Biollante...Really.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

That's a good point. After all, Godzilla did not defeat Anguirus with the breath, did he? Godzilla just used its raw power. I just wanted to point out that the breath would bring a new dimension to the threat posed by the giant monsters. Buildings and military units would not only be crushed by Godzilla, but immolated. What I'm thinking of is that horrific moment in StarShip Troopers where the larger tank bug is introduced amongst the battle with the standard arachnids, the part where it proceeds to burn up the soldiers. It would be a nice and horrific contrast to having a monster like Baragon actually eating the military. I'm talking Scylla and Charybdis. A rock and a hard place. Between Baragon eating some of your troops, and Godzilla burning up the apc units and killing all.

Your concept would fit for an R rated Godzilla Movie.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Prolly, but Showa Baragon was a flesh eater, like Ebirah, Gaira and seemingly Hedorah, so its not beyond the realm of possibility. They had the T-Rex eat the lawyer in Jurassic Park after all, and I'm sure that movie was aimed at kids, hence the Gremlins-inspired dwarf Dilophosaurus disposing of Nedry in a relatively comic manner when compared to his rather grisly end involving a 25 foot Dilophosaurus in the book. As for Godzilla burning troop transports, well that can just be glossed over with exploding wreckage in lieu of actually showing soldiers getting burned like in Starship Troopers. It could simply happen in too fast to register, like in War of The Worlds, they could just be reduced to ash in a blink.

[TokyoVigilante]

They had the T-Rex eat the lawyer in Jurassic Park after all, and I'm sure that movie was aimed at kids

What? Not at all. Spielberg promoted the cartoon We're Back! as a safer alternative to take their kids too.

hence the Gremlins-inspired dwarf Dilophosaurus disposing of Nedry in a relatively comic manner when compared to his rather grisly end involving a 25 foot Dilophosaurus in the book.

You mean him getting blinded by tar spit into his eyes then savagely mauled to death?

haha! it's for the kids!

I don't understand at all where you're coming from.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

They had the T-Rex eat the lawyer in Jurassic Park after all, and I'm sure that movie was aimed at kids

What? Not at all. Spielberg promoted the cartoon We're Back! as a safer alternative to take their kids too.

hence the Gremlins-inspired dwarf Dilophosaurus disposing of Nedry in a relatively comic manner when compared to his rather grisly end involving a 25 foot Dilophosaurus in the book.

You mean him getting blinded by tar spit into his eyes then savagely mauled to death?

haha! it's for the kids!

I don't understand at all where you're coming from.

Allow me to elaborate then. First off kids could go see a movie where a T-Rex does to the lawyer basically what Bruce the Shark did to Quint in Jaws, even letting the audience know afterward in the dialogue that the man was ripped in two and accentuated by Ellie Sattler's physical reaction to finding the rest of him.

Now compare this to the Dilophosaurus being comedic like a Gremlin. I believe I'm right about that. The thing was reduced in size many many times smaller than the actual dinosaur, and given a neck frill that stood out at the sides and shook, like the ears on the monsters in Gremlins, a movie that repeatedly hinted at the potential of the Gremlins to kill in a vicious way, but never showing it to happen. That is unless it could be made to look comedic. How the Dilophosaurus ends up in the vehicle with Nedry falls under that category. I saw Jurassic Park in the theater, and when that scene came up, all I thought was that it was darkly funny, like Gremlins. It's even reflected in the overly optimistic music of the film, which has never really gelled well with the gruesome nature of some of the dinosaurs in the film. The theme totally rings hollow in JP3 when compared to all the killing and gory spectacl that went on in that movie.

Now lets compare that Gremlins inspired scene to Nedry's death in the book, because in the book, the camera does not cut away with a vehicle rocking in a tongue in cheek manner. First, You have Nedry get spit on, only this time he does not see where it comes from, he only hears a hooting sound that he thinks is coming from a small animal. The book then goes into detail about how there is venom in the saliva, and that it is slowly paralyzing Nedry in addition to blinding him. He then gets his fat belly cut open and feels his own guts, to be followed shortly after by the description of jaws closing on his head.

So yeah, I do think Spielberg intentionally made that scene into a Gremlins moment, so we could have a nervous laugh at a darkly comedic moment instead of being treated to a scene that belongs in something like Predator or Terminator.

[Living Corpse]

They had the T-Rex eat the lawyer in Jurassic Park after all, and I'm sure that movie was aimed at kids

It was PG-13.

=/

[Rody]

I never considered Nedry's death humorous. Less gruesome than in the book, yes, but still undeniably dark and creepy.

