Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:50 am

Or it proves that Destroyer is more durable then rocks.

More Durable= Less explosions.


Explosions are explosions. It doesn't matter what surface they happen on, so long as they're comparable. If you take a bomb and drop it in the middle of the desert, it'll create a decent sized explosion. If you take the same bomb and drop it in the middle of large cement construct, it'll create the same sized explosion. The impact that the bomb has on both surfaces may be different, but the explosion that the bomb creates is going to be the same either way.

It's the same case here. I'm not talking about how many explosions or the result of the explosions, but the size of the explosions. In one instance, you have an explosion that is pretty big and wide. It would be very deadly if it hit something that was alive. In another instance, you have an explosion that is actually pretty tiny and rather unimpressive compared to the other beam.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Legion1979 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:00 am

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:...No. Meltdown Godzilla's beam (under 1190 degrees) < Heisei Godzilla's regular atomic ray


I'm still waiting for someone to actually prove this.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Primevalgodzilla V2 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:36 am

Yeah, IR has said that MD Goji's ray isn;t quite the Spiral Ray, but saying its weaker is a stretch.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Legion1979 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:41 am

Primevalgodzilla V2 wrote:Yeah, IR has said that MD Goji's ray isn;t quite the Spiral Ray, but saying its weaker is a stretch.


This I'd agree with.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Gyaos » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:54 am

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:Okay then. Let me know when you find out how SG can blast molecule sized objects to pieces.


Seeing how Space Godzilla never missed with his Corona Beam, that shouldn't be too hard. Stomping on them would be just as effective I'm sure. Or electric touch, or Gravity Tornados.[/quote]
Gonna have to call the bullshit flag on that one, my friend. Spacegodzilla isnt going to hit crap at a molecular level, unless his eyes are the most powerful electron micriscopes in the universe.

The Micro-Oxygen Spray did little more than irritate Meltdown Godzilla. I think it's safe to assume that the MO-Spray won't be doing a damn thing to Space Godzilla.


Maybe cause he was facing a, you know, STRONGER GODZILLA?

...Wait, why would Destoroyah be able to fling Space Godzilla to the ground with minimal effort? Space Godzilla has an electric touch. If Destoroyah tries to touch Space Godzilla, it'll get shocked and it's "fling" won't be doing anything to Space Godzilla.

The same electric touch that didnt do shit to Godzilla?
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby PopInPicsPresents » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:07 pm

I think it's funny. This thread is for judging who is stronger in general correct? In general Spacegodzilla is weaker because, in general Spacegodzilla doesn't carry around an energy source. Destoroyah doesn't need to absorb energy to become powerful, he's already a juggernaught. Spacegodzilla is a paracite and basically needs other sources of energy to thrieve. It's inferior to Destoroyah.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby SimeonAssassin » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:00 pm

People you cannot judge the power of an energy attack by how much Toho was willing to invest in special effects for it. It is clear and obvious that both of M.Godzilla's red beams are supposed to be more powerfull than his regular blue one. The entire premise of the movie is that Godzilla's energy core is becoming increasingly unstable, growing in uncontrolled, rising output.

Secondly, SpaceGodzilla's carona beam is clearly a very powerfull weapon, just how powerfull it is, and exactly how it operates, is up to fan speculation. Don't use the quality of the special effects as a measure to judge the concept of the weapon.

Now the Corona beam, I am willing to concede that it's directed by S.Godzilla's telepathy. I am not however, persuaded by the level of special effects to dictate the level of power, or the manner in which it operates. When first used on Godzilla, it had a clear, stinging, temporary paralyzing effect. However, after continued exposure to the beam, Godzilla displays a resistance to it's effects.

As we have seen in both previous and subsequent movies, Godzilla builds a resistance to "bolt" attacks. This forms a pattern, which justifies a judgement, that being, that Godzilla's body "learns", and can adapt to certain energy attacks. This however, in no way can be used to judge the objective power level of the Corona beam, it's clear that if it were used against lesser Kaiju, it would result in a devastating, perhaps crippling blow.

Since Destroyah has displayed no such resistance to energy attacks, aside from a higher level of durability appropriate to his character, we have to assume that the Corona beam would strike with the same level of effectivness each time. Suffice to say, The Corona beam used against Destroyah would inflict damage, parhaps at a level equal or slightly lesser than M.Godzilla's red beam.

Destroyah's Micro-Oxygen stream strikes me with more question than answers. What exactly is the composition of such a stream? Being derived from a form of oxygen, does it have a gaseous aspect to it? If so, then would it be able to pass through SpaceGodzilla's shield? What would it's effects be on SpaceGodzilla's mutated DNA? From what we see in the movie, the MOS is a type of "beam" attack, however I think this is more likely the result of Toho's SFX budget, than a proper dipiction of what a Micro-Oxygen projected attack would look like. So we are left to conclude that being a type of "Beam" attack, it would likely be subject to reflection by SpaceGodzilla's shield.

