that just got axed--buildings that topple over do additional damage to anything they fall on, and can potentially be used as cover, or as an obstacle for monsters in chasing their opponents.

* Energy costs for each special ability could be unique, with Godzilla 2000's Atomic Ray costing three or four notches in the energy bar while Godzilla 90's could have a quicker, weaker beam that only requires two.

* In addition to health and energy power-ups, Oxygen Destroyers could be dropped that detonate after a few seconds and do great damage, not unlike a big grenade.

* While I think that the Health Cells from Unleashed were ultimately not a very good element of the game, I do think that allowing some monsters to regenerate health (Godzilla and Orga especially) was a good idea. Instead of Health Cells, perhaps you could do something like have certain monsters able to regenerate a certain percentage of lost health. For example, if Godzilla's health is reduced to 65%, he can regenerate back to 75%. If he gets smacked down to 43%, then he could heal up to 53%.
* Critical Mass designs were awesome, and I'd like to see them return, should this next game have Rage or Critical Mass return. I'd prefer it if the monsters' sizes would stay the same though.

* Alternate versions of monsters could be added to the game. Gigan 2004 could have his upgraded chainsaw form as an example. His moves list would largely be the same, but his attacks would be stronger and more sluggish. Burning Godzilla could have the same moves list as Godzilla 90's (minus his Atomic Ray, since the Spiral Fire Ray would obviously replace that). He'd basically be a superior version of G90's, only his health could drain as the battle wages on. Super Mechagodzilla, Fire Rodan, Mechagodzilla 2 (1975), and so on could all be added as slight adjustments to their earlier forms.

* Alternate outfits for some monsters could also be added. I don't mean like having Godzilla 1954 and Godzilla 1990s in GU. I mean having the Heisei Godzilla's initial character model be based off of his 1994 suit, then releasing an alternate model based off of his 1984 suit, and another based off of his 1992 suit. It would allow for a more authentic experience, and there are a lot of fan favorite suits that you wouldn't be able to cover otherwise.

* Have a Story mode and an Arcade Ladder mode. In Story mode, you could have any number of elements altered to go in the favor of the player or any AI monsters. Perhaps one battle could see Godzilla fighting against Megalon and Gigan, with alien ships teaming up against Godzilla. Another could have Anguirus in a free for all against Biollante and King Ghidorah. I don't know how you're handling your Story mode, but while you could add all sorts of cool scenarios that make specific battles more interesting, I think it's important that you also offer a generic Arcade mode in which you fight against a set number of monsters before facing off against the last boss. It seems like it wouldn't be too hard to add an Arcade Ladder into the game, so why not? Also, I'm totally just assuming that, so if there is some sort of technological hurtle that I'm not taking into consideration, please let me know!

* As I've mentioned before, a co-op campaign of some sort would be awesome. Whether it's a co-op version of Arcade mode, or some sort of co-op Story mode, or just a set of co-op missions, I think that adding some form of co-op campaign would be amazing.

* Bring back instant replays! There was something really satisfying about watching that final blow I slammed my opponent with being replayed from cool angles. I still remember one time when my friend was playing as Anguirus and uncurled from his roll as he got within punching distance from me, and then I blasted him with an Atomic Ray, sending him flying. The instant replay made that moment so amazing. The only way I could think of that would've made that moment even better is...

* ...a movie-maker mode! I'd love to be able to record and edit my battles, then upload them to YouTube. The fans could even offer a lot of free advertising by slapping their favorite matches together with some nice Hollywood-style cinematography. People would see these cool battles popping up on YouTube and inquire about the game, and BAM, another person downloads it.

* Change the Beam Battles. I don't know if you intended to have the mechanics work out the way they did in GU, but it just didn't work. I literally had to forfeit beam battles just so I could escape other monsters. If I had allies who got into Beam Battles, I'd immediately run to the opposing monster and pummel them. I could literally KO them when they're starting out 100% health because there was nothing they could do while they were in the Beam Battle.

