Monster Discussion #22: Kumonga (Showa)

[King Caesar]

My favorite giant spider of all time. He/she is one smart cookie, and definitely is the strategist despite some unimaginable odds. I felt SoG did a great job of making Spiega scary.

[Tyler]

I wonder why people contemplate his gender.

[TheSecondComing]

^ As long as there are fictional characters, there are people who want to know or figure out every intimate detail about them. Especially the ones even the creators gave no thought to.

[DoctorMafune]

I remember some of my friends in Japan mentioning that among Japanese fans, Kumonga was never a popular opponent for Godzilla... hence, the scarcity of Kumonga toys and kits.

Other than the fact that he's freakishly ugly as well as cunning, this seems unwarranted... Kumonga definitely represented more of a threat to Godzilla than Kamakiras, Ebirah, or several others.

I was under the impression there aren't many toys of those kaiju either.

I think what he means is that even Kamakiras and Ebirah get more toys made of them then Kumonga does.

For example, Ebirah got a Bullmark figure, and Kumonga didn't. Kamakiras got a Bandai figure, and Kumonga didn't.

Kumonga did get a Marmit Vinyl Paradise figure, but Ebirah and Kamakiras each got one, too. Same comment for the Marusan line.

The two instances I can think of offhand where the spider edged out either of the others were (1) in the Marmit ParaBaby line (Kumonga and Kamakiras, but no Ebirah), and (2) a little line of solid-color vinyl capsule toys awhile back that had some offbeat choices, including Gailah and Kumonga.

OK, just went to Club Tokyo to check the actual counts. Ebirah has 28 toys listed, Kumonga has 11... edging out Kamakiras by 1(though I didn't try to partial out repaints / lucky bag editions of the same figures.)

So one could argue that Kumonga's not getting his fair share of the toys, given his stature as an opponent. IMO, that formidable an enemy should get more toy action than something as easy to put away as the big shrimp or one of those mantises.

Then again, it probably has something to do with how difficult it is to make a hairy spider look "cute" enough for a retro-style vinyl...

...and toys are the consolation prizes, anyway: What we really need is a huge, 30-cm scale X-Plus Kumonga pre-paint.

[Legion1979]

For example, Ebirah got a Bullmark figure, and Kumonga didn't.

Marusan actually first put out the Ebirah, not Bullmark But they didn't do a Kamakiras either. I've always wondered why neither of these guys were made by Marusan. Possibly the company wasn't sure how to make figures like these in the style they were using. Who knows.

Kamakiras got a Bandai figure, and Kumonga didn't.

But then, neither did Ebirah. I think it's all a coincidence.

The two instances I can think of offhand where the spider edged out either of the others were (1) in the Marmit ParaBaby line (Kumonga and Kamakiras, but no Ebirah), and (2) a little line of solid-color vinyl capsule toys awhile back that had some offbeat choices, including Gailah and Kumonga.

Y-MSF has also done a Kumonga. A prototype for Kamakiras was created, but was never released.

So one could argue that Kumonga's not getting his fair share of the toys, given his stature as an opponent. IMO, that formidable an enemy should get more toy action than something as easy to put away as the big shrimp or one of those mantises.

I personally think saying one character is more toy worthy because of how powerful an opponent it is is incredibly silly. I don't think power really factors in when it comes to what toys get made. I don't think the Japanese think that way. If they did, Baragon wouldn't be so popular compared to much tougher monsters.

It's also very possible that Ebirah and Kamakiras are slightly more popular with toy companies because their designs show a little big more creativity and personality than Kumonga, who is a pretty nondescript spider.

[DoctorMafune]

I personally think saying one character is more toy worthy because of how powerful an opponent it is is incredibly silly.

It's all right, Legion... let it out, dude. There are 12-Step Programs for this... you can develop social skills, and we'll all be pulling for you.

[Gojira-Fan]

I personally think saying one character is more toy worthy because of how powerful an opponent it is is incredibly silly.

It's all right, Legion... let it out, dude. There are 12-Step Programs for this... you can develop social skills, and we'll all be pulling for you.

I didn't find anything anti-social about his post.

You are clearly flamebaiting.

[Legion1979]

Who is he anyway? He clearly knows me, considering the flame bait.

[DoctorMafune]

I didn't find anything anti-social about his post.

You apparently didn't notice the part where he took one idea he didn't agree with — even though he presented no evidence against it — and called it "incredibly silly."

