Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:08 am

Giratina93 wrote:As for the metal stuff, it took several whacks from Gigan to make Godzilla's head bleed, and the buzzsaw cut through Angy's face, but didn't completely go through him. In contrast, just Armor Mothra flying by GKG lopped off his wing.


However, GKG's wing if a far-thinner structure; the fact that Gigan did not completely saw other kaiju in half doesn't mean that he did not penetrate to the thickness required to cut through the wing just as Armor Mothra did.

This is also incorrect; at 1:10:45, Gigan's first pass instantly bloodlets Godzilla with a deep shoulder wound. I happen to have a copy of vs. Gigan with me at work today. :) (His second-through-fourth passes are just tackles, ramming Godzilla head-first rather than making a pass with the buzz-saw active).


Giratina93 wrote:2. Gigan and Megalon have to fly up to fight GKG in melee to get past the barrier, which they can definitely do... but that still leaves either of them at the mercy of GKG,

They will have to get in from some angle- both being fliers, they have a lot of directional angles to work from. And if GKG is under combined assault, they are not exactly 'at his mercy.'

Giratina93 wrote:and we've seen how they deal with beams (Not very well), so the winged lightning and gravity bolts won't be in their favor... or if GKG just flies down and decides to come crashing down ontop of one of them.

When do we see them handling beams particularly poorly? Showa's ray is enough to knock Gigan down, sure; but I don't recall any disproportionate damage being done. I don't see why they'd be disproportionately affected. Likewise, if GKG comes crashing down... the weight disparity is not nearly as great (moreso for Gigan than Megalon), and since both have point-blank attacks that can slice into the King, that would not be to his advantage. In addition, Megalon's burrowing ability would both allow him to get out from under the guy... or to come up within the barrier without taking incoming fire.


Giratina93 wrote:3. the fact that GKG's barrier withstood said chest beam, which at the very least is a powerful kinetic attack, means Hedorah, Megalon, GMK or Dessy are not going to break through that barrier with their beams or ranged attacks. They have to get up close... and really, only hedorah can hold his own (and even then, the gravity bolts are damn hot in their own right.)

Yeah, they'd have to walk up to him before launching beam attacks. (Though Hedorah's sludge, being non-energy, may go through unaffected). Hedorah can do so fairly easily, or can fly in and transform. Megalon can burrow or fly in. I can't remember if Destroyah can go microscopic and then reform? But he could also just walk in.

Meanwhile- and guys, we really need to have this Hedorah conversation and get on the same page- but
A. Do we have any onscreen confirmation of the temperature of gravity bolts? and
B. So is Showa Godzilla's breath, but it did nothing. Simply being a hot ray is not, apparently, enough to dehydrate Hedorah. My own theory, with the electricity, is the ability to really get in deep and dehydrate the tissues, instead of just burning the outer layer? We know electricity has that effect. I'd be willing to bet a flamethrower does. But we've also seen that an atomic ray doesn't. So until we nail down what qualities make the difference, I find it hard to assert that any ray or beam attack automatically has that effect. (And I am further unconvinced that Ghidorah's *gravity* beams have either the heat or electrical properties necessary).

Giratina93 wrote:4. heisei's standard beam is average at best, if not slightly above what Showa Godzilla has.

No. It's at least five times as hot, and generally considered the most devastating of the bade Godzilla beams.


Giratina93 wrote:We don't know how good the metal used for MKG was, but it's certainly less durable than normal HKG. SMG wasn't damaged by a normal beam, but by overheating from having his own megabuster be used for ten seconds straight in the beam clash. Mogs was blown up by a spiral ray, and I do not recall it doing anything to SG.


Okay, so- to start, the claim was that Heisei Godzilla didn't damage anyone but weak or already-damaged kaiju. That's already been disproven by this list. Secondly, we don't know that the future-tech alloys are less durable than Heisei King Ghidorah; indeed, the fact that Heisei's ray blew off one of the heads but did not do so to SMG would seem to bely that. (And if the explanation offered is that the nuclear pulse damaged the neck first... then the fact that a broad, spherical shockwave can so weaken the structure of an opponent that was supposedly dominating up to that point that a sudden decapitation is possible doesn't speak well of the structural integrity or durability of Heisei King Ghidorah in the first place). I don't believe that SuperMechagodzilla's only damage was purely from overheating; it took damage in multiple instances. However, it's been a while since I've seen that one, so I'll assume otherwise.