But we're getting off topic.
I, personally, do NOT want Biollante in the film. She certainly deserves to come back, but save her for a sequel. Godzilla needs to have the spotlight for the first one, so his opponent should be somewhat smaller & weaker, with a simpler origin.
Here are kaiju I would consider:
Rodan
Anguirus
Baragon
Titanosaurus

[TokyoVigilante]

Now compare this to the Dilophosaurus being comedic like a Gremlin. I believe I'm right about that. The thing was reduced in size many many times smaller than the actual dinosaur, and given a neck frill that stood out at the sides and shook, like the ears on the monsters in Gremlins, a movie that repeatedly hinted at the potential of the Gremlins to kill in a vicious way, but never showing it to happen. That is unless it could be made to look comedic. How the Dilophosaurus ends up in the vehicle with Nedry falls under that category. I saw Jurassic Park in the theater, and when that scene came up, all I thought was that it was darkly funny, like Gremlins. It's even reflected in the overly optimistic music of the film, which has never really gelled well with the gruesome nature of some of the dinosaurs in the film. The theme totally rings hollow in JP3 when compared to all the killing and gory spectacl that went on in that movie.

Now lets compare that Gremlins inspired scene to Nedry's death in the book, because in the book, the camera does not cut away with a vehicle rocking in a tongue in cheek manner. First, You have Nedry get spit on, only this time he does not see where it comes from, he only hears a hooting sound that he thinks is coming from a small animal. The book then goes into detail about how there is venom in the saliva, and that it is slowly paralyzing Nedry in addition to blinding him. He then gets his fat belly cut open and feels his own guts, to be followed shortly after by the description of jaws closing on his head.

The artistic license taken with the Dilophosaurus was something that Michael Crichton admitted was his own doing for the novel, and Spielberg shrunk the Dilophosaurus down so it wouldn't be confused with the Velociprators. There's never been any mentions of Gremlins in the creative changes done.

Cutting away and not showing carnage is a tried and true tested horror technique to scare the holy skreeonk out of your audience. The scene is darkly humorous because the Dilophosaurus was this cute tiny animal and Nedry is fat and he sorta' has it coming. I don't see how the van shaking around and the monster having a vague resemblance to a completely unrelated creature makes it OK for kids; Nedry is still blinded by a hissing shuttering death lizard and screams horribly as he's mauled to death. but thank goodness we don't see anything because then we can imagine a fate that is far more gruesome and effectively horrifying then anything a filmmaker could ever show us.

Also an R-rated Godzilla film is dumb.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Yes, a PG-13 flim where human characters get violently bitten in half as opposed to just swallowed whole, never to be seen again. Starship Troopers had a similar scene where the commanding officer was bitten in half as well, and that was an R-rated film, go figure. I guess if you put kids in a film you can get away with a bit of gore and human viscera without getting the dreaded R-rating and losing profits. It worked for War of The Worlds, and I know there was a bit of gore in that one. If War of The Worlds could have such stylized violence and get a pg13 rating, I don't see why a Godzilla film could not do the same. I wonder what will be said next, "PG13 Godzilla is dumb"? Gimme a break.

So I guess the shaking and hissing of the gremlins was just a coincidence, not to mention the comedicly small stature of the Dilophosaurus, Nedry bumping his head on the roof of the vehicle and sliipping and falling to what sounds like a cartoon whistle effect? I'm sorry, but that is not remotely at all scary. If you want scary, watch Predator or The Thing. When compared to those two highly popular horror films, Jurassic Park is aimed at kids.

[zilla103192]

... No... It's not.

Just because there are gorier movies out there, doesn't mean that Jurassic Park is made for children.

Does that mean that because there are Comedies like the Hangover Part II that have ALOT raunchier stuff in them (I'm lookin at YOU, tranvestite penis scene!)... That movies like American Pie are made for kids too?

[TokyoVigilante]

If War of The Worlds could have such stylized violence and get a pg13 rating, I don't see why a Godzilla film could not do the same. I wonder what will be said next, "PG13 Godzilla is dumb"? Gimme a break.

The violence has to have a point. War of the Worlds has a reasonable, sensible amount of violence for its subject matter that is handled tastefully. A film like, say, Watchmen despite the violence fitting the dark tone of the film in general feels tacked on and forced. It's senseless spectacle.

I have nothing against a dark Godzilla film if the dark content can be justified. All I've seen for proposals of a "gritty" Godzilla movie have just been the cinematic equivalent of a dick-measuring contest. People think Godzilla is all cheesy but then WOAH! burnt corpses and dismembered people running and screaming in terror! Look how not cheesy Godzilla is!

Not to mention an R-rating will kill the film right out of the gate.

So I guess the shaking and hissing of the gremlins was just a coincidence, not to mention the comedicly small stature of the Dilophosaurus...

...which was explained by Spielberg himself as a means to prevent confusion with the Velociraptors.

Nedry bumping his head on the roof of the vehicle and sliipping and falling to what sounds like a cartoon whistle effect? I'm sorry, but that is not remotely at all scary. If you want scary, watch Predator or The Thing. When compared to those two highly popular horror films, Jurassic Park is aimed at kids.

