DC Cinematic Universe

[eabaker]

Oscar-Worthy

Weird that you'd throw this insult into the midst of such an otherwise positive post...

[LSD Jellyfish]

I felt what Joker was going through. I understood what he was doing, obviously I don't agree with it, but purely from a cinematic point of view I understood him. You can only poke a lion so many times before that lion tears you up. The mental illness side of it was beautifully portrayed, and could've ended up atrocious if done incorrectly. I had sympathy for Arthur because every time he tried to get back up when life put him down, life would just wail on him until he stayed down permanently, which tons of us feel in real life. So when he finally decided he was done with life treating him a certain way, he fought back, he was free, he had no persona holding him back... He was just, The Joker.

Spoiler:

Ehhhhhh, ehhhhh.
My interpretation of the film is that the Joker just wanted attention and was jealous of a lot of things. Thomas Wayne says it, and it's parroted by the Joker towards the end when he states he has no real motive, and how building up to that he fantasizes about all sorts of things, and practices what will happen. I think while mental illness is a big point of the film, and many people have bad lives or whatever, I don't think it was "beautifully portrayed".

You never felt like Joaquin wasn't Joker, even when he wasn't technically "him" yet, his portrayal was FANTASTIC, Oscar-Worthy, Extreme, Perfect .. I can't praise him enough. The world within Gotham felt lived in, it felt like NYC and I'm especially happy that the film was mostly filmed in the Bronx. The film juggled some very interesting genres at once, from black humor to raw horror to genuine drama, all within one scene. The last 15 minutes felt like pure and utter perfection, hell, the whole film felt like perfection, but those last 15 minutes were the perfect scenario for a JOKER film.

Yeah, Joaquin Phoenix is one of the best actors. I thought he was good at having brief moments of sympathy and then lots of moments of genuine uncomfortableness. I'm not sure if it's perfect though. He's been better in better movies. As Terasawa alluded to in another thread, this is the type of film that while pretty good, is pretty good by superhero standards, and just seems amazing in a bubble. It owes so much to Taxi Driver and some other films, which is fine. I also disagree with the lived in aspect. While yeah we get to see a lot of gritty stuff, we don't really get a good idea of what else is going on or happening to people outside the Joker. I wish we saw more with the other protesters and people.

Spoiler:

We've always seen Thomas Wayne as a hero since it's always been from the point of view of Bruce. But how would someone on "our" level see the Waynes? Especially a Wayne family that picked itself up from the slums of Gotham? They'd be greedy, nasty, and corrupt, which is why Thomas Wayne worked with the Falcone family, the Maroni family etc. over the years. Thomas Wayne in real life very well could be a Trump type figure who'd look down upon the less fortunate. He very well could've had "illegitimate" situations. I loved how they flipped this whole idea on its head.

Spoiler:

Yeah, that's the most interesting part of the film to me. Giving a completely different perspective to Batman's villains and up bringing. It puts the entire Batman character in a completely different loop, when essentially the criminals he beats up in a lot of cases are just poor mentally unstable people.

Added in 3 minutes 20 seconds:

Oscar-Worthy

Weird that you'd throw this insult into the midst of such an otherwise positive post...

He'll complain and say there's a bias against the film if it doesn't win.

[_JNavs_]

My interpretation of the film is that the Joker just wanted attention and was jealous of a lot of things. Thomas Wayne says it, and it's parroted by the Joker towards the end when he states he has no real motive, and how building up to that he fantasizes about all sorts of things, and practices what will happen. I think while mental illness is a big point of the film, and many people have bad lives or whatever, I don't think it was "beautifully portrayed".

Yeah I mean I didn't really get the sense that he was jealous, but he was certainly feeling a type of way when he found out about certain connections that could've helped him and his mother out of their living conditions. I say beautifully portrayed only because it's like, the main focus of the film. I know tons of films use it as the main idea, but rarely do I feel like I'm walking in the shoes of the character I'm watching. The film has this way about it that makes it feel like we're all in his head seeing as he sees.

Yeah, Joaquin Phoenix is one of the best actors. I thought he was good at having brief moments of sympathy and then lots of moments of genuine uncomfortableness. I'm not sure if it's perfect though. He's been better in better movies. As Terasawa alluded to in another thread, this is the type of film that while pretty good, is pretty good by superhero standards, and just seems amazing in a bubble. It owes so much to Taxi Driver and some other films, which is fine. I also disagree with the lived in aspect. While yeah we get to see a lot of gritty stuff, we don't really get a good idea of what else is going on or happening to people outside the Joker. I wish we saw more with the other protesters and people.

