Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

[KaneLocke]

Well you know, its my THIRD favorite movie

First of all, kid... PLEASE learn how to quote. No offense, but that was a bitch to try and read.

And Heisei Godzilla beat me to the punch.

[Svitska Donkun]

You claim the film embracing the 70's aspect wasn't a good move. I think that was a great move, I mean let's face it, the fights from the late 60's and 70's were the best. I think what the later Godzilla movies were lacking was fun. Back in the early movies, it's hard not to cheer when you see Rodan picking up Godzilla and they tackle King Ghidorah. I think it was wise bringing those type of things back, for the fans that haven't seen the older films.

The only overtly goofy thing I remember from the 60's films is Godzilla's dance in Monster Zero. Every film up to Revenge treated Godzilla fairly seriously. And even in Revenge Godzilla wasn't doing ridiculous shit. I don't think he did anything goofy in Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla, Unless you count bleeding copious amounts of blood. So that leaves 4 movies out of 28 where he acted goofy. Hardly an accurate representation of Godzilla. Furthermore, most scholars and fans consider this period the franchise's dark times. Any other goofiness in prior films would've just been SFX flaws. So should we really emulate bad special effects in a modern film we wish to be taken serious? Can't fans just see the older films? Doesn't that seem like a step back?

Now I'm going to agree with you on Godzilla not being the main focus. I just think that the franchise has grown so much with its colorful monsters, that they wanted to go the "DESTROY ALL MONSTERS" route if you know what I mean.

But they didn;t go that route because the film wasn't about the monsters.

You're right, as a 50th anniversary, it could have been better. (It was too much in the late Showa era.) DESTROY ALL MONSTERS was marketed as the "big thing" back then. It makes sense that they would market FW as "the DESTROY ALL MONSTERS for this generation."

Could've been better? By that I hope you mean it could've meant something, anything, to the Godzilla franchise as a whole. Not an immature 12 year old's wet dream that had Godzilla in it at one point. (I didn;t bring up the ludicrous sexualization of the film in my post!) And it wasn't marketed as DAM, it was marketed as Godzilla's Last Film.

[Destroyer]

I mean let's face it, the fights from the late 60's and 70's were the best. I think what the later Godzilla movies were lacking was fun. Back in the early movies, it's hard not to cheer when you see Rodan picking up Godzilla and they tackle King Ghidorah. I think it was wise bringing those type of things back, for the fans that haven't seen the older films.

You do realize that Invasion Of The Astro-Monster came out in 1965, right? And not the Seventies?

If GFW invoked the 60s, then it might have been better. But the goofy 70s? Not so much. Hell, it might have worked to invoke the 70s, but if it attempted to do just that, it's almost impossible to tell. Outside of the filmmakers nodding to past Godzilla films, as Kane pointed out, it doesn't reference anything else to previous Godzilla films. That's not a "tribute" or anything like that.

A good example is Terror of Mechagodzilla. Those great fights had tackles, headlocks, Titanosaurus with his karate moves, I believe Final Wars was trying to evoke that sense of style.

If they wanted to go with the same route as Destroy All Monsters, then they really screwed up along the way. In DAM, the monsters are integrated fairly well into the main story, by becoming the main bodyguards and puppets of the Kilaaks. In GFW, the monsters get pushed to the side, even by the Xiliens. Once they show up, they basically say screw the monsters and just take care of things themselves.

Weak.

The Xiliens still needed the monsters, they sent Gigan after Gotengo, the world was slowly dying through all the carnage.

...Except that the late Showa era was awesome, and GFW sucked. I would gladly take Godzilla vs. Megalon or Godzilla vs. Gigan over GFW any day.

Wow, even Vs. Megalon. That's almost as interesting as saying the American film was better.

Except that they didn't market it as the Destroy All Monsters of this generation.

I was on the internet constantly when GFW was in the marketing phase, and I never ONCE heard Toho or any of the filmmakers compare GFW to Destroy All Monsters.

They did.....I'll try to find a link to something. It went something like this: "The new DESTROY ALL MONSTERS." I know I heard it, but I believe it was pretty obvious anyway that it was a modern DESTROY ALL MONSTERS.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

Wow, even Vs. Megalon. That's almost as interesting as saying the American film was better.