Since the MOS was able to punish an overpowered Godzilla, I am left to conclude that the MOS is more powerful than the Corona beam.

Now we go up close. As we saw repeatedly in the Heisei era, the majority of the fights were at a distance, fought with energy weapons. SpaceGodzilla was especially inclined to fight this way. With an array of abilities at his disposal, it was part of his character build to show how dangerous a monster he was. However he is no slouch going toe-to-toe either. SpaceGodzilla was able to discharge red bolts of energy directly from his shoulder crystals, adding a close-range energy weapon. And we have all seen the effect of his physical strikes, which can conduct a red bolts energy from physical contact.

SpaceGodzilla's endurance is nothing to ignore either, he was able to tank a two sided assault, from both Godzilla and MOGUERA, it was his shoulder crystals that were vulrnerable. Also, when MOGUERA attacked and buried it's nose drill into SpaceGodzilla's shoulder, we see moments later that the wound was healed completely, without scar tissue. His tail also, a very powerfull instrument, able to lift and toss objects far in excess of his own body weight. I suspect this may have been supplicated by telekinesis.

Now the "Gravity Tornado" While I personally dislike the name, I'll work with it. We see no visible signs of it's usage being a drain on SpaceGodzilla's energy reserve, so I chalk it's infrequent usage to the writer trying to progress the story, to mean that they didn't want to keep doing it so they could move along with the plot. With the abilites at his disposal, and the intelligence to use them, I think the writers really undersold the SpaceGodzilla character, and as far as story-telling goes, this could have become a trilogy in itself.

Destroyah up close. Looming over the overpowered Godzilla, and more massive to boot, Destroyah is a Kaiju where only a certain few could stand to go nose-to-nose with. Even Godzilla was beaten back from a tooth and claw fight with the monster, it wasn't until the red beams damaged Destroyah's chest that Godzilla was able to close the gap and inflict injury with his claws. Aside from his imposing stature, Destroyah can use his prehensile tail as an instrument to grab and constrict opponents. The exact nature of what we're seeing when there's an influx of energy when Destroyah's tail is gripping Godzilla, is unknown, so I chalk it up to an all-purpose "energy drain" ability.

Destroyah can also break down into smaller attackers, giving him an entirely new capability of fighting an opponent. Also, as we saw in the movie, after sustaining damage to his chest, when returning to his final form, he had added a "shell" to his chest, protecting the once vulnerable area from the same attack. Which leads me to conclude that should SpaceGodzilla deal enough damage to Destroyah to drive him to break down, should Destroyah resume his final form, he would be healed of all previous injury, and his body adapted to compensate for a previous weakness.

Both of these titans can also fly, adding a completely new dimension to this battle. both can use oral attacks when flying, and destroyah can use his tail for strikes and grasping, which for me, gives him a slight advantage.

Of course I;m not leaving out the famous Katana Horn attack. I think SpaceGodzilla would be able to survive multiple strikes from it, but would suffer heavy injury. Luckily for him, his healing factor would enable him to heal these wounds, but only after given the time to do so, as the injuries would be deep, taking more time to heal than superficial ones.

now for me, there are two X-factors to consider. 1: The effect of the MOS on SpaceGodzilla's mutated DNA, and whether or not this would make the space monster more or less vulnerable to the effects of micro-oxygen. 2: The crystal conduits, and if they would help SpaceGodzilla keep Destroyah at a distance, to sustain a ranged attack strategy, and if they could keep SpaceGodzilla fed at a sufficient rate to withstand Destroyah's own assault.


To me, these two titans are very comparable against each other for different reasons, and a true battle between these two, not hampered by budget restraint and SFX technology would be without question one of the most epic battles the Godzilla mythos could offer. To me this battle could go either way, There would not be a winner of this fight, there would be a survivor.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:26 pm

Maybe cause he was facing a, you know, STRONGER GODZILLA?


I said it before, and I'll say it again, Meltdown Godzilla (when under 1190 degrees) is slightly weaker than Heisei Godzilla. They're essentially the same monster, except that Meltdown has worse regeneration and a weaker beam.

Also, as I said before, the MO-Spray is nothing special, it's just a standard kaiju beam.

The same electric touch that didnt do shit to Godzilla?


Pretty sure he yelped in pain a couple times.

Anyway, that's not my point. The fact that Space Godzilla has an electric touch, means that it's pretty much pointless to get in close on him, because the attacks are going to be met with an electric field.

