Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

[JAGzilla]

Yeah, DAM and Final Wars are much worse films. The female leads and Malness alone put this over those two. The photography with all the nature is also a higlight. Wish Tsuchiya could have played the villain, his performance would have been great to see.

Hey, so I'm that guy who thinks Final Wars was the best film in the Millenium Era, so while I agree that DAM wasn't spectaclar (thought that final battle almost made all of the rather boring plot worth sitting through), I just love Final Wars because it's fun. Objectively, its very flawed and not nearly the best film of the Millenium series, but whenever I'm in the mood to just sit down and have fun with a movie, Final Wars immediately comes to my mind. I'd say, objectively, GMK is the best Millenium film. But I just love watching Final Wars more because of sheer goofy entertainment value. It's like a ridiculous 70's Godzilla film with vastly updated special effects.

Oh yeah, and Final Wars has Don Frye and Kazuki Kitamura. So, that immediately makes it better than all the other Millenium films.

My knee-jerk reaction is to sneer because nobody should like a movie I don't like, buuut I'm the same way with Megaguirus. Terrible movie, but really great dumb fun. Godzilla was in full over the top badass mode, and the Dimension Tide is just hysterical.

And Don Frye was as bad as everything else in GFW, but had the decency to be entertaining about it.

[eabaker]

Yeah, DAM and Final Wars are much worse films. The female leads and Malness alone put this over those two. The photography with all the nature is also a higlight. Wish Tsuchiya could have played the villain, his performance would have been great to see.

Hey, so I'm that guy who thinks Final Wars was the best film in the Millenium Era, so while I agree that DAM wasn't spectaclar (thought that final battle almost made all of the rather boring plot worth sitting through), I just love Final Wars because it's fun. Objectively, its very flawed and not nearly the best film of the Millenium series, but whenever I'm in the mood to just sit down and have fun with a movie, Final Wars immediately comes to my mind. I'd say, objectively, GMK is the best Millenium film. But I just love watching Final Wars more because of sheer goofy entertainment value. It's like a ridiculous 70's Godzilla film with vastly updated special effects.

Oh yeah, and Final Wars has Don Frye and Kazuki Kitamura. So, that immediately makes it better than all the other Millenium films.

My knee-jerk reaction is to sneer because nobody should like a movie I don't like, buuut I'm the same way with Megaguirus. Terrible movie, but really great dumb fun. Godzilla was in full over the top badass mode, and the Dimension Tide is just hysterical.

And Don Frye was as bad as everything else in GFW, but had the decency to be entertaining about it.

I don't find him at all entertaining. "Obnoxious" is the word I'd choose.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

Rewatched the Japanese cut after a few years, and everything just clicked for me this time. I'd even say it has a permanent spot among my favorites.

Completely forgot Takashi Shimura was in this, it was a pleasure seeing him in another Godzilla film. The brother and sister duo were nice protagonists, I was invested in them and the Princess's story. The little bits of dialoge showing the assassin's history with the Princess in the hotel scene were neat, supposedly he also killed her father with that fancy knife.
I loved seeing the story pick up after MvG, but I think it takes place in the following year since the meteorologists at the beginning state it is January. I wish Naoko had a bigger presence in the latter half of the film, since she supposedly understood the Princess, and was the first protagonist introduced. Detective Shindo's reluctance in taking the job to protect the Princess showed a nice bit of detail about him, and I guess it came full circle since she ends up thanking him for saving her three times. The sibling duo had a believable chemistry, the scene where they bicker at their house got a decent laugh out of me.

Onto the fantastical elements, the idea that aliens from Venus took refugee on Earth 5,000 years ago perfectly lets us slide into the ideas of aliens in the following film. "Call to Happiness" is an underrated Mothra song, and I was thrilled to hear "Holy Springs" for a bit again.
King Ghidorah's name isn't revealed till the 50-minute mark, and it's just chilling. His famous entrance is as stunning as ever, and he is the definite KG to me. His theme blasting while we hear that eerie bell-like roar is magnificent. The story with Mothra and King Ghidorah are already great - incorporating Rodan & Godzilla are icing on an already well made cake. I love how the team characterized Godzilla and Rodan, the big G acts like me getting no sleep after a long day, while Rodan seems like that punk that runs a red light. The fight between them was memorable, the puppet shots didn't bother me, I also loved how once Godzilla gets his chance he just pummels Rodan.