What qualities, may I ask, does Godzilla vs Megalon have that make it a weaker film than Final Wars?

[GotengoXGodzilla]

A good example is Terror of Mechagodzilla. Those great fights had tackles, headlocks, Titanosaurus with his karate moves, I believe Final Wars was trying to evoke that sense of style.

Except that the Black Hole Aliens and the Xiliens are nothing alike. They have two different styles of taking over the world and want two totally different things, with the Black Hole Aliens wanting a new home, where as the Xiliens want to use humans like cattle.

Terror Of MechaGodzilla and GFW are nothing alike, even in terms of fighting style or atmosphere.

The Xiliens still needed the monsters, they sent Gigan after Gotengo, the world was slowly dying through all the carnage.

So? In Destroy All Monsters the monsters were still apart of the main story. In GFW, they weren't. They were just puppets that felt like they were thrown in halfway through the filmmaking process.

Wow, even Vs. Megalon. That's almost as interesting as saying the American film was better.

Godzilla vs. Megalon is entertaining as hell and isn't a big middle finger to the Godzilla fanbase, unlike GFW.

They did.....I'll try to find a link to something. It went something like this: "The new DESTROY ALL MONSTERS." I know I heard it, but I believe it was pretty obvious anyway that it was a modern DESTROY ALL MONSTERS.

You're probably thinking of James Rolfe.

Either way, Destroy All Monsters and GFW have very little in common, so GFW is not the modern Destroy All Monsters.

[Destroyer]

Wow, even Vs. Megalon. That's almost as interesting as saying the American film was better.

What qualities, may I ask, does Godzilla vs Megalon have that make it a weaker film than Final Wars?

There was ZERO character development, stock footage galore, and the pacing was lousy. Cheesy, and infamous for being the movie that gets look down upon as "cheap children's entertainment." Don't get me wrong, I like Vs. Megalon, but to say it's a better film than Final Wars is quite remarkable.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Wow, even Vs. Megalon. That's almost as interesting as saying the American film was better.

What qualities, may I ask, does Godzilla vs Megalon have that make it a weaker film than Final Wars?

There was ZERO character development, stock footage galore, and the pacing was lousy. Cheesy, and infamous for being the movie that gets look down upon as "cheap children's entertainment." Don't get me wrong, I like Vs. Megalon, but to say it's a better film than Final Wars is quite remarkable.

While the characters and story suck in Godzilla vs. Megalon, the fight scenes and the car chases are better than anything in GFW. When it comes to the important parts of the film, there is little to no stock footage, and you can tell that the filmmakers are trying their best to make this film entertaining. And they succeed. It's just the kind of film that you can turn your brain off to, and just enjoy some 70s Godzilla action. On top of that, the MST3K version of it some of the best enjoyment one will get in an hour and a half.

Godzilla: Final Wars, on the other hand, is not entertaining. The parts that would be entertaining are over before the entertainment can begin. I really don't feel like explaining why, since I've done that already.

Basically, I still stand by what I said in my last post:

Godzilla vs. Megalon is entertaining as hell and isn't a big middle finger to the Godzilla fanbase, unlike GFW.

[Destroyer]

While the characters and story suck in Godzilla vs. Megalon, the fight scenes and the car chases are better than anything in GFW. When it comes to the important parts of the film, there is little to no stock footage, and you can tell that the filmmakers are trying their best to make this film entertaining. And they succeed. It's just the kind of film that you can turn your brain off to, and just enjoy some 70s Godzilla action. On top of that, the MST3K version of it some of the best enjoyment one will get in an hour and a half.

Godzilla: Final Wars, on the other hand, is not entertaining. The parts that would be entertaining are over before the entertainment can begin. I really don't feel like explaining why, since I've done that already.

Final Wars might not be Inception level of movie making quality, but the last thing it makes you feel is bored. It's one of the most fast paced films I've ever seen. Like, just when you're starting to lose interest, they pull one of the most epic scenes in Godzilla history: Rodan attacks NYC. I still get that "wow" feeling every time I hear his roar and then the airplane blows up. And when Godzilla awakens, it's nonstop action. Saying it's a bad film is fine, but not calling it entertaining.....that's truly something else.

[Svitska Donkun]

I guess my points made too much sense to retort to....

*Forever Alone*

Final Wars might not be Inception level of movie making quality, but the last thing it makes you feel is bored. It's one of the most fast paced films I've ever seen. Like, just when you're starting to lose interest, they pull one of the most epic scenes in Godzilla history: Rodan attacks NYC. I still get that "wow" feeling every time I hear his roar and then the airplane blows up. And when Godzilla awakens, it's nonstop action. Saying it's a bad film is fine, but not calling it entertaining.....that's truly something else.

So is Inception your highwater mark on what movies can possibly be...?

Also, GFW had God awful pacing, for the sole fact that you just want Godzilla to appear so badly so you can stop cringing at every single thing in the film. The wait is unbearable. Rodan attacking NYC is not one of GFW's best effects, as the suit didn;t mathc up with the CG around it well. Its also ruined completely by one scene preceding it involving black people.

Just because a film has non stop action doesn;t disqualify it from being called bad. People are so stupid these days that they can't decopher good action from bad action. There's action like in Transformers of GFW that's uninvolving and stupid, and then there's action in Inception, for instance, that's involving, creative, and suspenseful. Just because something is actiony does not mean its immune to criticism.

[KaneLocke]

Final Wars might not be Inception level of movie making quality, but the last thing it makes you feel is bored. It's one of the most fast paced films I've ever seen. Like, just when you're starting to lose interest, they pull one of the most epic scenes in Godzilla history: Rodan attacks NYC. I still get that "wow" feeling every time I hear his roar and then the airplane blows up. And when Godzilla awakens, it's nonstop action. Saying it's a bad film is fine, but not calling it entertaining.....that's truly something else.

... what?

A good half of the movie is spent vaguely exploring the subplot of choice. In what way is that entertaining? In what way is it entertaining to watch 2 minutes of monster action for every 10 of forced, weak human drama?

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Final Wars might not be Inception level of movie making quality, but the last thing it makes you feel is bored.

Actually, that is the first thing I feel. Being bored. That and disappointment. In fact, that pretty much describes exactly how I feel about GFW: Boring and disappointing.

It's one of the most fast paced films I've ever seen.

I will say that it's the fastest paced film I've ever seen...but that is FAR from a good thing. The pace is so fast, that if you blink, you'll miss something.

Having a fast-paced film is not a good thing, dude.

just when you're starting to lose interest, they pull one of the most epic scenes in Godzilla history: Rodan attacks NYC.

...How is that scene "epic"? Lawrence Of Arabia is epic. The Ten Commandments is epic. Ben-Hur is epic. Rodan attacking a city, something he's done before many times, is not epic.

Hell, that's not even a good scene. The beginning with the "cop" and "pimp" (I use quotations, because I seriously doubt that Toho knows what how a real cop and pimp act) instantly makes that scene a comical one, because now you want to see people die, because those two make you root for the monster. And that's not good when we're suppose to take this film seriously.

I still get that "wow" feeling every time I hear his roar and then the airplane blows up.

...*facepalm*

And when Godzilla awakens, it's nonstop action.

...As Godzilla 2000 said near the beginning of the thread, "...for 12 minutes."

The action after Godzilla awakens is so short that it's hardly worth mentioning. It basically comes off like the filmmakers intended those scenes to be filler/padding until the Gotengo gets back to Tokyo, so that Kitamura could film more Kung-Fu.

[Destroyer]

I guess my points made too much sense to retort to....

*Forever Alone*
No, I'm just juggling responses.

Final Wars might not be Inception level of movie making quality, but the last thing it makes you feel is bored. It's one of the most fast paced films I've ever seen. Like, just when you're starting to lose interest, they pull one of the most epic scenes in Godzilla history: Rodan attacks NYC. I still get that "wow" feeling every time I hear his roar and then the airplane blows up. And when Godzilla awakens, it's nonstop action. Saying it's a bad film is fine, but not calling it entertaining.....that's truly something else.

So is Inception your highwater mark on what movies can possibly be...?

Also, GFW had God awful pacing, for the sole fact that you just want Godzilla to appear so badly so you can stop cringing at every single thing in the film. The wait is unbearable. Rodan attacking NYC is not one of GFW's best effects, as the suit didn;t mathc up with the CG around it well. Its also ruined completely by one scene preceding it involving black people.

Just because a film has non stop action doesn;t disqualify it from being called bad. People are so stupid these days that they can't decopher good action from bad action. There's action like in Transformers of GFW that's uninvolving and stupid, and then there's action in Inception, for instance, that's involving, creative, and suspenseful. Just because something is actiony does not mean its immune to criticism.

I know what you mean, but I do understand what the difference is. (I've been reviewing movies/comics for awhile on another site.) I'll repeat what I just said, people can call Final Wars a bad film, but it is very entertaining. It's one of those films were you just don't lose interest. And when Godzilla does come back, your interest level peaks up.

[Svitska Donkun]

I know what you mean, but I do understand what the difference is. (I've been reviewing movies/comics for awhile on another site.) I'll repeat what I just said, people can call Final Wars a bad film, but it is very entertaining. It's one of those films were you just don't lose interest. And when Godzilla does come back, your interest level peaks up.

If you "know what I mean", then you'd be agreeing with me...

The film never lost my interest because it never had it. All I wanted was to see a decent Godzilla movie, but I ended up wanting to kill myself waiting for Godzilla to be relevant, then being immensely disappointed when he did. And there must be some truth to this, as the majority of fans will agree. Films need to be entertaining to be good. Being good and entertaining are not two separate things. Most people were not entertained.

Let the record show that I'm not saying its dumb to like GFW, but you like it for dumb reasons.

Also, that website you mentioned must be simply terrifying.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

It's one of those films were you just don't lose interest. And when Godzilla does come back, your interest level peaks up.

Maybe YOU don't lose interest and YOUR interest piques when Godzilla is gone. But, obviously, that's not how most of us feel about it. Everyone has given you legitimate complaints they have with the movie, but you still try to defend those faults.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

I'll repeat what I just said, people can call Final Wars a bad film, but it is very entertaining. It's one of those films were you just don't lose interest. And when Godzilla does come back, your interest level peaks up.

I think we've already explained why GFW is not entertaining multiple times.

The fights are WAY too short to enjoy (blink and you'll miss them) and most of them don't have any relevance in the long run. Why should we even care about what's going on with Godzilla when he doesn't do anything big for the story until the meteor shows up?

And yeah, I do lose interest, because the characters are so bland and uninteresting, that I really don't care what happens to them. If I have no reason to care for the main characters, then the action scenes have no meaning.

The only thing that Godzilla's return provides is a look at something else that is just as uninteresting as the human plot.

[Destroyer]

I know what you mean, but I do understand what the difference is. (I've been reviewing movies/comics for awhile on another site.) I'll repeat what I just said, people can call Final Wars a bad film, but it is very entertaining. It's one of those films were you just don't lose interest. And when Godzilla does come back, your interest level peaks up.

If you "know what I mean", then you'd be agreeing with me...

The film never lost my interest because it never had it. All I wanted was to see a decent Godzilla movie, but I ended up wanting to kill myself waiting for Godzilla to be relevant, then being immensely disappointed when he did. And there must be some truth to this, as the majority of fans will agree. Films need to be entertaining to be good. Being good and entertaining are not two separate things. Most people were not entertained.

Let the record show that I'm not saying its dumb to like GFW, but you like it for dumb reasons.

Also, that website you mentioned must be simply terrifying.

I like the film cause it was a fun monster romp with great monster scenes, a great soundtrack, and it was always on the move. (A good thing in my opinion.) I wouldn't call them dumb reasons. I liked Final Wars, all of you guys make great statements, and I will continue to defend the film, but in the end, the majority doesn't like it, while some, like myself, enjoy it every time.

Never have I felt so alone in a forum debate, haha.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

I like the film cause it was a fun monster romp

...Isn't not about the monsters, though. It's about bland human characters. They're the main focus of the story, due.

with great monster scenes

*facepalm*

I really don't see how you can think that the monster scenes in GFW are "great", when there are better monster scenes in All Monsters Attack, let alone amazing Godzilla films like Mothra vs. Godzilla, King Kong vs. Godzilla and parts of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah.

a great soundtrack

Yes, a soundtrack that has probably three or four pieces of hit-and-miss music that it just keeps playing on repeat...wait...

and it was always on the move

I'll say it again...How is that a good thing?

I wouldn't call them dumb reasons

Almost everything you've said up to the this point has been pointed out by at least one of us and has been shown what's wrong with it. For once I agree with Svitska, the reasons for why you like GFW are dumb.

[Svitska Donkun]

I like the film cause it was a fun monster romp with great monster scenes, a great soundtrack, and it was always on the move.

I don't get it. You keep saying we make great points, yet you keep saying the same flat statements over and over again without anything to back them up. You're not so much defending GFW, as you are spamming it.

Never have I felt so alone in a forum debate, haha.

This surprises me.

[Destroyer]

...Isn't not about the monsters, though. It's about bland human characters. They're the main focus of the story, due.

I know it's not ABOUT the monsters, but it was still great to see them all under one film.

*facepalm*

I really don't see how you can think that the monster scenes in GFW are "great", when there are better monster scenes in All Monsters Attack, let alone amazing Godzilla films like Mothra vs. Godzilla, King Kong vs. Godzilla and parts of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah.

Rodan attacks NYC, the rise of Gigan, Monster X's transformation into Keiser Ghidorah. The fights were incredible with the effects, Mothra vs. Gigan combined with the dramatic music was plain epic.

Yes, a soundtrack that has probably three or four pieces of hit-and-miss music that it just keeps playing on repeat...wait...

All of the songs were good, they only repeated certain jingles. They made the film more energetic. (Yes, I also loved that SUM 41 song they used.)

I'll say it again...How is that a good thing?

Sometimes it's not, but for me and monster movies, it's good. I don't like movies that drag on. (I'm looking at you King Kong.)

Almost everything you've said up to the this point has been pointed out by at least one of us and has been shown what's wrong with it. For once I agree with Svitska, the reasons for why you like GFW are dumb.

Sigh, I've attempted explaining my position, but I'll just say this: You dislike Final Wars, while I enjoy it.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

I know it's not ABOUT the monsters, but it was still great to see them all under one film.

...What?

*sigh* Just because there's a bunch of monsters in it does not make it great. That's like saying if you put every single Marvel and DC superhero in one film, but they make the film about some unknown kid whose having problems with his family, that it makes the film great anyway. That is some seriously messed up logic, dude.

Rodan attacks NYC, the rise of Gigan, Monster X's transformation into Keiser Ghidorah.

...How are any of those "great"? Rodan's scene is ruined by the "cop" and "pimp". Gigan's is so fast that it comes off the like the filmmakers don't give a damn. And Monster X's transformation is just weird and awkward.

The fights were incredible with the effects

...They really weren't. The effects in Godzilla 2000 were way better than any effect shot in GFW. Hell, I'd take the effects of 60s Godzilla films over the effects of GFW. At least those looked realistic.

Mothra vs. Gigan combined with the dramatic music was plain epic.

As I said, there are better monster scenes in All Monsters Attack, which I don't even like. Then there's other monster scenes in films like Ghidrah, The Three-Headed Monster, Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla or Son Of Godzilla. They easily blow the monster scenes from GFW out of the freakin' water.

Sometimes it's not, but for me and monster movies, it's good. I don't like movies that drag on. (I'm looking at you King Kong.)

There's a difference between "Fast paced action sequences" and "So fast that if I blink I'll miss it", you know. GFW falls into the second category.

Sigh, I've attempted explaining my position, but I'll just say this: You dislike Final Wars, while I enjoy it.

As Svitska said, all you've done is make the same points over and over again, usually something like "It has great monster scenes" or "It has lots of monsters in it", yet never back them up. So, I'll say that no, you haven't attempted to explain your position.

You say that you do reviews on another website, yet you fail to do what film reviewers attempt to do in every single review: Explain why something is good or bad. All you've done is say the same statements, all of which have been rebuked. If you really want to defend GFW, then back up your statements.