You're apparent grasp of what makes "horror" scary as being "what's the most gruesome?" is disappointing. The most effective Horror films work by not showing you the monster. Predator is scary because you feel the panic of the best trained men in the world facing a foe that they cannot see or comprehend. The Thing is scary because they cannot immediately identify the alien. Not because they're gruesome. Both films would be moreorless just as terrifying no matter how much gore we saw.

The scene is obviously intended to be somewhat humorous. But just because there's a streak of dark comedy through it doesn't mean that it's "for the kids". That doesn't even make sense.

[Godzilla 2000]

We dont need to see people getting visually scorched by heat rays or crushed by Godzilla's feet for it to be dark. We just need him to do evil things. We need the audience to think Godzilla is despicable.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Apples and oranges. At the time I was growing up in, there were horror movies that you would just have to see, so that you were not one of the kids in the group who had not seen Freddie or Jason yet. These are obviously movies that were not aimed at kids, yet were so popular that kids would actually seek them out. I remember wanting to watch RoboCop when it first aired on cable because it looked like some metal superhero movie, like Iron Man. Imagine my shock when ED-209 turned one of the members at a board meeting to hamburger with live ammo. Now, unless you were some kid that never saw images of predator dinosaurs eviscerating other animals in one of those books at the school library, let alone read Chrichton's novel, I don't see what could be more shocking about Jurassic Park other than the idea of Velociraptors stalking children or the T-Rex biting a guy in half. If Jurassic Park could go there, so could an updated Godzilla film. It already halfway happened with GINO after all, with its offspring actively hunting humans for food. Cloverfield also took that dark turn without exceeding a pg13 rating as well. But I guess I see the point that no one here wants a Godzilla movie to be turned into a gore fest.

It would be as bad as watching aliens killing pregnant women and kids in AVP2.

Actually, come to think of it, I think the Gremlins were actually a bit scarier here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIrd4172 ... re=related


The difference is mostly in the music and the different reactions in the human characters to to the creatures in question. The woman treats the Gremlins as a threat grave enough to brandish a butcher knife, while Nedry just makes jokes about what is about to kill him being small, benign and stupid. The a feeling of horror is also diluted by Nedry bumping his head with a comedic sound, and failing to notice that the creature somehow got into the vehicle in the time it took him to get up and close the door. It might have worked as scary if the locking mechanism on the door suddenly sprang so he could not escape, and if they showed him frantically beating against the window from the outside. Otherwise, it just looks like a comparatively stupid way to die on an island where bigger dinos are stalking and ripping humans apart.

Oh, and as for me not knowing what scary is because I happen to cite horror movies where there is gore without pointing out the psychological horror, I can say the the opposite holds true about you saying that gore has no psychological punch in a horror move. Watch Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds and go and rewatch the scene where Kane has his episode in the cafeteria in the original Alien. I grew up in the eighties and have seen enough of Spielberg films from that time to know when he is going for scary in a scene and when he's clearly not. That's how Poltergeist can have kids in it and at the same time be psychologically scarier than [i]A Nightmare on Elmstreet [/i]

[Living Corpse]

So I guess the shaking and hissing of the gremlins was just a coincidence, not to mention the comedicly small stature of the Dilophosaurus, Nedry bumping his head on the roof of the vehicle and sliipping and falling to what sounds like a cartoon whistle effect? I'm sorry, but that is not remotely at all scary. If you want scary, watch Predator or The Thing. When compared to those two highly popular horror films, Jurassic Park is aimed at kids.

The PG-13 rating didn't exist yet when Gremlins first came out in fact just as Night of The Living Dead resulted in a rating system Gremlins caused the MPPA or whatever there called to make a PG-13 rating.

And just cause it isn't as bad as Preadtor or the Thing does not mean it's light herated. That's like saying Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe is light hearted because it got a teen rating and the fatalities were watered down. No, just no. I don't care if it's not as graphic as other Mortal Kombat games, seeing Batman burned to death by Scorpion or be killed by having his neck snapped by Sonya is still a skreeonk up image even if there is only a few drops of blood.

=/

[TokyoVigilante]

Apples and oranges. At the time I was growing up in, there were horror movies that you would just have to see, so that you were not one of the kids in the group who had not seen Freddie or Jason yet. These are obviously movies that were not aimed at kids, yet were so popular that kids would actually seek them out. I remember wanting to watch RoboCop when it first aired on cable because it looked like some metal superhero movie, like Iron Man. Imagine my shock when ED-209 turned one of the members at a board meeting to hamburger with live ammo. Now, unless you were some kid that never saw images of predator dinosaurs eviscerating other animals in one of those books at the school library, let alone read Chrichton's novel, I don't see what could be more shocking about Jurassic Park other than the idea of Velociraptors stalking children or the T-Rex biting a guy in half.