Moguera was blown up by a spiral ray, but still took damage from Godzilla's hits when attacking him initially. SpaceGodzilla was damaged- and eventually killed off- by hits from Godzilla's ray. As part of a cumulative effort, sure; but the question was not whether other kaiju were killed solely by the ray, but whether it did damage. Which it did. Again, the underplaying of Heisei's ray is just not viable. And based on its feats, I am still skeptical of the claim that Rainbow Mothra's arsenal was more powerful.

I'll grant that the durability against melee/kinetic attacks has been demonstrated. I mean, all Mothras head-first tackle and tend to be okay, so I don't count that. But surviving GKG's tackle is a decent durability feat. That said, against rays- which is the benchmark we're looking at here, to determine the strength of GKG's attacks, 'being wrecked by the bolts but not killed' is not a benchmarkable feat. It gives us a comparitor to other attacks from Rainbow Mothra's enemies, sure; but in terms of Rainbow Mothra's durability, it doesn't give us anything to compare to; 'Rainbow Mothra is durable because he survived a beam which wrecked Rainbow Mothra' is essentially circular logic.

The best feat for power is is the buildings. Still not great, because explosion-size is used disproportionately (the explosions in the supposedly-weaker Gamera universe are just as big as the ones in the powerhouse-toho universe)- but close enough. I'm having trouble finding any video clips; I'm assuming, in this case, 'vaporized' is 'exploded bigly'? I mean, keep in mind that Jiger's heat-ray vaporized a city block, as did Mechagodzilla's rotating missiles, and Kiryu's missiles blew up large buildings entirely. So that may give us a benchmark range right there- depending on how the explosions themselves looked, and whether they took out more than one building at a time, and how accurately they hit.


EDIT: Lest I be misunderstood; I'm not trying to claim that Grand King Ghidorah isn't a tough hombre (or that his attack power is as low as Jiger's; that was just an example of how feats against buildings aren't always scalable, especially between alternate-universes). As I said, I suspect it would take multiple kaiju to defeat Grand King Ghidorah, and not just simple meleers like Titano and Kumonga. What I'm trying to address are the claims that he is so invulnerable as to be untouchable by anyone on the other team, or such a blitzkrieg of damage that he could hold at bay any attackers or mow down all the opposition rather than being focused on his own fight. He's tough- and I don't take him lightly (again, to the point that if Destroyah were out of the picture, not occupying him and allowing other kaiju to help their brethren enough to assemble a team of 5-7 to oppose GKG, I would be voting the other way). But I am debating that GKG is so OTT-powerful that nothing on GodzillavsRayquaza's team can touch him, or that everything facing him will fall. I don't think he's demonstrated either attack or defense power sufficient against objective, benchmarkable opposition, to support those claims.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby GodzillavsRayquaza » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:08 am

Image

^ There’s the feat of GKG destroying skyscrapers.

An abridged version of my thoughts on the match, due to the fact that I currently lack the time to write a multiple paragraph argument, is that my team could beat GKG, but I don’t know if they can with the rest of Giratina’s team active. I’m currently on the fence, not leaning either way until further notice. I have numbers and the average of my team is better, but he has a handful of monsters that will be very difficult to overcome.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:13 am

Huh. That doesn't look appreciably more powerful than Megaguirus' flybys (for the first two), or Heisei's beam (for instance, when he swept it across the tower in vs. Mothra: Battle for Earth). It's got a little bit of follow-up explosive power for a couple of seconds, but clearly the skyscrapers in the back were only half-decimated, a little more than the bottom half still standing.

