Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby szmigiel » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:50 am

Maritonic wrote:No, not really. I don't really gloss over the plot, I just take it at face value.

I have a hard time taking; songs learned from ancient plants that psychically cause kaiju to increase in power, at face value.

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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Maritonic » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 am

szmigiel wrote:
Maritonic wrote:No, not really. I don't really gloss over the plot, I just take it at face value.

I have a hard time taking; songs learned from ancient plants that psychically cause kaiju to increase in power, at face value.


That's fine. For me, personally, I think you have to take all Godzilla movies at face value. Giant radioactive dinosaur fighting another giant radioactive dinosaur over custody of a radioactive dinosaur egg, while a giant robot modeled after a giant radioactive dinosaur fights both of them? Me: "Well, alright then." I dunno. I get everything is taken to different degrees, and I'm in no way saying this movie is above reproach. These movies are what they are.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby szmigiel » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:08 pm

Maritonic wrote:That's fine. For me, personally, I think you have to take all Godzilla movies at face value. Giant radioactive dinosaur fighting another giant radioactive dinosaur over custody of a radioactive dinosaur egg, while a giant robot modeled after a giant radioactive dinosaur fights both of them? Me: "Well, alright then." I dunno. I get everything is taken to different degrees, and I'm in no way saying this movie is above reproach. These movies are what they are.

That's what I would call glossing over the plot, and there is nothing wrong with doing it. But there are plenty of Godzilla films, and other Kaiju films, that manage to take the subject matter a bit more seriously.

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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby eabaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:12 pm

PopInPicsPresents wrote:
Gojirawars 03 wrote:
Godzillian wrote:They def put themselves in a corner at the end of this movie with their plan to take down Godzilla lol Thank God for the Rodan ex Machina to bail them out.

Wouldn't call it Ex Machina since it's not like certain Showa movies when Godzilla just pulls a power out of nowhere.


It's exactly like that though. Rodan lands on Godzilla and with no explanation just gives him a power up. How is it different from Godzilla pulling powers out of his butt in the Showa movies? Rodan literally pulls a power out of his ass and saves Godzilla.


Literally pulls a power out of his ass? You must have seen a different cut of the movie... ;)

Anyway, it's different because the (fairly few) times that Godzilla "pulls a new power out of his butt" in the Showa movies, it's not related to any spiritual/mystical aspects of the movie's tone or narrative, and it's not creating a specific parallel to/rhyme with another aspect of the movie.

I can't believe I'm defending this movie, which I consider mostly pretty mediocre.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Maritonic » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:14 pm

szmigiel wrote:
Maritonic wrote:That's fine. For me, personally, I think you have to take all Godzilla movies at face value. Giant radioactive dinosaur fighting another giant radioactive dinosaur over custody of a radioactive dinosaur egg, while a giant robot modeled after a giant radioactive dinosaur fights both of them? Me: "Well, alright then." I dunno. I get everything is taken to different degrees, and I'm in no way saying this movie is above reproach. These movies are what they are.

That's what I would call glossing over the plot, and there is nothing wrong with doing it. But there are plenty of Godzilla films, and other Kaiju films, that manage to take the subject matter a bit more seriously.


I wouldn't really consider that glossing over the plot because I don't sit there and ignore aspects of it, or flaws with it, but semantics. And I definitely agree that there are kaiju films that take the subject far more serious than this particular film.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Zarm » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:00 pm

eabaker wrote:I can't believe I'm defending this movie, which I consider mostly pretty mediocre.


Really? I didn't realize I actually had an ally on this film... :)

I mean, I can kind of agree that it was a similar out-of-nowhere power, but I think it counts for something that it never occurred to me as such until it was pointed out today. When Godzilla became a magnet, there was a definite sense of "...Uh, what?" But in this film, I never questioned it... which I think says something about how organic and appropriate it felt to the narrative.

(of course, that's just a surface read of feelings and impressions- I think eabaker nails the 'why' a lot more).

So I do think it is, essentially, the same thing, in a 'Huh, isn't that funny? I never thought of it that way before' sense; categorically a similar maneuver as those Showa pulled. But in execution, I think it is different enough, successful and earned- in an emotional sense, if not in a rational one- enough, that it doesn't belong in the same category, nor open to the same criticisms.
Last edited by Zarm on Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby eabaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:11 pm

Zarm wrote:
eabaker wrote:I can't believe I'm defending this movie, which I consider mostly pretty mediocre.


Really? I didn't realize I actually had an ally on this film... :)


Yeah, I loved it back in the mid-90s, and there are still parts of it that I really enjoy - mostly involving the monsters, not so much the humans - but on the whole it doesn't hold up for me very well. The entire middle of the movie feels like a lot of wheel-spinning between monster fights.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Grievous » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:20 pm

szmigiel wrote:I think this movie is one you either need to gloss over the plot, make up a lot of headcannon, or just laugh at the absurdity of it all.