Yeah Joaquin is really next level, I'm glad we finally have another phenomenal actor in the role of The Joker. It's almost as if the role of the Joker is now dedicated only to the upper echelon of actors, which makes it something of a prestige role to look up to for aspiring actors. It has been said by many that the film is the love child of both Taxi Driver and King of Comedy (both coincidentally starring De'Niro) and I certainly see the inspirations, and homages. But this really is it's own thing and that's what I love about it, no other super film has even dared test these kinds of waters before. I'd love to see more going forward.

Plus I hear Joaquin just recently said him and Todd Phillips are open to seeing where Joker goes next, and I know some might say there's no need for a sequel, which I agree with, but I'd love to see where this character goes going forward.

Yeah, that's the most interesting part of the film to me. Giving a completely different perspective to Batman's villains and up bringing. It puts the entire Batman character in a completely different loop, when essentially the criminals he beats up in a lot of cases are just poor mentally unstable people.

Completely agree, it flips the tables on the "good guys", by showing "Good" is only a matter of perspective. Like you said, Batman is essentially just beating up a bunch of mentally unstable individuals.

Added in 2 minutes 32 seconds:

Oscar-Worthy

Weird that you'd throw this insult into the midst of such an otherwise positive post...

He'll complain and say there's a bias against the film if it doesn't win.

Lol.

It really should though.. It has all the makings of pure cinematic gold.

Even though we may see the Oscars in a negative light, it's the only way the vast majority will understand whether something is that good or not lol.

Added in 5 minutes 43 seconds:
Are we allowed to talk spoilers here? Or could I be able to make a dedicated Joker thread?

[godzilla98rules]

As Terasawa alluded to in another thread, this is the type of film that while pretty good, is pretty good by superhero standards, and just seems amazing in a bubble.

That's an odd thing to say considering this film in no way felt like a superhero film. You can take away all of the "Batman" titles (Joker, Wayne, Gotham, etc.) and it would still be the exact same film. But I do agree on the first two events that happened to Arthur has been done many times, but they are done so much for a reason. They give good and simple reasons for both why someone could "fall from grace," or looking into the realistic events that happen every day in large metropolitan cities.

But yes, this was an amazing film and I do hope Joaquin Phoenix at least wins an Oscar. Definitely one of the most compelling and in-character performances I've ever seen......

[LSD Jellyfish]

As Terasawa alluded to in another thread, this is the type of film that while pretty good, is pretty good by superhero standards, and just seems amazing in a bubble.

That's an odd thing to say considering this film in no way felt like a superhero film. You can take away all of the "Batman" titles (Joker, Wayne, Gotham, etc.) and it would still be the exact same film. But I do agree on the first two events that happened to Arthur has been done many times, but they are done so much for a reason. They give good and simple reasons for both why someone could "fall from grace," or looking into the realistic events that happen every day in large metropolitan cities.

But yes, this was an amazing film and I do hope Joaquin Phoenix at least wins an Oscar. Definitely one of the most compelling and in-character performances I've ever seen......

Too lazy to type out "movie based on a character from a comic book".

[Terasawa]

As Terasawa alluded to in another thread, this is the type of film that while pretty good, is pretty good by superhero standards, and just seems amazing in a bubble.

I did? I haven’t even seen it, lol.

[LSD Jellyfish]

As Terasawa alluded to in another thread, this is the type of film that while pretty good, is pretty good by superhero standards, and just seems amazing in a bubble.

I did? I haven’t even seen it, lol.

I was referencing this:

IMDb user ratings, especially for recent films. Joker is currently the 9th ranked movie on the site. I haven't seen it but I have the feeling that if I did I could name far more than eight better films. Of course this is nothing new. Remember when Star Trek Into Darkness was new and it was briefly higher than Gone with the Wind on the Top 250?

Okay, not exactly what you meant. But I meant that while it's a good movie, it's not some groundbreaking work of art, and it's popularity is really only in comparison into other films that are recent. Does that make sense?

[KManX89]

Not really touching on the movie's quality in any way, but as you may or may not have heard, Joker uses a song by Gary Glitter, a convicted pedophile. They're now being forced to pay him royalty. Yes, they're forced to pay a child molester by using his song.

Eh, it could be worse: they could have a pedophile actually star in the movie. *cough**THEPREDATOR*cough*

I guess it was aptly named then.

[Terasawa]

They’re not being forced, it’s the law. If they didn’t wanna pay a pedophile they shouldn’t have used the song. It’s as simple as that.

[_JNavs_]

Too bad it's a good song, people should know how to separate art from its creator.