* Ditch the RPG damage stuff. Godzilla is not weak against electricity, and more importantly this is not a strategy game, a puzzle game, a card game, or any other kind of game in which having weaknesses and resistances against specific attack types makes any sense. It just gives certain monsters arbitrary advantages or disadvantages over others. Take Godzilla and Ghidorah in GSTE. They're more or less equally matched, but Godzilla Atomic Ray does crap damage to Ghidorah, while the three-headed monster's Gravity Beams can utterly destroy Godzilla because they just so happen to be a specific element that Godzilla can't take. Also, MOGUERA is weak against EVERY monster in that game, except for the Godzillas. I don't understand how that's fair. It's like having Scorpion's fire-based moves in Mortal Kombat doing extra damage against Sub-Zero. That would be unfair. These battles are supposed to be fair contests, unless there are specific handicaps in place such as story-related hindrances on your character. I don't understand why you'd permanently handicap Godzilla when fighting against Ghidorah, even in what should be a fair and balanced multiplayer fight.

* Allow for CPU battles. It shouldn't be that hard, and if unlocking content is tied to all game modes as it was in GU, then simply disable the unlocking part when no human players are involved in a battle. While the battle is being waged, you could even allow whoever's watching to move through the match as a ghost camera. Oh yeah, that reminds me...

* ...add a spectator mode. As I just mentioned, spectators could take control of a ghost camera and move around freely during the battle. This could even be tied into some sort of 'king of the hill' mode where a party of people could get together, and the winner of the match competes against the next person in line, and so on.

[TheSecondComing]

There's no reason to waste time and brain power on a temporary title.

Unless it's Godzilla: Zero Hour

Hardee har har.

[Mr. Strange]

Some nitpicky stuff in there - I'm looking forward to getting the new game into yall's hands before release, so there is none of this nitpicky nonsense in the future!

Many of the suggestions in the second half are good - some we've already discussed.

The one part of this I'd like to specifically talk about is the "arbitrary" elemental weaknesses. Brian is, on this point, totally wrong. Godzilla is not vulnerable to electricity randomly - he is weak specifically because he beat Ghidorah too often in our balancing tests. With his ~12% extra damage taken from Ghidorah and Megalon's beam attack, Godzilla stopped dominating those matches so completely.

A few elemental resistances / vulnerabilities were put in place because of movie reference, but for the most part every single one of them (and even the specific breakdown of damage types) was adjusted specifically to improve game balance. Having that knob in there to adjust allowed us to be a bit more free with our melee attacks - letting us make them "look good" as our first criteria, instead of worrying too much about their particular effectiveness.

Let's take Megaguirus as a specific example - she has a crippling weakness to Atomic Energy. Why? Because she absolutely CLOBBERED Space Godzilla for months. Her energy parasite playstyle just hurt him too much, since his game is all about creating alternative ways to regenerate his hard-to-come-by energy. This was a hard decision, because it then meant that G2k and G90 / G54 were extra strong against Megaguirus. We had to take other steps to fix those match-ups.

The damage type system was such an incredibly useful tool for balancing the game - I can't imagine letting it go. Using a wide variety of damage types gave me fine control over each match-up possibility in the game, which in G:U was 650(!) different match-ups to balance.

I was really surprised at some of the fan backlash about this issue - I think something that made it hard to swallow was the fact that the numerical range of the resistances / vulnerabilites was so wide. Many of them were only ~5% changes to the base damage, while a (very) small number were +50% or more. Seeing that row of vulnerabilities in MOGUERA's character sheet seems to have been off-putting, but I promise you that MOGUERA was a top-tier character for a long time, and needed serious weakening. I didn't just slap those attributes on him randomly!

[Living Corpse]

Adding to this, you think you could make the Ghidorah's necks longer and the wings wider? They just seemed off in the Atari games.

As for GFW Gigan do we really even know if he was metallic blue? The tint used in this film gave everyone a weird color, all the people, monsters and cities had weird lighting to reflect that this was a heavily polluted future. What color was the suit without the weird lighting?

