Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

[TheSecondComing]

^^Wrong form of "your."

Don't pay attention to Legion, Banzai. I don't know him all that well either, but I've seen a pattern of nerdrage pretty much anytime somebody disagrees with him on pretty much anything. If he's finally done with this thread, I'd suggest it's 56 pages too late.

I appreciate your thoughtful write ups and though they're sometimes not on the same page with how I see GFW, it's nice to read something other than "ZOMG BEST MOVI EVA!!1" or "LOL your opinion is wrong" for once.

Is GFW flawed? Absolutely. So what? Virtually every movie has flaws of some kind and in many cases they add to personal enjoyment of a movie or show.

Was it a success at the box office? Nope. So what? There's a lot of factors at play there such as over-saturation of the market, 6 Godzilla movies in 6 years is too many and the most consecutive years with a Godzilla movie since the 1960's, back when demand for monsters was much higher than it is now. If you think about it one way, there only needed to be three: Godzilla 2000 (Toho made it in part from huge fan demand to refresh the character after GINO did so much damage to it), GMK (the first metaphorical/artsy Godzilla movie in decades, which in part led to the biggest box office success in recent Godzilla history) and GFW (50th anniversary). It's entirely possible that if Toho hadn't bothered producing Megaguirus or the Kiryu duology that GFW would've been a much bigger financial success. Even though this is all my own speculation, it still begs the following question: How the heck does the argument "it didn't make any money!" interfere with my enjoyment of it? That's a damned stupid reason to hate a movie and I'd suggest that a lot of our DVD collections would be much smaller if we only liked movies that made money.

I don't have to explain why I like GFW if I don't feel like it. It should be good enough for you if I just said that I did. You can argue with me about it if you want, but that will be just as much a waste of your time, and what is infinitely more important, my time just as it has been for the last seven and a half years. I attended the world premiere and maybe that skewed my opinion of it.

But again, so what?

My screenname is TheSecondComing and I am an unabashed appreciator of Godzilla: Final Wars. I like it.

So sue me.

[kpa]

Firstly, to kpa: you have made some excellent points regarding the movie, and Toho's expectations and errors in your last post, but I would like to point out that Kitamura-san has had a Hollywood release with Midnight Meat Train, an adaptation of a Clive Barker story, which was in pre-production stages prior to the completion, or even commencement, of LoveDeath. The issue with this movie is that it was banking on all the wrong things as well, but that is beside the point. There are currently 2 more Kitmamura films to be released through US production and distribution as well.

I'm aware of MIDNIGHT MEAT TRAIN -- and that it was in development off and on for years-- but Kitamura didn't sign on to direct that film until 2006, after both FINAL WARS and LOVEDEATH. The point I was making was that, before being asked to do FINAL WARS, Kitamura was already planning to make films in America. When we spoke the day before the GFW premiere he told me that his next film would be a Hollywood production. MIDNIGHT MEAT TRAIN was not what he was talking about, since Patrick Tatapoulos was slated to direct that film at the time.

I know Kitamura directed a music video in 2010 (a cover of "Smells Like Teen Spirit"), and have seen his name attached to various films listed as "in production" over the years (like the VERSUS sequel/remake), but can't think of any films he's directed that were released after MIDNIGHT MEAT TRAIN in 2008. Does anyone know if he's actually made a movie since then?

Regarding your take on Kitamura's vision, I have to disagree... and that comes from talks with numerous people involved with GFW, including Kitmaura, who all said the film is as Kitamura intended. And he's a very independent person, but I've never seen him contradict that assertion in any interview, or heard otherwise from anyone else (I've only spoken with him at the premiere but we have a few mutual friends). Don Frye has joked that the moved "sucked" but Kitamura has said more than once he's proud of the movie. The idea that the film compromises his vision simply isn't true.