The famous "monster ted talk" scene was shorter than I remember, maybe that's due to the mandela effect. The "oh Godzilla what terrible language" line wasn't present at all. I do love how Godzilla and Rodan are reluctant to help Mothra, it casts them as more than just big animals - in fact the Showa era always did great with these characters. The climatic fight is incredible, it's shot in a beautiful way; one part that stood out was Rodan leading KG on an aerial chase only to turn back and ram into him. I wonder why Godzilla never used his atomic breath, and with Mothra maybe lengthening the scene where she's getting pummeled by KG would give more time to show how deadly he is. She gets hit by gravity beams about twice within ten seconds before Godzilla shows up, a little too quick for a change of heart in my opinion. The duel between Detective Shindo and the assassin was a little off considering they both could've shot each other but kept missing.... even when Shindo was helping the Princess up while the shot shows he had a perfect shot. Nonetheless, the ending was satisfying and a wild ride.

A 8/10, a fun, well made film considering it was quickly made in place of a Kurosawa film. As I said it's earned place among my favorites, KOTM's gonna have a challenge having a human element as good as this film.

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

I rewatched this just now and just like G14 I came away with a better opinion on it. It has some silly stuff on it but it's mostly pretty well realized. Shame the effects footage just wasn't up to par with the drama footage and it jumps around too much. There are some good moments nobody talks about, like everybody inside and out of a cafe rushing to watch the TV, or the usage of extreme close ups. Still the best Ghidorah, love how it's presence just permeates through everything and creates tension.

[Gojirawars 03]

"Best Ghidorah," people say.

Why, exactly? Showa Ghidorah is easily the most overrated variant IMO. The only film where he feels like a threat is in GTTHM, and even then he's just a plot device with no personality that fianlly shows up in the final act just to give Godzilla and Rodan motivation to stop fighting each other. He puts up a good fight, and the final battle feels rewarding, but after this film, he drops off hard. In all the movies after this one, he's a total joke.

He gets flattened in seconds by Godzilla on Planet X (with Rodan not even really needing to be there. He barely contributed anything other than a few boulders dropped from the air). Then he's put under mind control and, when eventually freed, he gets taken down again with not much issue. Then he shows up again in Gigan, and gets put under mind control again. He gets a decent fight in against Godzilla this time, but to be honest, Gigan was doing most of the work cutting Godzilla to pieces. Once again, Ghidorah is broken from mind control, and the second Gigan is out of the way, Ghidorah gets decimated again.

At long last, we reach DAM, and oh, god. He shows up out of nowhere in the final act because the monsters needed a big bad guy to fight at the end, and the still had the suit, so why not. And thus, we get to watch the supposed "destroyed of worlds" get completely curbstomped. Then, of course, once hes on the ground with two heads already out of commission, who gets the final headshot to win the day?

skreeonking.

Minya.

Yeah, the harbinger of death and destroyer of galaxies defeated by one of Minya's flimsy little smoke rings.

It's honestly just sad to watch Ghidorah's drastic fall from grace. When he first starts out, he may be a little goofy, but hes still a legitimate threat. By the end of the Showa timeline, though, he's just a victim of constant abuse in every film he shows up in.

[eabaker]

he's just a plot device with no personality that fianlly shows up in the final act

I know this isn't the point of your post, but he shows up during the second act, not the third.

[szmigiel]

"Best Ghidorah," people say.