I would peg that as about on par with Kiryu's warehouse-destroying missiles, and less powerful than the rotating missiles from ToMG, based on the effect on buildings. And that was the main ray, which did appear- from the clips I've seen- more powerful than the wing lightning.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Maritonic » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:21 am

First time chiming in on a Fantasy Match so be easy on me. But just personally looking at the two teams, I really think Girantin93 has a slightly stronger team all around. Just counting powerhouses here:
Godzilla 2000
Heisei Ghidorah
Gipsy Danger
Kiryu V. 2
Grand King Ghidorah

Compare that to Godzillavs.Rayquaza's powerhouses:
Godzilla GMK
Hedorah
Destroyah
MAYBE Gigan Showa?

I know this isn't how you guys typically analyze these things, but this is just how I'm seeing the scales of power if all of these monsters were in this forest together. Yes, there are other kaiju there, but to ME these are the big guns. The other kaiju aren't as strong as these are, though I'm sure some arguments could be made.

I know that typically, the norm is to say "Kaiju A fights Kaiju B" but, not to be TOO literal, we don't really know how it would go down. So, for ME PERSONALLY, just analyzing power scales, my vote would go to Girantina93.

P.S.: Please don't give me a warning or poop for doing this a bit differently. This is my first time but I found this interesting.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:34 am

I'd suggest that Gigan and Megalon together represent a powerhouse- they have tactics and complementary powers. But also that numbers advantages and accumulations of smaller kaiju can still make a difference against powerhouses; Ghidrah, the Three-Headed Monster demonstrates that.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Maritonic » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:41 am

Zarm wrote:I'd suggest that Gigan and Megalon together represent a powerhouse- they have tactics and complementary powers. But also that numbers advantages and accumulations of smaller kaiju can still make a difference against powerhouses; Ghidrah, the Three-Headed Monster demonstrates that.


Absolutely true, but that's why things like "monster A attacks B" get tricky to me. Because in my eyes, GMK Godzilla could WASTE Kumonga in a second. But, GMK fighting Godzilla 2000? Far too long of a battle. It's all far too chaotic to really quantify. That's why I was just seesawing the Level A guys. But, yes, there are definitely the team ups to consider as well.

Added in 5 minutes 56 seconds:
I'm trying to look at this like a Real Time Strategy game. How I would personally play one.

And what I always do is focus on the Big Guys and worry about the little ones later. You'll lose big guys in the mean time, but once THEIR big guys are gone, you can focus on their little guys. So, for example, Kumonga (to me) is a little guy where as Gigan is a middle tier. All in all I feel Girantina's team consists of more Top and Middle tier guys than Rayquaza's. That's just how I, personally, see it.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Coobzilla03 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:56 am

Your vote doesn't count Maritonic, but your input is appreciated!
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Maritonic » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:08 am

Sorry 'bout that. Got a bit too excited to chime in :)
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:36 am

Another point I feel should be raised, in addition to the above; Grand King Ghidorah has proven vulnerable to point-blank attack with cutting weapons. While Destroyah is being downplayed a lot here, and the Katana horn dismissed as ‘infrequently used,’ Destroyah will get close (he got close to Burning Godzilla, after all), and he will use it at least once. Grand King Ghidorah is not going to fare well having his chest sliced open (I mean, with a possibly-mystic boost from Armor Mothra, that’s literally what killed him), especially if Destroyah follows his standard tactic of injecting micro-oxygen into the open wound, and/or clawing away pieces from the edge of it.

And even if Destroyah doesn't finish the job or follow-up with another Katana- again, a kaiju like Gigan or, especially, Megalon (having proved a damage sponge without a yet-revealed upper limit, possessing drill-hands that could tear into that open wound and kill GKG, a similar mass so that GKG can't even throw him around or stomp on him lethally, and the ability to approach from underground, burrowing up and getting in close without even absorbing fire in the first place) could easily capitalize on that wound to inflict fatal damage.

Have some confidence in yourself, GodzillavsRayquaza... your team is uniquely-suited to taking down Grand King Ghidorah, owing to your preponderance of slicing, drilling implements against a kaiju who, for all his bluster and fury, does not fare well against up-close cutting attacks.

I'd humbly submit to those who have voted, and are still considering, that this is a pretty significant consideration in terms of Grand King ghidorah's vulnerability or lack thereof.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Maritonic » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:51 am

Did Destoryah's final form inject micro-oxygen? I only thought that was the Aggregate form that did it with it's second mouth, not the final form with his Katana horn. Could be totally wrong, here.