I really didn't imagine that someone who obviously knows his toys would choose to ignore the fact that King Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla, Gigan and Hedorah — Showa Godzilla's most powerful opponents — earned boatloads of toy replicas, whereas lightweights like Ebirah, Kamakiras and the Giant Condor, got far fewer.

Almost immediately, he (or someone else who's not paying attention to the statements he attacks) will jump in and say, "Hey, wait a minute... KG, MG, Gigan and Hedorah are more popular, too, and they got more screen time!"

Of course they are, and of course they did. And does anyone imagine that's a coincidence?

They're more popular in part because they are (a) well designed and (b) MORE POWERFUL.

Or does someone want to argue that that's "incredibly silly," too... and that Godzilla's popularity (on screen and in toy stores) has nothing to do with the fact that he's one of the most powerful monsters ever put on film?

And I suppose the Hulk's strength has nothing to do with his popularity, either.

In my earlier post, I did address the "Baragon factor" — i.e., "cuteness" — too... something else Legion chose to ignore before jumping in to hurl insults. Not that Baragon is relevant to my point about Godzilla's opponents, either... Showa Godzilla never fought Baragon, and I specifically addressed Showa Godzilla's opponents. Baragon's appeal came from what he did (and what he looked like) in his own film.

So what about Baragon and all of his toys? Baragon was a standout in a smaller scale, and in a non-Godzilla film. He was given a cute, puppy-dog face, which is — like I said in my first post — another factor in popularity as a toy.

And in case anybody's paying attention, Baragon was also more powerful than most of the other monsters in his size class, too.

So, one more time: there are likely multiple factors in a monster's popularity, both onscreen and in the toy stores. Design is one. "Cuteness" is another. And power level — which in turn, likely contributes to popularity, just like design does — sure as Hell looks like a third. (Quality of the movie may be a fourth. The list goes on.)

Kumonga (again, like I said) flunks the "cute" factor, which may help to explain why, when it comes to the relationship between power as a Showa G-opponent, and marketability as a toy back then, he's an outlier.... getting fewer toys than Ebirah, for example. Or it may not, but it's a viable idea... and there's nothing "silly" about it.

Powerful monsters — in general, though not without exception (before someone starts yelling about Mothra) — are more popular.

So let me challenge Legion to express his views without calling someone else's views "incredibly silly"... especially if he's not willing to take a second look at those views, and see whether they happen to match the numbers.

[Gojira-Fan]

I didn't find anything anti-social about his post.

You apparently didn't notice the part where he took one idea he didn't agree with — even though he presented no evidence against it — and called it "incredibly silly."

I really didn't imagine that someone who obviously knows his toys would choose to ignore the fact that King Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla, Gigan and Hedorah — Showa Godzilla's most powerful opponents — earned boatloads of toy replicas, whereas lightweights like Ebirah, Kamakiras and the Giant Condor, got far fewer.

Almost immediately, he (or someone else who's not paying attention to the statements he attacks) will jump in and say, "Hey, wait a minute... KG, MG, Gigan and Hedorah are more popular, too, and they got more screen time!"

Of course they are, and of course they did. And does anyone imagine that's a coincidence?

They're more popular in part because they are (a) well designed and (b) MORE POWERFUL.

Or does someone want to argue that that's "incredibly silly," too... and that Godzilla's popularity (on screen and in toy stores) has nothing to do with the fact that he's one of the most powerful monsters ever put on film?

And I suppose the Hulk's strength has nothing to do with his popularity, either.

In my earlier post, I did address the "Baragon factor" — i.e., "cuteness" — too... something else Legion chose to ignore before jumping in to hurl insults. Not that Baragon is relevant to my point about Godzilla's opponents, either... Showa Godzilla never fought Baragon, and I specifically addressed Showa Godzilla's opponents. Baragon's appeal came from what he did (and what he looked like) in his own film.

So what about Baragon and all of his toys? Baragon was a standout in a smaller scale, and in a non-Godzilla film. He was given a cute, puppy-dog face, which is — like I said in my first post — another factor in popularity as a toy.

And in case anybody's paying attention, Baragon was also more powerful than most of the other monsters in his size class, too.

So, one more time: there are likely multiple factors in a monster's popularity, both onscreen and in the toy stores. Design is one. "Cuteness" is another. And power level — which in turn, likely contributes to popularity, just like design does — sure as Hell looks like a third. (Quality of the movie may be a fourth. The list goes on.)

Kumonga (again, like I said) flunks the "cute" factor, which may help to explain why, when it comes to the relationship between power as a Showa G-opponent, and marketability as a toy back then, he's an outlier.... getting fewer toys than Ebirah, for example. Or it may not, but it's a viable idea... and there's nothing "silly" about it.

