official Gay/Homosexual Debate Thread

[JVM]

I'm just going to drop one thing in here and go on my merry way.

I really am sick of people using religion as a motivation/excuse for being anti-homosexual. If it's against your religion, that's your thing, but I see so many people who build their entire argument upon that. Religion and Sexuality don't need to be such natural enemies - I have a friend who is a devout Catholic and is also bisexual. Plus I've been told that the Catholic Church doesn't even oppose homosexuality, only certain acts.

My own feelings... well, I support equal rights for homosexuals. I don't know anyone who's full gay besides a cousin I haven't been familiar with in several years, but I know quite a few bisexuals. Not much else to say.

[Malchik]

I'm just going to drop one thing in here and go on my merry way.
I really am sick of people using religion as a motivation/excuse for being anti-homosexual. If it's against your religion, that's your thing, but I see so many people who build their entire argument upon that.

Sadly, most religious people see their teachings as the source of human morality, so it's hard to argue that point to them.

[o.supreme]

The "gay gene" could be found, applied, and patented and you'd still go about believing in your current preset views.

But it can't and never will be scientifically proven so I dont have to worry. The fact is, despite all mans attempts, and jokes in media, there is nothing that can disprove the existence of God or the validity of the Scriptures.

Much like evolution, you ignore mountains of evidence in favor of a story.

I am well versed in the teachings of Evolution and Creation. I find it highly ironic that you call the Bible a "story" yet you subscribe to the theory of evolution that has constantly provable flaws and was crafted by imperfect men to make them feel better about themselves and to make them unaccountable to a higher power. Let me ask you this-- If a businessman dictates a letter to someone- whos letter is it? The one who spoke the words, or the one who wrote them down? Also if you examine all things- The Stars, The Galaxies, the Earth, and all life on it, from a logical point of view, then creation only makes sense. I cant believe people can examine the stars and see all the beauty and order in the universe and say it just all "happend" without cause.

[Legionmaster]

Also if you examine all things- The Stars, The Galaxies, the Earth, and all life on it, from a logical point of view, then creation only makes sense. I cant believe people can examine the stars and see all the beauty and order in the universe and say it just all "happend" without cause.

"This world is so beautiful because a smart guy created it."
"This world is so beautiful because, against all odds, it ended up this way."

I still think the second one sounds more impressive and awe-inspiring.

[Crocodile]

The "gay gene" could be found, applied, and patented and you'd still go about believing in your current preset views.

But it can't and never will be scientifically proven so I dont have to worry. The fact is, despite all mans attempts, and jokes in media, there is nothing that can disprove the existence of God or the validity of the Scriptures.

Burden of proof isn't on Scientists to disprove God, it's on the faithful to prove he does. Until then every joke, or refutation of God and validity of scriptures are just as valid as faith. LOGIC!

so if you examine all things- The Stars, The Galaxies, the Earth, and all life on it, from a logical point of view, then creation only makes sense. I cant believe people can examine the stars and see all the beauty and order in the universe and say it just all "happend" without cause.

This assumes our human values of beauty and majesty have any inherent value, which all logic indicates they don't. Or the assumption that everything that happens must have some cause behind it. Or that their existence has any inherent meaning, also an assumption.
All assumptions.

[anguirusnut94]

The "gay gene" could be found, applied, and patented and you'd still go about believing in your current preset views.

But it can't and never will be scientifically proven so I dont have to worry. The fact is, despite all mans attempts, and jokes in media, there is nothing that can disprove the existence of God or the validity of the Scriptures.

Burden of proof isn't on Scientists to disprove God, it's on the faithful to prove he does. Until then every joke, or refutation of God and validity of scriptures are just as valid as faith. LOGIC!

so if you examine all things- The Stars, The Galaxies, the Earth, and all life on it, from a logical point of view, then creation only makes sense. I cant believe people can examine the stars and see all the beauty and order in the universe and say it just all "happend" without cause.

This assumes our human values of beauty and majesty have any inherent value, which all logic indicates they don't. Or the assumption that everything that happens must have some cause behind it. Or that their existence has any inherent meaning, also an assumption.
All assumptions.

I find animal pelts hideous, yet others like them, and find them beautiful. I prefer skulls, yet how many people out there would agree with me when I call the skull of a T-Rex a thing of beauty? Or the skull of a wolf? I find practicality to be beautiful, mostly, but I have yet to meet the man who could agree with me on what 'beauty' is.

[omgitsgodzilla]

The "gay gene" could be found, applied, and patented and you'd still go about believing in your current preset views.

But it can't and never will be scientifically proven so I dont have to worry. The fact is, despite all mans attempts, and jokes in media, there is nothing that can disprove the existence of God or the validity of the Scriptures.

Burden of proof isn't on Scientists to disprove God, it's on the faithful to prove he does. Until then every joke, or refutation of God and validity of scriptures are just as valid as faith. LOGIC!

so if you examine all things- The Stars, The Galaxies, the Earth, and all life on it, from a logical point of view, then creation only makes sense. I cant believe people can examine the stars and see all the beauty and order in the universe and say it just all "happend" without cause.