This belongs more in the Monster Discussion Thread http://www.tohokingdom.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1701&start=280
But here we go

Why, exactly? Showa Ghidorah is easily the most overrated variant IMO. The only film where he feels like a threat is in GTTHM, and even then he's just a plot device with no personality that fianlly shows up in the final act just to give Godzilla and Rodan motivation to stop fighting each other. He puts up a good fight, and the final battle feels rewarding, but after this film, he drops off hard. In all the movies after this one, he's a total joke.

His Reputation has a lot to do with this film and it is the one of the main reasons he is a top draw for Toho. He also doesn't appear out of nowhere for the final act, there is a nice build up with the meteor and his rampage and destruction before facing off against the other kaiju.

He gets flattened in seconds by Godzilla on Planet X (with Rodan not even really needing to be there. He barely contributed anything other than a few boulders dropped from the air). Then he's put under mind control and, when eventually freed, he gets taken down again with not much issue. Then he shows up again in Gigan, and gets put under mind control again. He gets a decent fight in against Godzilla this time, but to be honest, Gigan was doing most of the work cutting Godzilla to pieces. Once again, Ghidorah is broken from mind control, and the second Gigan is out of the way, Ghidorah gets decimated again.

Yes a short battle on Planet X because it was just a show put on by the X-Seijins for the astronauts. Why risk their plans by having the kaiju fight a long drawn out battle? As far as the fight back on Earth, yes the audience doesn't get to see the battle underwater, but that doesn't mean it wasn't much of an issue. The reason he is in Godzila Vs Gigan is mainly due to put his name power getting people interested in seeing the film, and so they can use as much stock footage as possible.

At long last, we reach DAM, and oh, god. He shows up out of nowhere in the final act because the monsters needed a big bad guy to fight at the end, and the still had the suit, so why not. And thus, we get to watch the supposed "destroyed of worlds" get completely curbstomped. Then, of course, once hes on the ground with two heads already out of commission, who gets the final headshot to win the day?

skreeonking.

Minya.

Yeah, the harbinger of death and destroyer of galaxies defeated by one of Minya's flimsy little smoke rings.

This is King Ghidorah 3rd appearance, not 4th. And he was used nicely as he was the only kaiju that could be used as an opponent for a battle royal. If the Godzilla series ended here, it would have been a great send off. As for the smoke ring, you honestly think that was what "defeated" King Ghidorah? If it wasn't for the smoke ring he would have gotten up and finished off all the other kaiju?

It's honestly just sad to watch Ghidorah's drastic fall from grace. When he first starts out, he may be a little goofy, but hes still a legitimate threat. By the end of the Showa timeline, though, he's just a victim of constant abuse in every film he shows up in.

We can apply your line of arguments to the rest of his appearances.

Heisei King Ghidorah: He is made up of three Furbie rejects, gets a head blown off by Godzilla and flees. Then has to comeback as a mecha/cyborg from the future just to fight Godzilla to a draw.

Grand King Ghidorah: Is a paedophile kid stealer that gets defeated by Mothra.

GMK: Wakes up early to fight Godzilla like he is half asleep, and then when he gets fully powered up he gets his ass kicked even faster.

G:KOTM: Flees from his first fight with Godzilla, gets his head ripped off in the second fight and is only saved when the Oxygen Destroyer only works on Godzilla and not him. In the final rematch gets in a few good hits, but is then utterly obliterated by Godzilla.

How are any of these better than the Showa?

[Zarm]

Precisely. King Ghidorah is an entirely overrated bad guy; all talk and rep, no actual payoff (except for generally being a damage sponge that can absorb a lot of punishment... and since 2004, having a cheap instant-win vampire bite.)

[miguelnuva]

King Ghidorah suffers from what a lot of fictional people suffer from. People remember the loss but not what caused the loss.

Mothra beat Godzilla and it still took her, Godzilla and Rodan and the three only won because Rodan could think on his feet.

Ghidorah got screwed out a victory in MZ because Toho decided that the way Kong won in 62 means defeat in 65.

DAM once again, he took anywhere from 3-6 months perpicating with Godzilla, Gorosaurs and Angurius just being the most cqc.

I won't mention Gigan because Godzilla buried everyone in the 70's.