So...its The Last Jedi of the Godzilla Franchise?
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Maritonic » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:21 pm

I love how almost every thread on here has to degrade to a Star Wars or MCU chat.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Grievous » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:24 pm

Maritonic wrote:I love how almost every thread on here has to degrade to a Star Wars or MCU chat.

I'm sorry Maritonic...

They just reminded me of said film with their statement.

I'll try to do better in future.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Zarm » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:44 pm

Grievous wrote:
szmigiel wrote:I think this movie is one you either need to gloss over the plot, make up a lot of headcannon, or just laugh at the absurdity of it all.

So...its The Last Jedi of the Godzilla Franchise?


Noooo... I don't think either of us love it or hate it enough for it to be that; and eabaker and I definitely wouldn't be on the same page if that were the case... :)
Last edited by Zarm on Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby eabaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:01 pm

Zarm wrote:
Grievous wrote:
szmigiel wrote:I think this movie is one you either need to gloss over the plot, make up a lot of headcannon, or just laugh at the absurdity of it all.

So...its The Last Jedi of the Godzilla Franchise?


Noooo... I don't think either of us love it or hate it enough for it to be that; and eabaker and I definitely wouldn't be on the same page if that were the case... :)


Honestly, I don't know if it would be possible for another movie to put us so completely at odds as TLJ does. Certainly not one as generic as GvsMGII.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby szmigiel » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:02 pm

Grievous wrote:[So...its The Last Jedi of the Godzilla Franchise?

More like the Highlander 2 the Quickening of the Godzilla Franchise

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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby eabaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:07 pm

Hmmm.. Basically generic, bland entry with a few really impressive moments that is oddly embraced as a masterpiece by a portion of the fandom... It's the Last Crusade of the Godzilla franchise!
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Godzillian » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:38 pm

eabaker wrote:Hmmm.. Basically generic, bland entry with a few really impressive moments that is oddly embraced as a masterpiece by a portion of the fandom... It's the Last Crusade of the Godzilla franchise!

Couldn't have said it better my guy
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby Zarm » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:01 pm

eabaker wrote:Hmmm.. Basically generic, bland entry with a few really impressive moments that is oddly embraced as a masterpiece by a portion of the fandom... It's the Last Crusade of the Godzilla franchise!


Congratulations. You have found another movie. :mad:
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby eabaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:07 pm

Zarm wrote:
eabaker wrote:Hmmm.. Basically generic, bland entry with a few really impressive moments that is oddly embraced as a masterpiece by a portion of the fandom... It's the Last Crusade of the Godzilla franchise!


Congratulations. You have found another movie. :mad:


Naw, as with GvsMGII, my feelings about Last Crusade aren't strong enough to really work up any kind of emotion over. ;)
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby KaijuCanuck » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:40 pm

eabaker wrote:
Zarm wrote:
eabaker wrote:Hmmm.. Basically generic, bland entry with a few really impressive moments that is oddly embraced as a masterpiece by a portion of the fandom... It's the Last Crusade of the Godzilla franchise!


Congratulations. You have found another movie. :mad:


Naw, as with GvsMGII, my feelings about Last Crusade aren't strong enough to really work up any kind of emotion over. ;)


I’m not odd! I’m fashionably distinct!

For real though, I don’t think it’s a masterpiece, but I do think it’s pretty good. I genuinely like the human characters, at least for the first half (and then admittedly their character arcs kind of just disappear, but whatever) and I think there is a lot of characterization of the monsters. My absolute favourite aspect of the film is how Godzilla goes through kind of a character arc, at least in the way that he is perceived, from being this destructive threat to a real animal with real desires and emotions. There’s not many Godzilla films that do this so well. Maybe not any. There’s a kind of tragedy to Rodan, who unlike Godzilla has only just awoken and seems completely disoriented by the modern world, instinctually clinging to its parasite brother like some kind of anchor, and Little Godzilla is sweet and likeable as this helpless and innocent relic. And then you have Mechagodzilla, which out of the three incarnations is the most cold and lifeless. But in the context of the film that works brilliantly as a heartless, artificial juxtaposition to these kaiju that I see a lot of life in, incapable of understanding anything except it’s task just as the top G-Force brass are incapable of understanding the kaiju beyond the threat they pose. It’s just a soldier with orders. and in this film I think that’s cool and works thematically.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby G&G-Fan » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:26 pm

I love how this proves my point. All you are saying is opinions, nothing more, but you act so pretentious, as if every word you type is a fact. You like to paint the Showa movies as masterpieces and the Heisei movies as bad and shun anyone who doesn't agree with that notion. The moment I start saying flaws about Mothra vs. Godzilla you all go haywire and shout back "No... you!" (and I find it so funny that you guys didn't even respond to my criticism... it's almost as if it's TRUE). Again, harkening back to my friend that was kicked off for saying a flaw about a Showa film. I swear this place should be renamed "Showa Kingdom".