Physical attacks are indeed a threat against Grand King Ghidorah...but that's assuming they can get close enough to him and he's on the ground long enough for them to do any damage.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:31 am

I don't think Destroyah did with his horn, if that's what you mean; not sure if that is his MO in final form. But, it's kind of win-win; Destroyah is up against him in adult form, he can follow-up with beams blasting, claws tearing, etc. If GKG dishes out enough damage to cause one of the 5 reformations (which is possible; as analyzed above, GKG has potential for roughly Heisei-level strength in his attacks, which Destroyah can deal with for some time, but not indefinitely), there's aggregates right there, swarming GKG's body, that can do the injecting. So in either form, he has potential to capitalize on the wound with lethal damage.

And that's assuming he attacks with center mass; the horn could also easily decapitate a Ghidorah-head, which is traditionally when a Ghidorah falls and is quickly dispatched.

Again- for all its proclaimed rarity, it would be used at least once. Destroyah has demonstrated the ability to weather this level of firepower, and has the flight capability and durability to close with GKG, either in the air, or on the ground (and does have the ability with the leverage in that tail, and its ability to discharge energy as he uses it to drag folks around, to bring Grand King Ghidorah to ground; possibly by one-already-weakened neck which would become a natural focus of follow-up attack). At which point, history dictates, the Horn Katana will receive at least one use, among other attacks; with a creature structured like Ghidorah, with three natural weak-points and a vulnerability to slicing, once is all it will take. And the continued use of other attacks will only enhance the damage. Even if Destroyah opts for a center-mass attack, the likelihood of that wound being torn into- and even micro-oxygen infected when Destroyah breaks down into aggregates, which will also allow him to attack from multiple vectors- still bodes ill for Grand King Ghidorah's survival. And that's even without an assist from Gigan and Megalon, who are durable enough to close range (one of them, as aforementioned, being able to get in close without even taking fire), have the flight to pursue, and bladed weapons of their own. That only further seals the deal.
Last edited by Zarm on Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:09 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Coobzilla03 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:54 am

Destroyah is scaled down to 60 meters, 40,000 tons and GKG is 60 meters, 50,000 tons. The Mothra Trilogy seems to use the 50 meter scale, so its fair that he doesn't shrink.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:56 am

So-noted; post has been revised.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Maritonic » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:18 am

You're also forgetting there is a second Ghidorah at play here; Heisei Ghidorah and Grand King Ghidorah. Not to mention enough fliers to aid in keeping the skies clear.
Rodan '64 could handle Megalon, and 2004 Gigan and keep Showa Gigan distracted at least enough to allow the two Ghidorahs to take control of the field. Fire Rodan roasts Megaguirus (literally). At this point, the only real threat to the Ghidorahs is Destroyah but I doubt he'd really be able to get close enough.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:40 am

Maritonic wrote:You're also forgetting there is a second Ghidorah at play here; Heisei Ghidorah and Grand King Ghidorah. Not to mention enough fliers to aid in keeping the skies clear.
Rodan '64 could handle Megalon, and 2004 Gigan and keep Showa Gigan distracted at least enough to allow the two Ghidorahs to take control of the field. Fire Rodan roasts Megaguirus (literally). At this point, the only real threat to the Ghidorahs is Destroyah but I doubt he'd really be able to get close enough.


No, I'm not forgetting them; I already accounted for them in my breakdown. Hedorah's dealing with that Ghidorah. :) He's not free. Meanwhile, 2004 Gigan is crippled; all his machine parts are inactive. He'll be dispatched almost immediately, so Showa Gigan will be free. I must respectfully disagree about Rodan, especially with Gigan free to double-team with his old partner (even then, facing Meglaon alone, Rodan is not going to enjoy napalm, the horn ray, just getting tackled or hit with drills, etc., and can't really do any damage to Megalon; certainly not a critical amount). Fire Rodan has to hit Megaguirus first, which is not an easy task.