[Kaiju-King42]

Could I make a little suggestion? Beam battles, in my opinion, need to be a lot more rare then they were in GU. I like the game, but one of the most annoying things about it for me was the fact that beam battles happened 90% of the time you fired your beam at an opponent! Beam battles themselves, I don't mind, but they need to be more rare in the game. Maybe if two beams are fired at the same time, a beam battle only has a 10% chance of happening?

Oh, another thing about beams. Explosions. To see explosions where the beams hit, be it the ground, buildings, or other monsters, would be great. In my opinion, it would make it feel much more like the movies.

[Svitska Donkun]

I think it is a really stupid move to say that monsters cannot do the moves they do in the games because they were never done in the movies. A few things to consider:

1. Without added abilities, certain monsters will be be left high and dry in the fighting department compared to better equipped adversaries. It also elaborates on movesets monsters are already known to have. Let's be honest, Monster fights in the movies don;t display too much. It would be horrendously mundane to see monsters doing the same thing as other monsters over and over, and that thing itself being mundane. If Baragon;s or Jet Jaguar's movesets were ripped form the films, they'd be Goddamn boring.

2. There is no established canon for the Godzilla franchise at all. So everything is fair game. To go strictly by what the movies say is ridiculous, as you are limiting yourself creatively and not actively adding ANYTHING to the franchise or characters at all, which I think artists would love to do. Why limit yourself in such a way? That level of purity is borderline parody. Basically anything goes in the Godzilla universe as long as it is approved by Toho. THAT is the mark of legitimacy, and Toho seemed fine with all the moveset adjustments made in previous games. I see no reason to remove them.

3.Removing such things actively makes the game worse. I loved Gigan's teleport, and the Sonic Roar(Only beam weapon like it). Taking them out would make me less inclined to play the characters, because you are making them more boring for something as pointless and irrelevant as film accuracy. These aren't bastardizations of the characters. They are simply adding things that makes them more unique, powerful, and differentiates them form the rest of the cast. By giving them less stuff, in order to keep it close to something poorly portrayed and not even in canon, is taking out game features for no real good reason other than a mistaken sense of franchise purity. I'm somewhat pf a purist when it comes to some things, but as I said, these aren't bastardizations. They are making the characters cooler and function better within the game world. Film accuracy be dammed.

[Mr. Strange]

Could I make a little suggestion? Beam battles, in my opinion, need to be a lot more rare then they were in GU. I like the game, but one of the most annoying things about it for me was the fact that beam battles happened 90% of the time you fired your beam at an opponent! Beam battles themselves, I don't mind, but they need to be more rare in the game. Maybe if two beams are fired at the same time, a beam battle only has a 10% chance of happening?

I don't know exactly what the best solution is, but I agree that beam battles were wonky in G:U. They led to bad interactions, and their predictability (it's the AI which does that) worsened the effect.

3.Removing such things actively makes the game worse. I loved Gigan's teleport, and the Sonic Roar(Only beam weapon like it). Taking them out would make me less inclined to play the characters, because you are making them more boring for something as pointless and irrelevant as film accuracy. These aren't bastardizations of the characters. They are simply adding things that makes them more unique, powerful, and differentiates them form the rest of the cast. By giving them less stuff, in order to keep it close to something poorly portrayed and not even in canon, is taking out game features for no real good reason other than a mistaken sense of franchise purity. I'm somewhat pf a purist when it comes to some things, but as I said, these aren't bastardizations. They are making the characters cooler and function better within the game world. Film accuracy be dammed.

When designing the monster attacks and abilities, I came up with some rather detailed ideas about what each monster's personality/fighting style/visual style should be. I'd be very interested to have people list which characters they felt properly captured the character, and which seemed offset from their expectations. For example, I made Anguirus really scrappy, in-your-face (most of his attacks advanced him significantly) and built his fighting style around staying in close. His Sonic Roar was designed to disrupt beam attacks, but not actually give him significant long-range damage. I felt as if all of that captured what people wanted to see in Anguirus.

But how did I do with the other characters? It's not too early to re-conceptualize fighting goals. Should Orga still be a grappler? Should someone else? Should MOGUERA be all about keep-away? Let's hear your good and bad impressions.