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I love Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II for a lot of reasons. The story is not sloppy at all, it's easily the most well-written of the Heisei series. It's been widely praised as being quite coherent and straightforward while still being effective by many (Monster Zero News, American Kaiju, etc.). The fights genuinely get me very excited and amped up all of the time no matter how many times I've watched it. It's literally the most entertaining film in my opinion. I also find the human story to be really engaging too, especially with BabyGodzilla, and the human characters are interesting. And as KaijuCanuck said, it does a great job giving the kaiju, especially Godzilla, personality and characterization. It's really one of the few Godzilla movies where when I watch it, I don't ever question my ranking of it. If anything rewatching it just reconfirms my love for it. It will always be my favorite. And tons of other people love it too on practically every other platform. Kaiju review sites often give it good ratings. Ed Godziszewski wrote for his review for Monster Zero News that, "Of all the films of the renewed series, Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla II represents Toho’s most technically and artistically successful effort. Although Omori had introduced some new ideas into the series, his scripts were becoming increasingly cliche and contrivance ridden to the point of negating whatever good may have existed elsewhere in his films. Wataru Mimura replaced Omori as writer and opted for more of a straight-forward action film, focusing the human drama mostly on advancing the monster story and avoiding pointless side plots. As a result, the film’s pacing is very good, progressing smoothly without any dull spots. With the aid of a more competent cast and better script than last time, Okawara delivers a more polished effort at directing the human drama. Combining Mimura’s script with some crisp editing and outstanding technical effects, Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla delivers the goods as a terrific action film and passable drama." He goes on to say, "The action sequences in this film are impeccable...excitingly staged, logical, and quite dramatic." Last I checked Godziszewski is a very good critic and a well-respected Godzilla historian. "The Official Godzilla Compendium" and "The Big Book of Japanese Giant Monster Movies Vol 2." also give it great reviews, the both stating that the film works in practically every category. GvMGII is a well made movie too, as is MvG.

About the whole "stakes" thing with the fights, that's just because there's a different number of them. Mothra vs. Godzilla has only two, Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II has four. The last two battles have stakes, just like the two battles at the end of MvG do. The first two fights in GvMGII are merely to entertain (which they succeed at in my opinion) and because they make logical sense considering the location of the monsters and their personal motivations. The Fire Rodan-Mechagodzilla fight puts Azusa and Baby's lives at risk, and the final battle between Godzilla and Mechagodzilla has stakes because it's very possible for Godzilla to die. I could criticize GvMG 74 for the first two battles not having any stakes also. A lot of the first fights in the Showa series don't have any stakes either. Kong's first fight with Godzilla? Godzilla and Rodan's fight in Ghidorah: TTHM? Godzilla's first fight with Hedorah? Godzilla's first fight with Titanosaurus? Don't have any stakes at all. Even the final fight in Invasion of Astro-Monster doesn't have any stakes, it's just them tussling around for a minute after finally regaining consciousness.

I love how you guys can't accept plant music giving monsters power or telepathy when you praise a film immensely with nonsensical Planet of the Ape ripoff villains that somehow gain intelligence through a human disguise, people being able to sing to monsters to wake them up or make them hatch, Godzilla randomly popping through buildings and gaining magnetic powers through contrived writing, and alien races looking a lot like animals from Earth even though that's mathematically impossible. That's bias. The levels of your suspension of disbelief just boggles me. Oh wait, you're level of suspension of disbelief is "I can accept all of the nonsense in Showa, saying it's imaginative, but anytime Heisei requires me to suspend my disbelief with a creative idea, nope, I'll just call it bad writing, even though it makes a hell of a lot more sense then the Showa stuff does!" You guys are worse then CinemaSins complaining about the teleprompter not being able to be fixed for Tony's presentation in Captain America: Civil War. You're the kind of people who would go "Superman can fly? That's ridiculous!", "Alien blood can melt through anything but it doesn't seep through it's skin? That's ridiculous!", and, "The force exists? That's ridiculous! What a stupid, half-baked idea!" Just because it's serious-toned film doesn't mean it has to be 100% realistic and can't allow any suspension of disbelief, it's still a Sci-Fi / Fantasy film. Alien and Aliens are some of the most serious movies you can get and nothing there is realistic at all. I can easily suspend my disbelief for this film since I'm very invested in the story and the monster scenes entertain me.
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Re: Talkback Thread #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (1993)

Postby eabaker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:37 pm

What's with all this "you guys" business? Pretty sure you were only really having an argument with one person.
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