Powerful monsters — in general, though not without exception (before someone starts yelling about Mothra) — are more popular.

So let me challenge Legion to express his views without calling someone else's views "incredibly silly"... especially if he's not willing to take a second look at those views, and see whether they happen to match the numbers.

Now, I don't really collect toys, but how is him stating something is "incredibly silly" insulting?

[DoctorMafune]

Now, I don't really collect toys, but how is him stating something is "incredibly silly" insulting?

Well, let's see... the next time you express an opinion, and someone calls it "incredibly silly," I wonder if you'll consider that an insult, or not?

And whether you would or not, quite frankly, I don't believe you're mystified by someone in that situation properly referring to it as an insult.

[TokyoVigilante]

You're right, since Mike was being a dick first, you talking down to him accusing him of requiring therapy just makes you a shining avenger of fairness, right?

"Silly" is an adjective associated with small kids, circuses, bright colors, the three stooges, and general clownery. The fact that you've taken such offense to it when he could've used actual offensive words like stupid, retarded, dumb, pointless, etc. is mind blowing.

Also, I would be inclined to agree that a monster being more "powerful" is an incredibly shallow and superficial way to evaluate a monsters popularity. How many toys does Armor Mothra have, since that is pretty much the unanimously agreed upon defacto ultimate monster of ultimate power? Doesn't Minya or the young Godzillas from the Heisei films have tons of toys? What about Mothra larva?

[DoctorMafune]

You're right, since Mike was being a dick first, you talking down to him accusing him of requiring therapy just makes you a shining avenger of fairness, right?

"Silly" is an adjective associated with small kids, circuses, bright colors, the three stooges, and general clownery. The fact that you've taken such offense to it when he could've used actual offensive words like stupid, retarded, dumb, pointless, etc. is mind blowing.

Please don't pretend that if someone referred to one of your ideas as "incredibly silly," you wouldn't take offense. You're not fooling anyone.

Also, I would be inclined to agree that a monster being more "powerful" is an incredibly shallow and superficial way to evaluate a monsters popularity. How many toys does Armor Mothra have, since that is pretty much the unanimously agreed upon defacto ultimate monster of ultimate power? Doesn't Minya or the young Godzillas from the Heisei films have tons of toys? What about Mothra larva?

You can attack that point of view all you want, TV, but of course, that isn't what I said.

And gangs don't make the one who sucker-punched someone right. They're just gangs.

[Lord Gappa]

So...just because someone disagrees with you and another person disagrees with you as well, they're "ganging up" on you?

[Living Corpse]

An idea: Drop it.

[DoctorMafune]

My feeling is that anyone else who wants to read through this exchange can draw his/her own conclusions.

I think it's time for that.

[Legion1979]

You're right, since Mike was being a dick first, you talking down to him accusing him of requiring therapy just makes you a shining avenger of fairness, right?

My social skills are just fine. I don't need any help in that department.

Also, I would be inclined to agree that a monster being more "powerful" is an incredibly shallow and superficial way to evaluate a monsters popularity. How many toys does Armor Mothra have, since that is pretty much the unanimously agreed upon defacto ultimate monster of ultimate power? Doesn't Minya or the young Godzillas from the Heisei films have tons of toys? What about Mothra larva?

You are absolutely on the friggin' money here, especially what I bolded. "Power = Popularity" IS very shallow and something that I see mainly with younger fans who think power is the be-all, end-all. Some of the more popular monsters in Japanese film aren't all that powerful, and the one's that ARE the most powerful (like Space Godzilla and Armor Mothra) aren't popular at all in Japan.

[DoctorMafune]

C'mon, guys... instead of continuing to bash each other, let's move the question of what makes monsters popular over to the other thread, and have some fun comparing notes with other people's ideas.

Hell, I even apologized over there. Sort of.

You don't have to like what I like, and vice versa. From here on out, I will try to disagree without being disagreeable.

See you on the other thread.

[King Caesar]

So about that giant daikaiju-eating spider...What's the deal with his eyes changing colors? They were when he rolled over on his back, but blueish when he was standing...seems like an intricate detail that Toho didn't normally apply to monsters.

[Living Corpse]

So about that giant daikaiju-eating spider...What's the deal with his eyes changing colors? They were when he rolled over on his back, but blueish when he was standing...seems like an intricate detail that Toho didn't normally apply to monsters.

They use that sometimes with bug type monsters, like how Battra's eyes grow dim when he dies.