Yeah, IR has said that MD Goji's ray isn;t quite the Spiral Ray, but saying its weaker is a stretch


IR has posted screenshots in the past of how damage each of Godzilla's beams have done, and as he made it very clear, the damage that Meltdown's regular ray did was far less than the damage of Heisei's regular ray. I would post a link to those screenshots, if I could find them.

In general Spacegodzilla is weaker because, in general Spacegodzilla doesn't carry around an energy source.


...Except that he does essentially carry an energy source with him. Every single time he went to a new location in the film, he would immediately get a new energy source.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Legion1979 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:35 pm

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:
I said it before, and I'll say it again, Meltdown Godzilla (when under 1190 degrees) is slightly weaker than Heisei Godzilla.


I still want proof of this. In all the years I've asked for concrete proof via official word from Toho or movie dialogue that can't be disputed I've never gotten this proof.

They're essentially the same monster, except that Meltdown has worse regeneration and a weaker beam.


Again, proof? What are we basing the regen thing on? The slash from the laser horn not healing? Have we ever seen Godzilla take an injury that serious? Could it be that this is just one of those injuries that even good regen can't heal?

Pretty sure he yelped in pain a couple times.


What did? SG's silly little electric touch? Yawn.

Anyway, that's not my point. The fact that Space Godzilla has an electric touch, means that it's pretty much pointless to get in close on him, because the attacks are going to be met with an electric field.


Because little electric slaps are going to keep Destroyah away?

IR has posted screenshots in the past of how damage each of Godzilla's beams have done, and as he made it very clear, the damage that Meltdown's regular ray did was far less than the damage of Heisei's regular ray. I would post a link to those screenshots, if I could find them.


Using screen shots prove shit. Actually, they do prove something. They prove that movies have inconsistent special effects.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:56 pm

I still want proof of this. In all the years I've asked for concrete proof via official word from Toho or movie dialogue that can't be disputed I've never gotten this proof.


...There is proof within movie dialogue. In the Japanese version of the film, when Godzilla is fighting the Super-X 3, the first time Godzilla fires his beam on the ship, the first comments from the pilots is something along the lines of, "You see that? His beam has gotten weaker." I do realize that they changed this line in almost every other version of the film to say that his beam has gotten stronger, but I'll go with the original version of the film and say his ray is weaker.

And in case I didn't make this clear, this is just my opinion, based off of what I've seen in the films. I'm in no way saying that you have to agree with me, since I really don't think that's going to happen at this point.

Again, proof? What are we basing the regen thing on? The slash from the laser horn not healing? Have we ever seen Godzilla take an injury that serious? Could it be that this is just one of those injuries that even good regen can't heal?


Heisei Godzilla took a spear through the middle of his hand, pulled it out, and was fine within a few seconds. Godzilla traveled hundreds (possibly thousands) of miles through molten lava and came out without a scratch. Not once, but twice in the series, Godzilla was dropped from god knows how high, going god knows how fast, and landed with his back to the water, and with another monster on top of him, yet was completely fine, like it never happened.

Heisei Godzilla's regeneration is remarkable, healing wounds that pierced through the bone, and wounds that would be constantly melting his skin away. This is why I say that Meltdown Godzilla's regeneration is weaker.

Because little electric slaps are going to keep Destroyah away?


No, Destoroyah never wanting to get close in battle is what'll keep Destoroyah away.

Using screen shots prove shit. Actually, they do prove something. They prove that movies have inconsistent special effects.


If you look at it like that, sure. But, if you look at from the world of the film, these explosions are actually happening, and are a certain size. You can't blame inconsistent special effects there.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Ethan » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:58 pm

Legion1979 wrote:Using screen shots prove shit. Actually, they do prove something. They prove that movies have inconsistent special effects.

Godzilla films have inconsistent special effects?
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby PopInPicsPresents » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:11 pm

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:
I still want proof of this. In all the years I've asked for concrete proof via official word from Toho or movie dialogue that can't be disputed I've never gotten this proof.


...There is proof within movie dialogue. In the Japanese version of the film, when Godzilla is fighting the Super-X 3, the first time Godzilla fires his beam on the ship, the first comments from the pilots is something along the lines of, "You see that? His beam has gotten weaker." I do realize that they changed this line in almost every other version of the film to say that his beam has gotten stronger, but I'll go with the original version of the film and say his ray is weaker.


Here's the thing. It does say the ray has gotten stronger. I have the Japanese version with subs on my computer. I'll be back after I watch the SG and Dessy battles.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Tomzilla » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:17 pm

Legion1979 wrote:Using screen shots prove shit. Actually, they do prove something. They prove that movies have inconsistent special effects.