Each of these has their own battle, and there's no reason that GKG would be receiving reinforcements, especially not right away (and if he did, not reason that a freed-up Gigan or Megalon, having quickly dispatched disabled 2004 Gigan, couldn't come to deal with them and keep them off Destroyah's back). If both Ghidorahs are teamed for some reason, then so are Destroyah and several of his allies that won't be needed to fight the other Ghidorah elsewhere.

And why- after everything I just demonstrated- would you doubt that Destroyah would be able to get close? Destroyah can keep up in the air and approach on the ground. He has a longer reach with his tail (approximately 90 meters, scaled). GKG is not a fortress with magical repelling beams; one simply needs to walk up to him- or fly up to him if he is in the air- to be past his barrier. And Destroyah has proved capable of taking that level of punishment and closing with a foe. He's also strong- he lifted Junior with one hand, threw Godzilla aside 'like a rag doll,' as per the analysis, and drug both Junior and Godzilla (3/4 his own weight) around without even slowing his flight-speed.

Not to mention that Megalon and Gigan also remain threats to GKG, especially with the aforementioned ability to get in close without taking fire for Megalon, and Gigan's ability to launch high-speed, mid-flight cutting attacks. (Unless you meant 'the only threat free to engage him').
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Maritonic » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:45 am

I doubt it because Destroyah is absolutely a slow flyer while Ghidorah flies at Mach 3. And just going by visual memory from both their respective films, Ghidorah could easily outfly him. I don't see how Destroyah would wrap his tail around one of his heads and drag him down without getting blasted by a gravity beam, or one of the lightning bolts from his wings.

Your entire basis relies solely on Destroyah, who is extremely slow, getting Ghidorah on the ground and getting up close and personal with him and I think that's quite a reach, personally.

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And, yes, I meant only threat able to engage him. This is why I really dislike the concept of A fights B because they're ENTIRELY subjective, chaotic, and there are infinite possibilites. I revert back to my Power Scales for my personal judgement.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:29 am

Maritonic wrote:I doubt it because Destroyah is absolutely a slow flyer while Ghidorah flies at Mach 3. And just going by visual memory from both their respective films, Ghidorah could easily outfly him. I don't see how Destroyah would wrap his tail around one of his heads and drag him down without getting blasted by a gravity beam, or one of the lightning bolts from his wings.


Yes, Destroyah might take a shot while grabbing him. But again, Destroyah has taken multiple hits at that level before, so it's not as if that's going to disrupt his ability. Destroyah's flight speed is unknown- but I don't think GKG was going Mach 3 in combat, either. :)

there is no reason- based on the combat with Mothra- to think that GKG is just going to stay out of reach. The Ghidorahs never do. Giratina has cited multiple times GKG's attempted tackle; he comes in close for melee. And if he's spending all his time fleeing and evading, he's not going to be doing much attacking.

Likewise, in regards to flight-speed, bear in mind that Destroyah carried 3/4 his own weight without even slowing down. That seems to indicate a much greater flight-speed potential (again, his speed is unknown to official stats), which he did not use due to his target (and battle) being stationary, while GKG's was mobile and airborne.


Maritonic wrote:Your entire basis relies solely on Destroyah, who is extremely slow, getting Ghidorah on the ground and getting up close and personal with him and I think that's quite a reach, personally.


Again, Destroyah's speed is unknown but demonstrated capabilities suggest it could well match or exceed GKG's, and GKG's own tactics involve his closing to melee range intentionally at times. Heck, based on his proportions, his average flight ceiling seems to be within the length of Destroyah's tail if Destroyah is on the ground. I think it's not only not a reach, it's extremely likely based on the tactics of each.



Maritonic wrote:And, yes, I meant only threat able to engage him. This is why I really dislike the concept of A fights B because they're ENTIRELY subjective, chaotic, and there are infinite possibilites. I revert back to my Power Scales for my personal judgement.


But with all due respect,those power-scales seem to count-out anyone who isn't a 'heavy hitter' from making any contributions, and ignore any tactics that a 'lower' could use against a 'higher' (such as Gigan and Megalon, to return to the oft-cited example) to even out or compensate for their general 'ranking'. They are less chaotic, but also ignore critical factors.