This assumes our human values of beauty and majesty have any inherent value, which all logic indicates they don't. Or the assumption that everything that happens must have some cause behind it. Or that their existence has any inherent meaning, also an assumption.
All assumptions.

See this guy?

I like this guy.

As for the topic, I think LGBT people absolutely should have equal rights. It's no one's right to say how someone else can or can't live their life, especially in cases that don't involve conscious decisions (that means all you "it's a choice" folk - skreeonk you). As a communist, I'm all about equality anyway. I'm also a bit bisexual, so it's a very personal thing to me.

[JVM]

I'm just going to drop one thing in here and go on my merry way.
I really am sick of people using religion as a motivation/excuse for being anti-homosexual. If it's against your religion, that's your thing, but I see so many people who build their entire argument upon that.

Sadly, most religious people see their teachings as the source of human morality, so it's hard to argue that point to them.

Totally, true.

But it also bugs me because I do know perfectly tolerant religious folk and I'm getting annoyed with the increased amount of people who treat Christians by default as gay bashers, just as much as by gay-bashing Christians who can't even argue as well as me. (And I'm not exactly impressive.)

[Jomei]

^re: that, let me quote what I said in the whine thread.

I'm sick of anti-gay bigots hiding behind their religion when people rightly call them out as bigots, too. You're not against homosexuality because of the Bible--the Bible prohibits a shitload of harmless behaviors, but you picked this one to feel strongly about... because you're a bigot. Evolve in your thinking or accept the scorn of civilized people.

You CAN find anti-gay stuff in the Bible, but it's also true that most Christians ignore plenty of things in the book that they find disagreeable/inconvenient, so the fact that some of them choose to focus on the gay issue, while ignoring other Biblical admonitions, reveals bigotry--not religious devotion--on their part.

[Dash 7]

I'm a Christian but i believe we should love gays even if it is a sin- after all EVERYONE sins just the same so I feel it's no different than any other sin...I don't think there's anything wrong with letting gays get married. If they want to do it outside of church let them

[Tyler]

People in general should be based on what they do not for what they are.

[Gyaos]

I cant help but notice, Bisexuals are signifigantly less made fun of than full blown homosexuals.

[Malchik]

I cant help but notice, Bisexuals are signifigantly less made fun of than full blown homosexuals.

Women, yes.

Men, not so much.

[Gyaos]

Really? I dont see Bis (regardless of gender) getting as much hate as gays.

[Crocodile]

Really? I dont see Bis (regardless of gender) getting as much hate as gays.

Well...Bisexual men may be treated as full gays in a state of semi-denial, seen it happen.

Bisexual women, are treated like the holy grail by men.

[gigandude]

Really? I dont see Bis (regardless of gender) getting as much hate as gays.

Well...Bisexual men may be treated as full gays in a state of semi-denial, seen it happen.

Bisexual women, are treated like the holy grail by men.

-Copys and paste's and prints it out-Now off to school to get the one point ive been trying to get across to a few guys in school thank you crocodile. And at my school I'm called gay pure gay but i have no problem with it turns out for some chicks(preps)are like men and treat us gays and bi guys as the holy grail sometimes ^_^x.

[tymon]

The one who spoke the words, or the one who wrote them down? Also if you examine all things- The Stars, The Galaxies, the Earth, and all life on it, from a logical point of view, then creation only makes sense. I cant believe people can examine the stars and see all the beauty and order in the universe and say it just all "happend" without cause.

Where did God come from? If everything must have a creator, then certainly God must have one too, right? Or did he just "happen without cause"?

[Cimmerian Dragon]

If God is out there, and capable of creating the universe, then he is also a literally transcendent power; "Beyond and outside the ordinary range of human experience or understanding". To suggest that any human religion can fully comprehend the will and intention of such a being on any subject, especially to the degree that they can persecute their fellow men about it, is both an insult to a transcendent deity and a laughable testament to mankind's hubris.

A wise spiritual man knows that the unique rules and teachings of a religion represent man's small effort to wrap their minds around the theoretical "divine", and to assist adherents in growing into the sort of person that religious culture values. These are more often than not positive goals. Joseph Campbell described it best in The Power of Myth. He asks readers to accept a basic respect for all religious traditions, which he calls "kind of a second womb...designed to bring this very complicated thing, which is a human being, to maturity, which means to be self-motivating, self-acting" (Campbell 66). He tells us that every religion is true when we understand it metaphorically, because all the ideas about God that religious doctrines present are metaphorical frames to help adherents comprehend something that is transcendent, and basically un-comprehendible (67). We need these simplified frames of reference to meditate on, but must always remember that any idea of God a religion has remains a metaphor, the reference of the metaphor is something transcendent that is not literally equivalent to the picture we've composed to represent it. "If you think that the metaphor is itself the reference, it would be like going to a restaurant, asking for the menu, seeing beefsteak written there, and then starting to eat the menu" (67). "You can personify God in many, many ways...(but)...What you are talking and trying to think about transcends all that" (76).