I think Toho was right to want to make the 50th anniversary film and event that would draw a wider audience but their mistake was in choosing the absolutely wrong director for the job. GFW's critical and commercial failure bears that out... it utterly failed at everything it was meant to accomplish (it hasn't even caught on as a cult film the way VERSUS did). Kitamura focused on what interested him, so there was more emphasis on stuntwork than story or FX... for example, the FX budget was doubled from TOKYO SOS, but the crew had to make 15 monsters (rather than 4 like the previous film) which meant they could only afford to create one suit or prop for most of them. And that made shooting the monster scenes extremely difficult... the end of the Rodan/Caesar/Angilas battle couldn't even be shot because the crew couldn't risk damaging the monster suits. Godzilla is the biggest star in the daikaiju eiga, FINAL WARS had the highest budget in the history of the genre, it was the 50th anniversary celebration of the genre, and yet the film's FX don't match the quality or consistency of GAMERA 3, a move made for less than 1/3 as much. And it wasn't that Kitamura tried and failed to deliver on that... it's that he wasn't interested in even trying. And that's one of the many decisions Kitamura made that resulted in a movie that gets (to quote the title of this thread) "all the hate". And I don't even hate the movie.

*reads kpa's post*

There is a reason I respect kpa's opinion on Godzilla possibly more than any other person, and his post pretty much shows why. He is the man when it comes to Godzilla.

That's high praise. Thank you.

[Legion1979]

Is GFW flawed? Absolutely. So what? Virtually every movie has flaws of some kind and in many cases they add to personal enjoyment of a movie or show.

Was it a success at the box office? Nope. So what? There's a lot of factors at play there such as over-saturation of the market, 6 Godzilla movies in 6 years is too many and the most consecutive years with a Godzilla movie since the 1960's, back when demand for monsters was much higher than it is now. If you think about it one way, there only needed to be three: Godzilla 2000 (Toho made it in part from huge fan demand to refresh the character after GINO did so much damage to it), GMK (the first metaphorical/artsy Godzilla movie in decades, which in part led to the biggest box office success in recent Godzilla history) and GFW (50th anniversary). It's entirely possible that if Toho hadn't bothered producing Megaguirus or the Kiryu duology that GFW would've been a much bigger financial success. Even though this is all my own speculation, it still begs the following question: How the heck does the argument "it didn't make any money!" interfere with my enjoyment of it? That's a damned stupid reason to hate a movie and I'd suggest that a lot of our DVD collections would be much smaller if we only liked movies that made money.

I don't have to explain why I like GFW if I don't feel like it. It should be good enough for you if I just said that I did. You can argue with me about it if you want, but that will be just as much a waste of your time, and what is infinitely more important, my time just as it has been for the last seven and a half years. I attended the world premiere and maybe that skewed my opinion of it.

But again, so what?

This sounds like a lot of very pointless blah blah-ing meant only to shut up the people on the other side of the argument.

I've never really heard people say that no one is allowed to like this movie just because it may or may not be a good film. I don't think anyone is saying that here. So this defensive attitude I'm getting from this post doesn't make a good deal of sense. People are entitled to like whatever they want to. I like a lot of pretty terrible films but I'm also not going to sit here and say they're actually quality movies, nor am I going to sit here and say things about their production or filmmaker intent that isn't supported by facts.

This brings us to where we are now. I don't think any of us care that BBanzai likes this movie. That's fine, I like Godzilla's Revenge. Most of this recent discussion is stemming from him saying things that don't really make sense or can be disproven with a little inside information, which is what Keith did yesterday. Additionally, saying that GFW would have done better if all the Tezuka films weren't made and the Millennium series only consisted of G2K and GMK doesn't make a lot of sense either. This was a huge film, very expensive, very well promoted, given a US premiere and meant to celebrate Godzilla's 50th anniversary. If this had been a good film I know it would have done gangbusters. GMK bounced back after GxM, which also bombed. It's failure speaks more to it's quality than to burnout. But it did worse that SOS on several times the budget. That's just mind-boggling. The reaction from people in Japan was simply that it was a terrible film. I don't think you need to be suffering from franchise burnout to know that something sucks.

My screenname is TheSecondComing and I am an unabashed appreciator of Godzilla: Final Wars. I like it.

So sue me.

That's terrific. But someone who says "I like it and I shouldn't have to explain why" - on a DISCUSSION FORUM - also shouldn't be the one telling people to ignore the opinions of other members.

[Living Corpse]

I add nothing new to the table so feel free to just skip all my mumbling.

