Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Oh, so I suppose the eyes in the head of the suit and the mouth were moved by the actor, whose hands were in the monster suit's hands at the time? It practically looked like what had already been done in the first TNMT films and on Jim Henson's Dinosaur series, so I think it did involve electronic puppeteer-ing of the face, unless that was somehow done by wires from above or some one moving the jaws and moving and blinking the eyes from the inside?

And I enjoyed how they managed to make Minya look slightly more Godzilla like in the muzzel without sacrificing that trademark hideous look.

[Goji]

*sigh* That stuff is radio controlled dude. It always has been. It's been done that way since the 60's. It's still a stand alone suit. Unlike the 90's films and some of the Millennium series, they were no animatronic heads used for Godzilla or any of the other monsters in FINAL WARS.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Except for Anguirus? Apparently there have been three Anguirus suits, the third of which, in Final Wars, used modern animatronics. FYI, just because something is radio controlled does not mean that it is not animatronics. Its the same way they have animated the Predetor's face in all if its film appearances. Remote controlled servos that move parts under the latex.

[Goji]

Okay, so what about Anguirus was so special? I don't follow. It was a man in a suit. Also, "FYI", the things you're talking about generally aren't referred to as such.

I tried to be friendly, but you decided you wanted to be a snob about it. *shrugs*. Pro tip: lose the attitude.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Friendly? Snob? Animatronics is not widely what it is called in the film industry when they used servos in rubber suits? This is everyday stuff that you see in the special features of movies where practical effects are used in lieu of digital effects. Would you prefer I refer to it as Teleoperation instead? The fact of the matter was that you said that there were no animatronics used in the suit props. That would have left the suits with no ability to make the expressions they did without some practical system involving pullstrings or something like it. Seeing that most suitmation now adays involves having animatronic puppeteer-ing, I was pretty sure that said method was used in Final Wars for at least some of the suits. I looked it up and found that I was at least right about Anguirus, meaning that there were suits that used animatronics. I was only replying to a statement that I found odd about radio controlled devices in the suit being anything but animatronics. I think I get the meaning though. Did you think that I was talking about pneumatic or hydraulically driven fully animatronic props, like the Rex from Jurassic Park or the Hero Alien in AVP that do not use suit actors to make them move? If so, I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.

[Legion1979]

I'm pretty sure the FW suits were built with no extra abilities other than being able to open their mouths. That's just simple remote control. Nothing about that says "animatronics" to me.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

"Building the various components used in the animatronic device usually takes the longest time. There are four main categories into which the work splits, with development happening simultaneously across the categories.

Mechanical
Engineers design and build the mechanical system, which includes everything from basic gears to sophisticated hydraulics.

Electronic
Another group develops the electronic control systems needed to operate the animatronic device. Typically starting from scratch and creating their own custom circuit boards, these engineers are essentially building giant remote-controlled toys. Almost all of the movement is manipulated by specialized remote-control systems known as telemetry devices.

Structural
All of the electronic and mechanical components need something to which to attach and control, and the skin must have a frame to maintain its shape. This is done by building a plastic and steel frame to increase the realism, and because it is the natural way to design it.

Surface
The "skin" is often made from foam rubber, which is a very light, spongy rubber made by mixing air with liquid latex rubber and then curing (hardening) it. While there are other compounds, such as silicone and urethane that are stronger and last longer, foam rubber is used because it is much easier to work with. The solution is poured into each mold and allowed to cure. As mentioned earlier, parts of the frame are embedded with the foam rubber at certain points. To further strengthen the skin, a piece of fabric is cut to size and embedded in the foam rubber after it is poured into the mold. Once cured, each piece of skin is pulled from its mold.[5] "

[Goji]

I looked it up and found that I was at least right about Anguirus, meaning that there were suits that used animatronics.

"Looked it up" where, exactly? To my knowledge, there is very little written about FINAL WARS in English outside of articles in G-Fan magazine and possibly David Kalat's revised edition of his book (and even that's a big maybe). Other than that, I'd love to know what this supposed source is.

I think I get the meaning though. Did you think that I was talking about pneumatic or hydraulically driven fully animatronic props, like the Rex from Jurassic Park or the Hero Alien in AVP that do not use suit actors to make them move? If so, I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.

Yes, that is what I thought you meant, originally.

[Patrick Alan]

The movie isn't great, it's not one of my favorites but there were some parts I enjoyed.

Likes
Godzilla looked great
Don Fry was pretty cool
The original Atragon made a cameo
Manda looked cool
Hedorah looked cool....from what we saw of him...
Gigan looked cool
It was fun to see Zilla get anihalted
Rodan looked cool
I liked the cameos of old Showa Toho films
Kumonga looked cool

Minya looked sorta better

[TechnoForce]

I loved the Gotengo. I thought a lot of the designs were pretty good and I liked that some of them had been updated but still had a bit of a showa feel like the Xillians.

[shinmattiathekaiju]

What qualities, may I ask, does Godzilla vs Megalon have that make it a weaker film than Final Wars?

There was ZERO character development, stock footage galore, and the pacing was lousy. Cheesy, and infamous for being the movie that gets look down upon as "cheap children's entertainment." Don't get me wrong, I like Vs. Megalon, but to say it's a better film than Final Wars is quite remarkable.[/quote]

While the characters and story suck in Godzilla vs. Megalon, the fight scenes and the car chases are better than anything in GFW. When it comes to the important parts of the film, there is little to no stock footage, and you can tell that the filmmakers are trying their best to make this film entertaining. And they succeed. It's just the kind of film that you can turn your brain off to, and just enjoy some 70s Godzilla action. On top of that, the MST3K version of it some of the best enjoyment one will get in an hour and a half.Godzilla: Final Wars, on the other hand, is not entertaining. The parts that would be entertaining are over before the entertainment can begin. I really don't feel like explaining why, since I've done that already.
Basically, I still stand by what I said in my last post:

Godzilla vs. Megalon is entertaining as hell and isn't a big middle finger to the Godzilla fanbase, unlike GFW.

[/quote]


Wait! So you disliked Godzilla's protrayal in Final Wars but yet, you like to see Godzilla being humiliated by a guy and two robots? I'm confused.

[The Midnight Man]

Edit: Didn't know he was talking about the MST3K version. D'oh.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

There was ZERO character development, stock footage galore, and the pacing was lousy. Cheesy, and infamous for being the movie that gets look down upon as "cheap children's entertainment." Don't get me wrong, I like Vs. Megalon, but to say it's a better film than Final Wars is quite remarkable.

I don't watch Godzilla vs. Megalon to watch character development. I watch it to see some cheesy yet enjoyable monster fights. And you know what? The film delivers on that. If you're watching this film for character development, then you're watching the wrong movie.

As for the stock footage, they use it in big chunks, not all over the place like Godzilla vs. Gigan. There are essentially entire scenes that are nothing but stock footage, but there are only two or three of them in the entire film. The final fight, for example, has little to no stock footage. The only scenes that really over use stock footage are the military attack scenes and Megalon's attack on the city.

And the pacing...I really don't have any problems with Godzilla vs. Megalon's pacing.

Godzilla vs. Megalon actually succeeds at being entertaining at times, especially the MST3K version. GFW, on the other hand, is very boring and insulting to watch.

Wait! So you disliked Godzilla's protrayal in Final Wars but yet, you like to see Godzilla being humiliated by a guy and two robots? I'm confused.

...Except that, Godzilla isn't being humiliated in the MST3K version of Godzilla vs. Megalon. They don't utterly destroy Godzilla's reputation, they just poke fun at his expense. As I recall, they don't really rip the movie apart either, they just joke about the ridiculous situations of the movie. Which, let's face it, all Godzilla films have ridiculous situations in them.