[Terasawa]

Is your signature an actual quote from the movie?

[_JNavs_]

Is your signature an actual quote from the movie?

It's delivered much better than it looks I swear lol.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Is your signature an actual quote from the movie?

When I saw that in the film I burst out laughing. I actually thought the film is supposed to be satiruous and partially self aware of the “WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY” meme. As in, if you actually take what he’s saying seriously, you’re in a bad place.

IIRC, in the following moment he shoots the guy, so it’s not meant to be taken in a good context either.

While I do think the film shows enough to justify why the Joker feels the way he does in the film, and his actions are completely believable, I think it's important to note, the Joker himself had a lot of self autonomy that could have led to different outcomes. It also makes it abundantly clear that while sympathsizeable, Arthur is still the villain of the story.

Here's some examples:
-Arthur, a very suspicious looking man, is acting really strange with a child on a bus. The mother was not wrong for reprimanding him, and finding it odd. A lot of parents would do the same. It is not societies fault, or the fault of others that he is a creep.

Spoiler:

-When the Joker is attacked by the drunken business men on the subway, he just starts shooting them. That's fine, he was on the ground being kicked by them. You can argue he could've pulled it out first, and verbally warned them, but it was in the heat of the moment. Right after though, he explicitly chases the third guy, and goes after to shoot him. The guy was clearly running away, and shot in the back. Cold murder plain and simple.

-The way he avoids the detectives, and hides throughout the film also acknowledges that he does at the very least know what he is doing is wrong.

-While unfortunate, it's totally Arthur's fault that he had the gun in his clown suit, while performing, and that it fell out. It's not the fault of the man who sold, or tried to give Arthur the gun. It's not the children's hospital fault for firing, and subsequently the company for firing Arthur for bringing a GUN to a children's hospital.

-Yes Thomas Wayne is dick, I don't deny that and that's one of my favorite parts of the film. But in context, he was not wrong in hitting Arthur, or telling him off. Arthur came to his private property, and harassed his son, and attacked his butler. He then snuck into a place he was not allowed, and confronted Thomas Wayne. Wayne gave him the answers, just not the ones he wanted, and Arthur still was acting like a total creep. Arthur was very lucky that Thomas seemingly felt bad for him and instantly didn't get the cops.

-Yes, his mentally ill mother had been lying to him. That's no excuse to murder her in cold blood like that.

-While ultimately Randy (I think that was the name of the other guy who sold him the gun) tried to extort Arthur, originally his intentions were good at giving Arthur a way to defend himself. Arthur did not need to take the gun, he took and brought it with him of his own volition. And yes, while it was wrong for him to snitch, I don't think Randy actually thought or wanted any involvement with the subway murders. It's completely understandable why Randy ratted and put Arthur down.

-The Joker was harassed and made fun of by Robert DeNiro's character prior to the television stage. Arthur brought the gun with him to the studio. He knew that he was going to be made fun of. He essentially is doing this because yes he is jealous and wants attention.

[_JNavs_]

I think he even says "We live in a society"

It was pretty funny, same with

Spoiler:

The whole midget apartment scene in the third act

.

[Terasawa]

It seems to me that this movie is less about talking about mental illness and more about a psychopath who happens to be ill.

[eabaker]

It seems to me that this movie is less about talking about mental illness and more about a psychopath who happens to be ill.

I think it's both things. It's kind of a kaleidoscope of a movie, with a lot to there that different viewers might choose to focus on. Among other things, it does very specifically allude to Regan-era cuts in social services/mental health facilities. And there are moments that explicitly comment on the way that society views and treats the mentally ill. But in the end, it's also a movie with an unreliable narrator that to some degree invites you to find what you want in it.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I was editing this into a post but people responded more so hey:

While I do think the film shows enough to justify why the Joker feels the way he does in the film, and his actions are completely believable, I think it's important to note, the Joker himself had a lot of self autonomy that could have led to different outcomes. It also makes it abundantly clear that while sympathsizeable, Arthur is still the villain of the story.

Here's some examples:

Spoiler:

-Arthur, a very suspicious looking man, is acting really strange with a child on a bus. The mother was not wrong for reprimanding him, and finding it odd. A lot of parents would do the same. It is not societies fault, or the fault of others that he is a creep.

-When the Joker is attacked by the drunken business men on the subway, he just starts shooting them. That's fine, he was on the ground being kicked by them. You can argue he could've pulled it out first, and verbally warned them, but it was in the heat of the moment. Right after though, he explicitly chases the third guy, and goes after to shoot him. The guy was clearly running away, and shot in the back. Cold murder plain and simple.