By all accounts Kitamura did the movie the way he wanted and is pleased with the finished film.

did the movie the way he wanted and is pleased with the finished film.

and is pleased with the finished film.

...Why? I may not be an "expert" on film making but even I know when I've made a decent/meh/OK youtube video and when I've made a shitty youtube video. I don't need to go to film school to know this flick is a mess. Hell I manage to enjoy some, some things about this film like Rodan's attack on New York or Monster X's entrance and fight and still think it's a mess. You can make a bad film and still have fun and I'll admit I had some fun with this film but it's still a bad film.

Hell I LOVE Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla but I would never call it a good film and I can see with no trouble why fans tend to hate it.

he next did a smaller film because his plans to work in Hollywood in 2005 fell through.

Damn, who's the fan who was so angry he used voodoo to keep him out of Hollywood for a few years? Nah they probably just weren't impressed by GFW and decided not to take him in right away. I never saw his other films except for Midnight Meat Train (yeah, yeah, I know it sounds like a porn but it's really a slasher flick) and I gotta say from what I've seen and heard from his fans he's much better at making martial arts and slasher flicks then he is giant monster films.

Ticket sales were lower than the previous year's TOKYO SOS, and the box office take was only about half the film's budget making GFW by far the biggest financial failure in the entire series.

I knew it did bad but I had no clue it lost that much money.

Sony was considering a US theatrical release; after screening the film at the studio they passed on theatrical and only optioned the TV and video rights.

Thank whatever deity exists, if any, because GINO already did enough damage when it was released in theaters that the franchise is still recovering from and some of that damage will never go away. The last thing we needed was this film to get released in theaters in the state and just reenforce the stereotypes that "all Japanese monster films are bad".

Toho was extremely disappointed, and sees the film as a costly mistake (they could have made three movies from the money lost on GFW's production).

...

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

While I never say never, I'd put the chances they'll ever let Kitamura direct a major Godzilla film in Japan at about 1%.

I hate to be that guy but Toho has made so many mistakes that I can only hope they learn from this one never let this guy make a kiaju film, only hire him for martial arts and horror slasher flicks.

Why yes, I am still bitter about what they did to Hedorah. They could have used him in the final battle as a partner for both Gigan and Monster X. Hell the fact he was killed mere moments before the final battle adds insult to injury/salt to an already burning wound.

Just when it looked like some well thought out points were being made, we get the above three posts and are returned to childish name calling

????????????????????????

What insults? The very early posts yeah but that's old news and the last few posts have been surprisingly civil all things considered.

[Cimmerian Dragon]

I add nothing new to the table so feel free to just skip all my mumbling.

By all accounts Kitamura did the movie the way he wanted and is pleased with the finished film.

did the movie the way he wanted and is pleased with the finished film.

and is pleased with the finished film.

...Why? I may not be an "expert" on film making but even I know when I've made a decent/meh/OK youtube video and when I've made a shitty youtube video.

It's no different than the fans who think Final Wars is "good". It appeals to them in some subjective way that seems totally mind-boggling to everyone else. For whatever reason, Kitamura thinks that FW is what a "good time at the monster movies" looks like. I neither agree, nor understand, why that is. At the same time, if he thought he was making a decent film, it doesn't surprise me that he continues to be satisfied by the final product.

[TheSecondComing]

I know Kitamura directed a music video in 2010 (a cover of "Smells Like Teen Spirit"), and have seen his name attached to various films listed as "in production" over the years (like the VERSUS sequel/remake), but can't think of any films he's directed that were released after MIDNIGHT MEAT TRAIN in 2008. Does anyone know if he's actually made a movie since then?

I read maybe last week that Kitamura was slated to direct the next WWE Studios movie but I don't remember the details offhand. Having said that, WWE Studios is a joke and all their stuff is direct to DVD.

This sounds like a lot of very pointless blah blah-ing meant only to shut up the people on the other side of the argument.

There's a lot of that going around on both sides. And now we're back at my original point about this entire argument being a waste of time, just as it has been for the last 6 years.

I've never really heard people say that no one is allowed to like this movie just because it may or may not be a good film. I don't think anyone is saying that here.