That said- it is entirely fair to feel that Destroyah is the only one that can engage GKG (and, as stated, I think their are numerous factors supporting the likelihood of Destroyah's victory), but it is not fair to place others from Giratina's team in support of GKG without placing others from GvsRQ's team in support of Destroyah- especially as GvsRQ has the numbers advantage.

GKG vs. Destroyah alone, I can argue (and have been); GKG and ally vs. Destroyah and ally, I can also argue. But GKG and ally vs. Destroyah doesn't seem to have any basis for occurring.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Maritonic » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:36 am

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Last edited by Maritonic on Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby Zarm » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:21 am

Hey, guys! Got challenged to a film-analysis of GKG, so... here it is! Tl;dr summary is in blue at the bottom, for convenience.

Building destruction is an inconsistent benchmark*. Even as a metric within the movie, the attacks are inconsistent. In fact, we see the two skyscrapers explode in the distance, which appear to encompass around 18 floors each. We don't actually see anything strike them. Then gravity bolts come in and strike a building in the foreground, and only seem to affect about four or five floors (which is indeed equivalent to Heisei's vs. Mothra showing). It extends off the top of the screen, but unless the bolts somehow do far more damage up above than they do down below, rather than radiating out from the center of impact, the gravity beamd appear to be less powerful. Then we see an entire building get razed to the ground, which is 14 floors, so still within the same range of the first attack, though again we don't see it struck by anything. Then, as people are running down to the subway, we see a building that is at least 25 floors being destroyed, again without being visibly struck by anything. (Timecodes around 44:30 in the film, for reference)

Honestly, there is no indication as to what is causing the destruction. There's distinctly both a special effect and a sound effect when the gravity bolts are used, which is absent during each of these other destructions (in the same scene, and even the same shot). The lack of sound and visual effect presumably also rules rules out the wing lightning. But from the one onscreen use, the gravity beam seems to be far less powerful, having far less of an effect the one time that we see it actually impact the structure than whatever is leveling 20ish floors. The most damage we see Grand King Ghidorah doing to a building with him actually onscreen is when he crashes through two close-together towers at the start of the sequence.

But it would seem that Grand King Ghidorah has at least some form of building-destroying weapon that can damage somewhere between 18 and 25 floors, including the destruction of any structure that is smaller than, and thus within, that range. (Perhaps this is even his anti-gravity rays, which can keep him aloft without wings, interfering with whatever they pass directly over.)

We do not have enough information onscreen to quantify this weapon or identify with any of those used against Mothra. We do have enough information to rule out the gravity bolts, which are actually a good deal less powerful based on their one on-screen showing against buildings (pictured in the GIF above). And this building-destroying weapon, whatever it may be, then comes on par with Kiryu's missiles, which destroyed structures of a similar size, and Jiger's heat ray, which also did similar half damage to tall skyscrapers.


Also notable- Grand King Ghidorah's barrier. While it appears to be only a few meters away from his body when Mothra is attacking him, fairy Mothra's beams attack one of the heads from much farther away, as we see them drawing closer onscreen and have a good estimate of the distance. Grand King Ghidorah is also unaware of the fairies- indicating the barriers may be a conscious phenomena, only raised when he is aware of the incoming attack. We also only see them deployed in a single direction. These two factsm ay imply that he is susceptible to surprise attack or ambush from behind, or even from multiple vectors.

In addition, around the 27 minute mark, just before Grand King Ghidorah comes in behind Mothra and starts stomping on him, Mothra strafes across Grand King Ghidorah with a barrage of beams- and the last few, toward the tail area, seem to get through, generating small, smoky explosions. This seems to suggest that the barrier may not be in vulnerable, and can be breached.

In fact, a review of this battle indicates that the much-vaunted barrier is only used four times- twice by the beam emitted from the head, once by the beam emitted by the chest, and once by the winged beams. Only the wing beams are blocked without any kind of smokey explosion effect, indicating actual damage. The chest beam, while hitting the barrier, still sets off small explosions all over GKG's body, and he howls in pain. Smaller explosions are drawn by the head-beam both times. