Monster Discussion #47: Battra

[Crimson_Raptor]

While I like Battra's design I was disappointed by his/her execution

I'm still unsure how to catagorize Battra though. Is Battra an Insect, Mutated Insect, a bug, an atomic abomination, a spiritual manifestation (i.e. the transformation into Battra's Imago form), created by the Twins (i.e., laser refracting eyes), where does this monster fall into. If Battra is the Heisei version of Megalon, then how does Megalon fall into that then, as a Cyborg (i.e. metal hands, napalm bombs), mutated Bettle, etc.?

[tymon]

What would you call King Ghidorah then? A giant, golden three-headed what exactly?

....

Monster?

...You're telling me MechaGodzilla is nothing like Godzilla?

...Yes. Was MechaGodzilla created by an atomic explosion? Is Godzilla always being controlled by space aliens/humans? Can Godzilla shot missiles and lasers out of his eyes, feet, hands, etc.? Is MechaGodzilla symbolic of the fears of nuclear annihilation?

Again, MechaGodzilla and Godzilla are nothing a like. Just because they both have "Godzilla" in their name, doesn't mean that damn thing.

True, but wasn't Mechagodzilla based on Godzilla in all three incarnations (hence the name)? The first one even wore a Godzilla suit as disguise, and Kiryu was made of 54's bones...they look alike in basic shape and proportions, except one's made of metal. It's a little strange to say they're "nothing alike", despite their obvious differences in origin.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

True, but wasn't Mechagodzilla based on Godzilla in all three incarnations (hence the name)? The first one even wore a Godzilla suit as disguise, and Kiryu was made of 54's bones...they look alike in basic shape and proportions, except one's made of metal. It's a little strange to say they're "nothing alike".

Yes, but that doesn't mean that MechaGodzilla is Godzilla, like what JVM is saying. He's saying that MechaGodzilla is just Godzilla, but just a robot, which is total and complete bullshit. In concept, the two are nothing a like. One is a symbol for nuclear destruction, and the other is an instrument of either aliens or humans (depending on the era) to either end all life on earth or defend the earth (again, depending on the era).

It doesn't matter if they look the same or have similar names, they're two very different monsters.

[JVM]

...Yes. Was MechaGodzilla created by an atomic explosion? Is Godzilla always being controlled by space aliens/humans? Can Godzilla shot missiles and lasers out of his eyes, feet, hands, etc.? Is MechaGodzilla symbolic of the fears of nuclear annihilation?

In concept, the two are nothing a like. One is a symbol for nuclear destruction, and the other is an instrument of either aliens or humans (depending on the era) to either end all life on earth or defend the earth (again, depending on the era).[/quoote]
Apparently we have two different definitions of what a "concept" is then. No wonder this argument isn't going anywhere - we're not even talking about the same thing, lol

Again, MechaGodzilla and Godzilla are nothing a like. Just because they both have "Godzilla" in their name, doesn't mean that damn thing. That's like saying that The Martian Manhunter is Superman, but with a twist, because they both have "Man" in their name. Or that Pardon The Interruption is The Tramp, but with a twist, because they both have "The" in their name. That is some seriously messed up and flawed logic.

It's not based solely on name. Have you even seen MechaGodzilla's debut movie? MechaGodzilla is masquerading as Godzilla for the first several scenes. They're both saurian with spines that fire beams. And if that doesn't count, then how is Battra like Mothra? All they really have in common is looking like moths, after all!

If Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are nothing alike, neither are Mothra and Battra.

Except that I don't agree with that logic at all, because its face palm worthy.

So you'd rather I lied and contradicted myself for the sake of looking smart?

It's mostly inspired by Yamata-no-Orochi which is an eight headed snake, not a dragon. The heads are also reminiscent of various demons from the Japanese folklore, which again, are not dragons.

Well that is an entirely different story. Thanks for the background information.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that MechaGodzilla is Godzilla, like what JVM is saying. He's saying that MechaGodzilla is just Godzilla, but just a robot, which is total and complete bullshit

Not in reality of course, but in the context of the argument, yes.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Have you even seen MechaGodzilla's debut movie? MechaGodzilla is masquerading as Godzilla for the first several scenes. They're both saurian with spines that fire beams.

...And? That's just as insignificant as the whole name thing. Just because MechaGodzilla had a fake skin over him over him for a few scenes does not mean that MechaGodzilla is Godzilla. The two are still vastly different monsters. Trying looking beyond their appearance and names.

And if that doesn't count, then how is Battra like Mothra? All they really have in common is looking like moths, after all!

No. Battra is Mothra, because his concept is exactly the same as Mothra. I thought that was already established back in my earlier posts.

If Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are nothing alike, neither are Mothra and Battra.

Except that Godzilla's concept is vastly different from MechaGodzilla's concept, but Battra's concept is the same as Mothra's.

So you'd rather I lied and contradicted myself for the sake of looking smart?

I'd rather you come up with some logic that actually makes sense.

[JVM]

My logic makes perfect sense, it's just stupid. We established that!

We might as well end the general discussion because we're talking about two different things. You seem to be referring to background/storyline when you refer to the term 'concept' whereas when I refer to 'concept' my idea is the bare-bones that the character spawned from. At his bare bones Battra is an evil Mothra, and at his bare bones MechaGodzilla is a robot Godzilla. But that's not what you're talking about.

You should explain exactly what Battra's concept as far as you believe is though. Would make things easier.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

My logic makes perfect sense, it's just stupid. We established that!

This argument says otherwise.

at his bare bones MechaGodzilla is a robot Godzilla.

He really isn't, since Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are always at opposite ends of one another, and MechaGodzilla is always being controlled (whereas Godzilla is a free to do whatever he pleases), and MechaGodzilla was never a symbol of nuclear terror like Godzilla was. They both stand for different things.

You should explain exactly what Battra's concept as far as you believe is though. Would make things easier.

Ya wanna make statements like that, I suggest providing proof.

I did. Multiple times.

Battra is just a dark version of Mothra...and that's all we learn about him. The character is hardly explored in the film, and is only there to give Mothra something to fight. The design is...okay, but not the best I've seen. Overall, its just a forgettable character in a terrible film.

Battra is Mothra, only darker. That's not new. Hell, even if it were new, that's doesn't stop Battra from being a complete waste.

What is it with this topic and people not reading (or remembering) what I originally said?

[JVM]

He really isn't, since Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are always at opposite ends of one another, and MechaGodzilla is always being controlled (whereas Godzilla is a free to do whatever he pleases), and MechaGodzilla was never a symbol of nuclear terror like Godzilla was. They both stand for different things.

Being under control isn't part of the bare bones, and nor is being a symbol of nuclear terror.

At bare bones, Godzilla is a giant nuclear dinosaur. Nothing more.

And if that's really all your concept of Battra is, then I'm correct. Battra is evil Mothra, MechaGodzilla is robot Godzilla.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Being under control isn't part of the bare bones, and nor is being a symbol of nuclear terror.

I'm talking about concept here, not bare bones.

At bare bones, Godzilla is a giant nuclear dinosaur. Nothing more.

And at bare bones, MechaGodzilla is a robot. Robot =/= Giant Nuclear Dinosaur. Therefore, at bare bones, MechaGodzilla =/= Godzilla.

Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

And if that's really all your concept of Battra is, then I'm correct. Battra is evil Mothra, MechaGodzilla is robot Godzilla.

What are you talking about? You're correct about what?

As far as I can tell, you haven't debunked anything I've said: The concept of Godzilla is different from the concept of MechaGodzilla, but the concept of Battra is the same as the concept of Mothra.

[KaneLocke]

Ah, a GxG argument. To think I didn't miss it in his absence.

Lemme show you how his argument works, GxG. Godzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. Mechagodzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. At the conceptual level, both are unstoppable walking weapons. The only difference is Godzilla is a metaphorical weapon.

Battra is not conceptually the same as Mothra. Mothra protects the people AND the planet, Battra protects only the planet.

But I fail to see the point in arguing it. Few of the Heisei monsters actually received actual CHARACTERIZATION. Battra, Mothra, Rodan, Destroyah... All of them were shallow and skin deep. They sucked on a character level.

See, I was never arguing the character. I took 'concept' as a reference to the aesthetic design of the creature.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Lemme show you how his argument works, GxG. Godzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. Mechagodzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. At the conceptual level, both are unstoppable walking weapons. The only difference is Godzilla is a metaphorical weapon.

Except that I disagree with that, because both Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are more than just walking engines of total destruction. They each have their own individuality, which differentiates them from one another. The main one, for me anyway, is that MechaGodzilla is a tool, whereas Godzilla is free to do whatever he wants.

Battra is not conceptually the same as Mothra. Mothra protects the people AND the planet, Battra protects only the planet.

They're both protecting something very similar on a grand scale, and that's what I'm looking at.

But I fail to see the point in arguing it. Few of the Heisei monsters actually received actual CHARACTERIZATION. Battra, Mothra, Rodan, Destroyah... All of them were shallow and skin deep. They sucked on a character level.

One of the many reasons why I don't like the Heisei series.

[Gyaos]

MechaGodzilla is a tool

Kiryu is a sentinent being bound by human control. Without human control, hes basically Godzilla with a metal exterior. Hes has the skeleton of a deceased Godzilla and effort was obviously put into making him look like the organic counterpart. Heisei MG is the same principal. He was created in Godzilla's image and with a similar purpose to be a weapon of destruction except to be used against Kaiju rather than humans. At the very most, they have a similar concept, not two completely unrelated concepts as you say.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

MechaGodzilla is a tool

Kiryu is a sentinent being bound by human control. Without human control, hes basically Godzilla with a metal exterior. Hes has the skeleton of a deceased Godzilla and effort was obviously put into making him look like the organic counterpart. Heisei MG is the same principal. He was created in Godzilla's image and with a similar purpose to be a weapon of destruction except to be used against Kaiju rather than humans. At the very most, they have a similar concept, not two completely unrelated concepts as you say.

...Okay, now you're just nitpicking my words.

Kiryu is still a tool of the JSDF. The same with Heisei MechaGodzilla, and Showa MechaGodzilla. All three are used by the people who created them to do what they please. For Showa MG, its destroy all of humanity. For Heisei MG and Kiryu, its defend the earth from kaiju. Without their operators, they wouldn't do anything. I'm not looking at how their designs are similar to Godzilla, but how MechaGodzilla is used.

[TheDarkone]

I have an odd feeling that if the two weren't related or similar then "mechagodzilla" would be a poor name choice :/

Anyway, I feel battra was cool and all but not nearly as impacting as other monsters. When i think of him i think of a movie i saw wayback when i was a kid or w.e

[Gyaos]

...Okay, now you're just nitpicking my words.

Kiryu is still a tool of the JSDF. The same with Heisei MechaGodzilla, and Showa MechaGodzilla. All three are used by the people who created them to do what they please. For Showa MG, its destroy all of humanity.For Heisei MG and Kiryu, its defend the earth from kaiju. Without their operators, they wouldn't do anything. I'm not looking at how their designs are similar to Godzilla, but how MechaGodzilla is used.

No. Kiryu can go against his operators while acting independently and has done so twice. Mechagodzilla is used in the same way as Godzilla except in a more belevolent purpose.

Godzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks and destroys humanity along with the occasional monster.

Mechagodzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks Godzilla and the occasional monster.

Yeah, ultimatly they're diffrent but overall their purpose and concept is the same

[KaneLocke]

Except that I disagree with that, because both Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are more than just walking engines of total destruction. They each have their own individuality, which differentiates them from one another. The main one, for me anyway, is that MechaGodzilla is a tool, whereas Godzilla is free to do whatever he wants.

So, first of all, your defintions are contradicting themselves. You're being overly specific here, for no other purpose than being right, whereas below, you're being overly general... so you can be right.

But the fact is, they're identical. They're both weapons of mass destruction. Their 'purpose' is irrelevent; on a conceptual level, they are truly no different. Massive, incredibly dangerous weapons. You're the one nitpicking details here.

They're both protecting something very similar on a grand scale, and that's what I'm looking at.

In that case, with such a general 'definition', NO monsters are truly different. On a grand scale, most monsters exist for the same purpose, and by your definition, are bad concepts then.

Before you continue this argument, pick a stance: look at the general idea of the monsters (IE Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla concepts) or the specific idea (Mothra Vs. Battra concepts).

For the record, I find Mechagodzilla is nothing like Godzilla. It is the details that make them different. You're using two different arguments for the same thing. That's why everyone is, for lack of a better term, ganging up on you. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in your rationalizations.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

No. Kiryu can go against his operators while acting independently and has done so twice

Again, you're nitpicking my words.

Godzilla: Weapon created by humans.

...No they didn't. They woke him up, but they didn't create him.

Godzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks and destroys humanity along with the occasional monster.

Mechagodzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks Godzilla and the occasional monster.

Yeah, ultimatly they're diffrent but overall their purpose and concept is the same

How many times do have to say this?

In concept, MechaGodzilla and Godzilla are vastly different. MechaGodzilla is a robot, created by humans/aliens and is then used by those same people for their own purposes. Last I checked, Godzilla isn't a robot, nor is he used by someone else for their own purpose.

As for purpose, Godzilla does whatever he wants. MechaGodzilla, on the other hand, is to defend or attack humanity (depending on the era).

[Gyaos]

...No they didn't. They woke him up, but they didn't create him.

You fail. Heisei Godzilla was CREATED by humans via nuclear testing.

Last I checked, Godzilla isn't a robot, nor is he used by someone else for their own purpose.

Then clearly you need to rewatch Destroy all Monsters, Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla and Godzilla vs Monster Zero. In all those examples I listed, Godzilla was under mind control and was being used for another party's purpose. Again I bring up Kiryu. Hes is the original Godzilla ressurected and augmented via technology and put under HUMAN CONTROL to do their bidding. So in a sense, yes, Godzilla (54) is a robot.

MechaGodzilla, on the other hand, is to defend or attack humanity (depending on the era).

Once again, I bring up Kiryu. He can do whatever he pleases when not under restraint.

[JVM]

Well the created by weapons aspect wasn't so much my point as much as that every incarnation of MechaGodzilla is a robot that is based in design on Godzilla, and thus is, visually speaking, a robot Godzilla.

I really doubt Tomoyuki Tanka's idea for the 1974 Godzilla film was just, "Godzilla fights a giant robot!"

[edgaguirus]

Battra is meant to be the yin to Mothra's yang. It creates the old story of opposing forces that happen to be similar and/or related, and sets up the plot twist of cooperation in the end.

Now can we get away from Godzilla and MG, and focus on Battra.