At the end of the day Godzilla never took a fight to Ghidorah one on one and when any monster did Ghidorah Came out on top.

[Zarm]

Ghidorah never came out on top, that I can recall; except in 1 out of 3 fights with Zone Fighter. He took a lot of effort to put down, but he never dished out serious damage in return (unless you take Ebirah as indirect evidence). Not saying that it didn't take a lot of kaiju to put him down... but it takes a lot of punches to knock down a brick wall, too. It doesn't make the wall actually threatening.

[LSD Jellyfish]

One thing I noticed on my most recent viewing, is that it’s implied/shown Ghidorah would presumably beat all the monsters one on one.

Ghidorah blasts the poop out of Mothra (no surprise there).
Ghidorah seriously pushes back Godzilla, tosses him against that bridge (for early showa era this is a big deal).
Ghidorah pretty much instantly gets up from Rodman’s midair swoop and proceeds to punish Rodan hard.

I’m not interested in getting into a debate of how strong Ghidorah is. However, from the context of the film, it seems like they did want to show that Ghidorah could handle all three individual kaiju easily. It ties into the actual plot of the film(which is not entirely Ghidorah centric), which is the kaiju forgiving each other (Mothra forgiving Godzilla for killing the sibling, and Rodan and Godzilla putting aside their differences). I’ve gained more respect because I see Ghidorah less as an original monster meant to have personality, and rather something that was craftily created in order to stand against some of the most famous Japanese monsters and counter them each.

Ghidorah has parallels to:
Mothra: For starting out in an “egg”, in the form of the meteor, having a “shoujibin” in the Venusian herald, and “fantasy vs sci-fi”.. If you think about the larva, and it originally having a sibling, Ghidorah also counters Mothra in being a “team player”, in that it intrinsically has three heads.
Rodan: for flight and speed
Godzilla: for strength and his beam attacks

The issue is, Ghidorah outside the context of this specific film really falls apart and just becomes a “big scary dragon.”

Also I have a lot to say about the Champion Cut I saw on Saturday, but I like this conversation so let me know when anyone wants to move on.

[daveblackeye15]

Yeah after Three Headed Monster Ghidorah gets mind controlled all the time and seems to become 'a bit stronger than Godzilla' in the Showa movies. Hence why I love Grand King Ghidorah, MV King Ghidorah and even GMK Ghidorah so much...they all are either in charge as the big bad and/or very much under their own control.

[Rody]

^^I like that analysis, LSD Jellyfish. On the subject of how strong Ghidorah is, I think it's valuable to compare his rampage to those of the other three monsters from previous films. Godzilla's original attack on Tokyo seemed to last pretty much the whole night. Rodan's assault on Fukuoka probably lasts a while too. Mothra's attack on Rolisca is probably the fastest of the three, while still causing considerable damage.
Ghidorah's attack on the countryside, however, goes VERY quickly - as though the full destruction of the towns and cities literally happened in mere minutes. Ghidorah, as already mentioned, has all of the advantages of the Earth monsters; so while no single trait of his may be obviously superior, of the four monsters in the film Ghidorah is likely the most efficiently destructive of them all.
If we go with the analogy of Ghidorah as a bully, too, it makes sense that the three Earth monsters could drive Ghidorah away somewhat easily. Bullies are cowards, and as strong as Ghidorah is, he might not be used to the type of organized resistance which Godzilla, Rodan, and Mothra display.
Ultimately, I'd agree that Ghidorah is more of a symbol than a real character; but then, that's what Ishiro Honda preferred the monsters to be, so it seems fair that newcomer Ghidorah would be realized this way, especially when Godzilla, etc were starting to evolve.

[miguelnuva]

Ghidorah is a really powerful monster but at the same time he's never been challange up to that point. He's like Mike Tyson, Tyson had great knockout power but when that power failed him he wasn't a great boxer.

I'd bet my house Ghidorah never encountered something as stubborn as Godzilla and Rodan before which is why he's power doesn't seem as impressive as what people in the films make him out to be.