-The way he avoids the detectives, and hides throughout the film also acknowledges that he does at the very least know what he is doing is wrong.

-While unfortunate, it's totally Arthur's fault that he had the gun in his clown suit, while performing, and that it fell out. It's not the fault of the man who sold, or tried to give Arthur the gun. It's not the children's hospital fault for firing, and subsequently the company for firing Arthur for bringing a GUN to a children's hospital.

-Yes Thomas Wayne is dick, I don't deny that and that's one of my favorite parts of the film. But in context, he was not wrong in hitting Arthur, or telling him off. Arthur came to his private property, and harassed his son, and attacked his butler. He then snuck into a place he was not allowed, and confronted Thomas Wayne. Wayne gave him the answers, just not the ones he wanted, and Arthur still was acting like a total creep. Arthur was very lucky that Thomas seemingly felt bad for him and instantly didn't get the cops.

-Yes, his mentally ill mother had been lying to him. That's no excuse to murder her in cold blood like that.

-While ultimately Randy (I think that was the name of the other guy who sold him the gun) tried to extort Arthur, originally his intentions were good at giving Arthur a way to defend himself. Arthur did not need to take the gun, he took and brought it with him of his own volition. And yes, while it was wrong for him to snitch, I don't think Randy actually thought or wanted any involvement with the subway murders. It's completely understandable why Randy ratted and put Arthur down.

-The Joker was harassed and made fun of by Robert DeNiro's character prior to the television stage. Arthur brought the gun with him to the studio. He knew that he was going to be made fun of. He essentially is doing this because yes he is jealous and wants attention.

I think it's both things. It's kind of a kaleidoscope of a movie, with a lot to there that different viewers might choose to focus on. Among other things, it does very specifically allude to Regan-era cuts in social services/mental health facilities. And there are moments that explicitly comment on the way that society views and treats the mentally ill. But in the end, it's also a movie with an unreliable narrator that to some degree invites you to find what you want in it.

For the reasons why I stated above, exactly. It sort of reminds me of Lolita, where reasons and some justification/set up is given. But ultimately you as the viewer/audience are bad if you actually side with them.

Added in 2 minutes 24 seconds:

It seems to me that this movie is less about talking about mental illness and more about a psychopath who happens to be ill.

Yeah. I don't buy that the film is about mental illness that much. As in the long post, a lot of the stuff shows that Arthur is self aware that what he is doing is bad. The only main mental illness part is that when one of his few social security nets, the therapist, that has most likely kept him slightly afloat for his life, has suddenly collapsed.

Added in 3 minutes 32 seconds:

I think he even says "We live in a society"

It was pretty funny, same with

Spoiler:

The whole midget apartment scene in the third act

.

Yeah the film has some really good dark comedy.

[KManX89]

Alas, Ryan from Screen Rant made a Joker Pitch Meeting vid (it was only a matter of time!):



But yeah, gotta love this whole "glorification of violence" spiel incels are spewing. Where was the outcry for the Saw movies glorifying torture and murder or Hannibal glorifying/encouraging cannibalism when that came out?

[Manuelito Canelito]

Welp, watched Joker just short of 30 minutes ago.

Joaquin Phoenix deserves an Oscar for his interpretation, he managed to make me feel both sad for and creeped out by Arthur.

Life was a total shit to him, but he stills ends up being a kinda creepy guy.

A lot of the twists in the movie managed to legit surprise, even if already knew the most big one

Spoiler:

The revelation that Arthur had totally hallucinated his relationship with his neighbour totally left me speechless

Spoiler:

I also didn't expect at all that they would show the death of Thomas and Martha

.

The soundtrack was really good, and so was the cinematography. The scenes were they use the scenario to represent Arthur's mental state were really cool tbh.

All in all, excellent movie, very easily the best of year, and one of my favourites overall.

I know it probably won't happen, but now I'm hook, bait and sinked into a sequel with this world's Batman

[miguelnuva]

Alas, Ryan from Screen Rant made a Joker Pitch Meeting vid (it was only a matter of time!):

watch?v=5raAm6ANIFg

But yeah, gotta love this whole "glorification of violence" spiel incels are spewing. Where was the outcry for the Saw movies glorifying torture and murder or Hannibal glorifying/encouraging cannibalism when that came out?

Saw and Hannibal wasn't release in a time where society was trying to make villians look cool or seem like the good guy. The Joker is a lot more popular than the two you mentioned and it's the same problem when people wanted a relationship like Joker and Harley because of Suicide squad and didn't understand Joker was highly abusive to her.