Of course nobody says it outright. But the fact that here we are in 2012 and that GFW haters can't, or won't, understand that the "I LIKE GFW" vs. "BUT IT SUCKS" argument isn't one that can be won or lost is kind of silly. Somebody could post a list of 1999 reasons GFW isn't good, but it doesn't matter because I still like it. Accept it, move on. I can't stand Godzilla's Revenge and although for whatever reason that movie seems to get a lot more fan appreciation than it did in the 90's when I was first involved in the online fandom, I don't go out of my way to provide lists of 1999 reasons Godzilla's Revenge sucks. I accept that people like it and move on, because it just isn't that important.

People are entitled to like whatever they want to. I like a lot of pretty terrible films but I'm also not going to sit here and say they're actually quality movies, nor am I going to sit here and say things about their production or filmmaker intent that isn't supported by facts.

Alright, this is exactly what I'm saying.

Additionally, saying that GFW would have done better if all the Tezuka films weren't made and the Millennium series only consisted of G2K and GMK doesn't make a lot of sense either.

It's called my own personal speculation, but I'm pretty sure it's reasonable enough to understand that 6 Godzilla movies in 6 years, especially when 3 or 4 of them before GFW were mediocre at best caused some burnout amongst Japanese fans.

This was a huge film, very expensive, very well promoted, given a US premiere and meant to celebrate Godzilla's 50th anniversary. If this had been a good film I know it would have done gangbusters. GMK bounced back after GxM, which also bombed.

If memory serves me correctly, GMK was doing the same amount of business as G2K and GXM for the first few weeks of its release until word of mouth that it was actually a good movie drove business upwards in the middle and close of its run. I'm going to ask KPA for a fact-check on this one but I'm pretty sure I remember this being the case.

It's failure speaks more to it's quality than to burnout. But it did worse that SOS on several times the budget. That's just mind-boggling. The reaction from people in Japan was simply that it was a terrible film. I don't think you need to be suffering from franchise burnout to know that something sucks.

No, but it helps. There's always more than one factor at play in a given situation, but I think burnout and Godzilla's overall declining popularity with his home audience are major players in why GFW tanked as badly as it did.

That's terrific. But someone who says "I like it and I shouldn't have to explain why" - on a DISCUSSION FORUM - also shouldn't be the one telling people to ignore the opinions of other members.

That's great too. If it matters to you that much why I like it, go back and read it the dozen or so times I've bothered trying to before. The most unsullied write up I did was probably the review I posted on Monster Zero/Club Tokyo in the day or two after the premeire. Go find that review if it's so important to know where I'm coming from. I was one of the first people in the world to see the movie and that unique experience is probably a huge factor in why it holds such a special place in my heart. Being able to shake the hand of Don Frye and meet Shogo Tomiyama and some of the other actors on one of the biggest days of their life is something I can treasure for the rest of my days. It's entirely possible, even likely, that my opinion would be 180 degrees the other direction if not for the events of November 29, 2004. But that's some alternate universe that I'm not living in.

BTW, thanks again Keith and to your girlfriend too.

[Legion1979]

BTW, thanks again Keith and to your girlfriend too.

And that means what, exactly?

[RedZillaKing]

If I'm reading it right he's directly insulting kpa and the person who complimented him, implying some sort of homosexual relationship. Lame.

[TheSecondComing]

If I'm reading it right he's directly insulting kpa and the person who complimented him, implying some sort of homosexual relationship. Lame.

You're a fool.

I'm saying thank you to Keith for running the contest that I was a winner of, and to his girlfriend for picking my name out of all the entries.

Toho Kingdom: Where saying an honest "thank you" can only mean something sinister!

[RedZillaKing]

That is honestly hilarious. To be honest I've been reading the last few pages and I can't tell the overly opinionated douche bags from the good guys anymore. Your petty little grammar correction at the top seems to place you firmly in douchebag territory. Therefore, in the context it seemed like you were stooping to low blows. Apologies.

[kpa]

If I'm reading it right he's directly insulting kpa and the person who complimented him, implying some sort of homosexual relationship. Lame.

You're a fool.

I'm saying thank you to Keith for running the contest that I was a winner of, and to his girlfriend for picking my name out of all the entries.