Also, even if MST3K were humiliating Godzilla, they're just doing it in good fun. It's not like they're throwing out insults at Godzilla, his creators and his fans. GFW, however, is insulting to Godzilla's fanbase, for it's lack of care and attention to what made this movie franchise so wonderful to watch.

[kpa]

I looked it up and found that I was at least right about Anguirus, meaning that there were suits that used animatronics.

"Looked it up" where, exactly? To my knowledge, there is very little written about FINAL WARS in English outside of articles in G-Fan magazine and possibly David Kalat's revised edition of his book (and even that's a big maybe). Other than that, I'd love to know what this supposed source is.

I think I get the meaning though. Did you think that I was talking about pneumatic or hydraulically driven fully animatronic props, like the Rex from Jurassic Park or the Hero Alien in AVP that do not use suit actors to make them move? If so, I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.

Yes, that is what I thought you meant, originally.

Apologies for jumping into an old discussion, but I may have some relevant info. "Animatronics" was initially used for the big mechanical puppets created for Disneyland or movies like JURASSIC PARK, but I've heard FX artists use it to also describe mechanical features built into a suit or mask to help create lifelike movements.

Shinichi Wakasa and I have talked about the animatronics in the Godzilla/daikaiju suits. Years ago he told me that time and budget didn't allow for much of that for the FINAL WARS monsters, so most of them only had mobile jaws and (maybe) eyes that moved back and forth... this included Godzilla, who couldn't even blink in the film. The only character with extensive animatronic features was Minya, and that was done since he had to interact with people and therefore needed more range in his performance.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Thanks for pointing that out. There were things about Minya in Final Wars that just screamed Jim Henson's Dinosaurs or TNMT when I saw it. When watching behind the scenes featurettes about those shows the term "animatronics" was tossed about a lot, so I applied the term to the Minya character in Final Wars.

[Living Corpse]

I hate some of the wasted potential.


Kamacura's power to turn invisible and fly super fast could have made for an interesting fight had the film makers not wasted it by having the fight end in seconds. Done well I imagine the fight would have turned out like the one in Megaguirus what with Kamacura's using it's speed to hit and run and the invisibility would have complicated it further for Godzilla. That would have been cool.

But no, they wasted potential for a cool fight by having Godzilla kill him in one swift throw. Such bull.

[shinmattiathekaiju]

I hate some of the wasted potential.


Kamacura's power to turn invisible and fly super fast could have made for an interesting fight had the film makers not wasted it by having the fight end in seconds. Done well I imagine the fight would have turned out like the one in Megaguirus what with Kamacura's using it's speed to hit and run and the invisibility would have complicated it further for Godzilla. That would have been cool.

But no, they wasted potential for a cool fight by having Godzilla kill him in one swift throw. Such bull.

Ditto.

[Godzillabrawler]

GFW, on the other hand, is very boring and insulting to watch.

Insulting if you enjoy the Showa era. Boring if you don't enjoy Godzilla handing monsters' their asses left and right.

I'm in neither camp, so if saying Final Wars is better than Vs. Megalon is wrong, than I don't want to be right.

[Living Corpse]

Boring if you don't enjoy Godzilla handing monsters' their asses left and right.

That is boring, it's more fun when Godzilla actually has to try to beat the other monster, especially if they're equal to him or Superior.

No offense to you but I just find it more fun with the monsters actually trying to kill or knock each other out instead of just flicking them away and shrugging.

[shinmattiathekaiju]

GFW, on the other hand, is very boring and insulting to watch.

Insulting if you enjoy the Showa era. Boring if you don't enjoy Godzilla handing monsters' their asses left and right.

I'm in neither camp, so if saying Final Wars is better than Vs. Megalon is wrong, than I don't want to be right.

IS actually more fun when Godzilla is struggling to defeat the other monsters. Easy fights are boring, thats why the final duel in Revenge Of The Fallen is dissapointing(other than having the villain builded up as an invincible monster).