What does this have to do with the homosexuality debate? Everything, when people are using religious doctrine to chide or persecute other people. I absolutely respect an individual's right to choose their own, personal religious beliefs. However, no one should abide any effort to force those standards onto others, especially when they insist that those beliefs can be rationally explained as the "correct" ones, or objectively proven as the "direct word of God". It is simple. The abstract concepts of religion, articles of "faith", are things that cannot be proven rationally, and thus no one has any right to force them on another person. I may drop a baseball on a stubborn gravity-denier's head to prove the validity of Newton's theory, but I would not hurl a grenade at someone that refused to capitulate in a dispute that could never be objectively decided.

Obviously, not every person who thinks homosexuality is wrong would physically assault a gay man. However, many see no problem spouting vitriol about sin, evil, cowardice, perversion and every other underhanded slur they can can drudge up out of their filthy minds to attack them. To those people I can only say this: preach to your fellow adherents, not to those who have no interest in you or your judgements. You don't know that your religious rules are right, you have faith that they are. Faith is personal, it can inform your decisions. Faith is not the same thing as fact; Even if that faith is right about something, it will never be fact until it's proven objectively. Being subjective, faith is not applicable in any debate where one side does not share it. So, use your faith as way to personal enlightenment and fulfillment, that's what it's good for. Just don't expect to bully anyone else onto that same path.

[SuperSaiyan4Godzilla]

If God is out there, and capable of creating the universe, then he is also a literally transcendent power; "Beyond and outside the ordinary range of human experience or understanding". To suggest that any human religion can fully comprehend the will and intention of such a being on any subject, especially to the degree that they can persecute their fellow men about it, is both an insult to a transcendent deity and a laughable testament to mankind's hubris.

A wise spiritual man knows that the unique rules and teachings of a religion represent man's small effort to wrap their minds around the theoretical "divine", and to assist adherents in growing into the sort of person that religious culture values. These are more often than not positive goals. Joseph Campbell described it best in The Power of Myth. He asks readers to accept a basic respect for all religious traditions, which he calls "kind of a second womb...designed to bring this very complicated thing, which is a human being, to maturity, which means to be self-motivating, self-acting" (Campbell 66). He tells us that every religion is true when we understand it metaphorically, because all the ideas about God that religious doctrines present are metaphorical frames to help adherents comprehend something that is transcendent, and basically un-comprehendible (67). We need these simplified frames of reference to meditate on, but must always remember that any idea of God a religion has remains a metaphor, the reference of the metaphor is something transcendent that is not literally equivalent to the picture we've composed to represent it. "If you think that the metaphor is itself the reference, it would be like going to a restaurant, asking for the menu, seeing beefsteak written there, and then starting to eat the menu" (67). "You can personify God in many, many ways...(but)...What you are talking and trying to think about transcends all that" (76).

What does this have to do with the homosexuality debate? Everything, when people are using religious doctrine to chide or persecute other people. I absolutely respect an individual's right to choose their own, personal religious beliefs. However, no one should abide any effort to force those standards onto others, especially when they insist that those beliefs can be rationally explained as the "correct" ones, or objectively proven as the "direct word of God". It is simple. The abstract concepts of religion, articles of "faith", are things that cannot be proven rationally, and thus no one has any right to force them on another person. I may drop a baseball on a stubborn gravity-denier's head to prove the validity of Newton's theory, but I would not hurl a grenade at someone that refused to capitulate in a dispute that could never be objectively decided.

Obviously, not every person who thinks homosexuality is wrong would physically assault a gay man. However, many see no problem spouting vitriol about sin, evil, cowardice, perversion and every other underhanded slur they can can drudge up out of their filthy minds to attack them. To those people I can only say this: preach to your fellow adherents, not to those who have no interest in you or your judgements. You don't know that your religious rules are right, you have faith that they are. Faith is personal, it can inform your decisions. Faith is not the same thing as fact; Even if that faith is right about something, it will never be fact until it's proven objectively. Being subjective, faith is not applicable in any debate where one side does not share it. So, use your faith as way to personal enlightenment and fulfillment, that's what it's good for. Just don't expect to bully anyone else onto that same path.

Cimmerian, while I was reading this, the scene in Angels and Demons where the Carmelengo is explaining how science and all bastardy and all that religious stuff was playing on my TV.

And I believe Max Planck has a good quote to follow your post, signore.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up familiar with it."

This isn't true for just science, but for almost every paradigm.

[Cimmerian Dragon]

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up familiar with it."

I know just how he felt, SSG4, believe me. Honestly, I thought I had said all I wanted to on this subject before, but reading multiple appeals to religious authority and assumptions regarding Biblical inerrancy got me all ornery again. Now, I think I have said all I want to. Either the ideas are going to wriggle into a few minds, or they're not.