Toho Kingdom: Where saying an honest "thank you" can only mean something sinister!

You're very welcome... and thanks for the thanks.

And I appreciate anyone who wanted to make sure i wasn't being insulted. All is good, so hopefully we can now get the discussion back on the movie.

[TheSecondComing]

This was a huge film, very expensive, very well promoted, given a US premiere and meant to celebrate Godzilla's 50th anniversary. If this had been a good film I know it would have done gangbusters. GMK bounced back after GxM, which also bombed.

If memory serves me correctly, GMK was doing the same amount of business as G2K and GXM for the first few weeks of its release until word of mouth that it was actually a good movie drove business upwards in the middle and close of its run. I'm going to ask KPA for a fact-check on this one but I'm pretty sure I remember this being the case.

Sure thing Keith but while you're here can you refresh my memory on this point?

[ScootaVaran]

I enjoyed the movie. not the greatest but not horrible like people make it out.
People expect way more than a giant monster movie played by guys in suits can give.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

I enjoyed the movie. not the greatest but not horrible like people make it out.
People expect way more than a giant monster movie played by guys in suits can give.

...That's not it at all.

What I expected from GFW was the equivalent of a love letter to 50 years of Godzilla, or at the very least something that pays tribute to Godzilla. But what we got was a Matrix-style rip off of a film, where it felt like the monster scenes were done at the very last minute, and that the filmmakers didn't care about the monster scenes at all.

If you like GFW, that's perfectly fine. I'm not saying you can't like the film. But you should understand that some people find this film more disappointing than GINO (or at least I do, but I'm sure there's a few other people too).

[kpa]

Sure thing Keith but while you're here can you refresh my memory on this point?

It's difficult to compare GMK's early release against G2000 and GxM because it wasn't released the same way. GMK opened at the same time as the first HARRY POTTER film and POTTER got the major Toho theater locations. So GMK debuted in less theaters than G2000 and GxM had, and didn't open in several of Toho's key spots like the previous two Godzilla films. Toho also cut back on advertising so there were less billboards and no promotional TV special.

I don't recall the exact figures GMK opened with, but it did well if not overwhelmingly so. But it was 4-5 weeks into its theatrical run that ticket sales went up, which is a rare thing for any movie these days, let alone a Godzilla film.

[Cimmerian Dragon]

The power of positive reactions spreading. Nowadays, it's typically the whole "1/3 total gross in the opening week" system for a successful picture.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Seems to me that what people would have wanted for Godzilla's 50th was basically Destroy All Monsters 2, with Godzilla being the star.
Add all of the pointless mutant stuff to the mix and what I got was just a teaser of that sort of idea.

I would have been happier if the monsters would have been treated like their debut characterizations, with them acting "natural" when the control gets severed. I mean, how many Showa monsters could stop Hedorah if it was suddenly set loose? The only one I can can think of is King Ghidorah, given the nature of its breath weapon. The movie could have had something interesting like the humans trying to get those two to cross paths. Defeating hedorah would have been a feat worthy of one of Godzilla's most famous rivals.

Instead we get a bunch of stuff about totally normal looking mutant humans with super guns that can take down city crushing monsters. I did like a lot of the action, the same way I like fan made trailers on youtube, but it was just not enough and way too fast.

[RedZillaKing]

Catface! Where you been bro? At any rate, I agree that people basically wanted a modern updaqte to DAM. God knows that's what I wanted.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Switching PC's plus spring break was on, so I had no legitimate reason to use their interwebs.

Yeah, watching Godzilla vs. Hedorah again, they way Hedorah was handled in the flick was inexcusable. This monster could literally melt the flesh of other creatures just by passing over and or through them, and the big G's breath weapon could not stop the monster in the original debut. I should not have been so easily defeated. Most of the same can be said for most of the other monsters as well, like Gigan.

[TechnoForce]

I thought it was a great movie. I mean there were a few things that could have been improved (Ozakis Keizer beam thing for one...) But Don Frye as the captain of the Gotengo, the updated Gigan and the Godzilla vs Zilla fight were excellent. I think a lot of people just didnt like the cheesiness in some parts. "Im a vegetarian!"