Movies also have inconsistent dialogue. Studios are also inconsistent in what they say and mean. That doesn't stop you from taking what they say seriously. If screen shots are shit because of the inconsistent special effects, what's your opinion then? The special effects are inconsistent, so we can't really say anything about the actual scene with the, y'know, monsters. The dialogue says nothing about whether or not Godzilla's atomic breath is more powerful. And I don't know if Toho ever commented on this. That leaves us with hardly anything to discuss.

Way I see it, if what we saw on film is different than what was said on film, I'd side with what we saw. Empirical evidence is the best way to engage in these discussions. Usually, the dialogue doesn't conflict with it anyway, so we're free to use it without issue.

As for the discussion at hand, I'll chime in:

Meltdown Godzilla's red ray isn't weaker than Heisei Godzilla's normal blue ray. No, it's way stronger. Now I don't think Meltdown Godzilla's red rays are more powerful than the Spiral Blasts Heisei Godzilla used on Super MechaGodzilla and SpaceGodzilla. That's what I think needed to be clarified here.

Meltdown Godzilla's red rays, for the most part, are weaker than Heisei Godzilla's Spiral Blasts. This is no longer the case by the time Meltdown Godzilla forces Destoroyah to retreat in the climax. By that time, Meltdown Godzilla's Spiral Blasts are far, far, far more powerful.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Legion1979 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:20 pm

Think about all of this nonsense logically, people. Just think about it for a second and the very idea that Godzilla - hyper radiated, glowing, smoking, so hot the ocean boils when he's in it, about to die in a nuclear explosion (later, meltdown) - would have a weaker ray just comes off as absolutely idiotic. Why would Toho 'roid Godzilla out in such an extreme way for his final film, make him look like a big orange, engine of radioactive death, and then weaken his ray. Why would Toho do anything like that? Logically, it makes no sense.

I'm fine with Burning Godzilla's ray being weaker, or on par, with the standard spiral ray. But below the normal blue one? Give me a break.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby GojiFan » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:30 pm

Legion summed up what I think on the subject nicely. There is absolutely no way the normal blue beam is equal or stronger than MD Godzilla's red beam. That would go against the entire concept of him melting down.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby PopInPicsPresents » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Every time someone puts a up a decent argument about this very topic (Meltdown Godzilla debate) I feel like an ass for changing my opinion on the matter. Gonna change my view on the subject again. Siding with Legion on this one until someone can prove 100% that normal Heisei is stronger.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby Legion1979 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:38 pm

PopInPicsPresents wrote:Every time someone puts a up a decent argument about this very topic (Meltdown Godzilla debate) I feel like an ass for changing my opinion on the matter. Gonna change my view on the subject again. Siding with Legion on this one until someone can prove 100% that normal Heisei is stronger.


And posting a few screen shots (IMHO) isn't proof.

We're all waiting...
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:15 pm

Legion1979 wrote:
PopInPicsPresents wrote:Every time someone puts a up a decent argument about this very topic (Meltdown Godzilla debate) I feel like an ass for changing my opinion on the matter. Gonna change my view on the subject again. Siding with Legion on this one until someone can prove 100% that normal Heisei is stronger.


And posting a few screen shots (IMHO) isn't proof.

We're all waiting...


...

...Then what does constitute as "proof" for you? You're not going to get an official word from Toho on this, so that's out of the question. Therefore, the only thing that we have to go off of this is what was shown in the film. Screenshots are the best way to do that, as we can see how much damage each beam does at the moment it makes an impact on something. They really are the best proof that we have on something like this.

If you don't think that posting screenshots is proof, then I really don't know why you're even bothering with this topic.

EDIT: Okay, I found the screenshots I was looking for. I do apologize to Inferno Rodan for stealing his screenshots.

Here is how much damage Heisei Godzilla's regular atomic ray does:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q54/ ... egular.jpg

Here is how much damage Meltdown Godzilla's ray (below 1190 degrees) does:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q54/ ... Spiral.jpg

Comparing the sizes of those two explosions, I would say that Heisei Godzilla's beam is more powerful.
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby miguelnuva » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:25 pm

So because an explosion is smaller were ignoring Toho's rule of a red godzilla ray is more powerful then a blue godzilla ray?
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Re: Spacegodzilla vs Destoroyah

Postby GotengoXGodzilla » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:29 pm

miguelnuva wrote:So because an explosion is smaller were ignoring Toho's rule of a red godzilla ray is more powerful then a blue godzilla ray?


There is no rule that says Godzilla's red ray is more powerful than Godzilla's blue ray.
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