[JAGzilla]

While he may not be outstanding against other powerful monsters, Ghidorah is pretty well unmatched in terms of his ability to efficiently dole out death and destruction. He has all the power of Rodan's wings and Godzilla's ray combined, plus he can spam that ray three times faster than Godzilla.

[LSD Jellyfish]

On the subject of how strong Ghidorah is, I think it's valuable to compare his rampage to those of the other three monsters from previous films. Godzilla's original attack on Tokyo seemed to last pretty much the whole night. Rodan's assault on Fukuoka probably lasts a while too. Mothra's attack on Rolisca is probably the fastest of the three, while still causing considerable damage. Ghidorah's attack on the countryside, however, goes VERY quickly - as though the full destruction of the towns and cities literally happened in mere minutes.

It's worth noting that Ghidorah starts out in Kurobe, in Toyama prefecture, and travels to Tokyo rather quickly, and then to Shizuoka for the climax. It's hard to explain the movement to people that don't live in Japan, but it's decently quick and erratic. The distance that Godzilla and Rodan spend the film traveling (Yokohama to the Fuji area) is relatively small compared to Ghidorah's flight path.

I'm thinking in the future, creating maps of events in each Godzilla movie, to make things make more sense in context, of where cities are and monsters traveling movements. Since I moved to Japan, I've realized how the locations of monsters in the films make logical sense and often play into the films narratives. It's something that prior that was easy to ignore. If possible I'd like to include things like timeframes, and landmarks or important areas destroyed.

[eabaker]

I'm thinking in the future, creating maps of events in each Godzilla movie, to make things make more sense in context, of where cities are and monsters traveling movements. Since I moved to Japan, I've realized how the locations of monsters in the films make logical sense and often play into the films narratives. It's something that prior that was easy to ignore. If possible I'd like to include things like timeframes, and landmarks or important areas destroyed.

That would be really interesting. Biollante is the only entry I can think of where the movie actually gives us much detail about the geography.

[Rody]

I'm thinking in the future, creating maps of events in each Godzilla movie, to make things make more sense in context, of where cities are and monsters traveling movements. Since I moved to Japan, I've realized how the locations of monsters in the films make logical sense and often play into the films narratives. It's something that prior that was easy to ignore. If possible I'd like to include things like timeframes, and landmarks or important areas destroyed.

That would be really interesting. Biollante is the only entry I can think of where the movie actually gives us much detail about the geography.

I think that could be pretty valuable. The locations of the films are probably among the worst stereotyped aspects ("always Tokyo"), so having a better grounding in the geography of the stories would probably do the fandom a lot of good.

[Zarm]

On the subject of how strong Ghidorah is, I think it's valuable to compare his rampage to those of the other three monsters from previous films. Godzilla's original attack on Tokyo seemed to last pretty much the whole night. Rodan's assault on Fukuoka probably lasts a while too. Mothra's attack on Rolisca is probably the fastest of the three, while still causing considerable damage. Ghidorah's attack on the countryside, however, goes VERY quickly - as though the full destruction of the towns and cities literally happened in mere minutes.

It's worth noting that Ghidorah starts out in Kurobe, in Toyama prefecture, and travels to Tokyo rather quickly, and then to Shizuoka for the climax. It's hard to explain the movement to people that don't live in Japan, but it's decently quick and erratic. The distance that Godzilla and Rodan spend the film traveling (Yokohama to the Fuji area) is relatively small compared to Ghidorah's flight path.

I'm thinking in the future, creating maps of events in each Godzilla movie, to make things make more sense in context, of where cities are and monsters traveling movements. Since I moved to Japan, I've realized how the locations of monsters in the films make logical sense and often play into the films narratives. It's something that prior that was easy to ignore. If possible I'd like to include things like timeframes, and landmarks or important areas destroyed.

I've often thought this. I think the context of the areas threatened, the areas covered, and even the proximity the characters are in to the brewing kaiju battle, might give a whole different energy to the viewings.