Pretty sure most kids did that. I'm pretty sure most kids also rooted through their Dad's stuff looking for issues of Playboy or Hustler; doesn't mean that those publications "secretly" for that demographic just because some children don't follow the rules.

There's no point in speaking in terms of "kids watch things they aren't suppose to watch anyways!" because it's far to presumptuous; it assumes that all children are actively seeking out that subject matter. The only fair way to discuss graphic content is in terms of what is generally accepted to be appropriate for that demographic.

If Jurassic Park could go there, so could an updated Godzilla film. It already halfway happened with GINO after all, with its offspring actively hunting humans for food. Cloverfield also took that dark turn without exceeding a pg13 rating as well. But I guess I see the point that no one here wants a Godzilla movie to be turned into a gore fest.

Sure it could. But why does it need to is the question. What purpose does it serve?

The entire motivation behind making a dark and violent Godzilla film is either to A) Emulate the success and critical admiration that Gojira gets and/or B) A desperate attempt to stamp out any accusations of Godzilla being campy and for kids by showing off how dark and brutal it can be.

This is flawed reasoning because Gojira didn't need graphic violence to demonstrate the horror it represented or the destruction that Godzilla unleashed. Seeing an inherently silly character (superhero, giant monster, etc.) partake in excessive violence for the sake of doing so is one of the biggest displays of childish immaturity you can muster. People who think Godzilla is stupid aren't going to be swayed by being gruesome.

Here's a thought; has anyone considered an intelligent and tasteful Godzilla film that shows the dark and apocalyptic overtones it initially represented without showing people get vaporized? How about a Godzilla film that embraces its "for all ages" heritage with a rich display of narrative tones and a relevant social conscious?

Oh, and as for me not knowing what scary is because I happen to cite horror movies where there is gore without pointing out the psychological horror, I can say the the opposite holds true about you saying that gore has no psychological punch in a horror move. Watch Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds and go and rewatch the scene where Kane has his episode in the cafeteria in the original Alien.

Can you quote me where I said this? Because I didn't. This entire disagreement came about because you said that Nedry getting eaten was "OK for kids" because we didn't see anything happen. I contested that the scene uses a technique that's been employed as long as people have been scared of the dark of not showing what's happening and letting your imagination fill in the details. You referenced two brutally violent horror films "If I want something scary" and I told you that "Both films would be moreorless just as terrifying no matter how much gore we saw." Can gore work? of course it can. I never said that it didn't.

I'm not disputing that Gore is scary. I'm disputing the necessity of gore in films to be effective in scaring an audience.

[CatfaceFourtoes]

Wow, this is refreshing, modern film actually helps me in this case. Cloverfield was a gory film that JJ Abrams himself said was his own take on a Godzilla type movie, so it really does not matter what I or anyone else does or does not want to see because the modern American filmmakers at Legendary will probably play it safe and try to follow Cloverfield's example most likely. That film already proves my point about just how dark Godzilla might get. The only thing left is character assassination and childish squabbling over what is and what is not shocking and scary. Frankly, I have better things to do.

For what it's worth, I don't want Godzilla to be a dark affair like Cloverfield with biscuits of blood and gore everywhere and metal things run clean through still living people. That said, I stand by my position that the death of Nedry was a Gremlins inspired moment of dark humor to break up the tension.
And if the movie was not marketed toward the kids, then why were actiion figures of it sold on television to kids, just like Aliens Terminator and RoboCop were. Oh, and that little crack about being a badly raised rule breaking kid was cute. Robocop even had an animated series aside from the toy line. least I talk about how the monsters might interact with the people, and vaporizing people is a lot cleaner and less gory way than depicting them being stepped on, which was talked about in Gojira and will probably be shown in the new film to keep up with cloverfield and be modern. As for the "dick measuring contest", that hardly seems an appropriate analogy, since I was comparing a hypothetical scene of interaction between the monsters and the human military with Scylla and Charybdis, two Greek monsters that were notably female.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I think I derailed this Topic...
I rather want to see a PG-13 rated Godzilla Movie.
Let's talk about Biollante & other Kaijus again.

[Living Corpse]

I think I derailed this Topic...

No you didn't. The internet just happened.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I think I derailed this Topic...

No you didn't. The internet just happened.

I just think this "Rating of Legendary's Godzilla Movie" fits more here:
http://www.tohokingdom.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1932

[Living Corpse]

I think I derailed this Topic...

No you didn't. The internet just happened.

I just think this "Rating of Legendary's Godzilla Movie" fits more here:
http://www.tohokingdom.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1932

Point taken.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I think the best thing would be to use Biollante in the Sequel.
In Legendary's first Godzilla Movie, they should use Anguirus & Rodan, Titanosaurus or a completly new Kaiju.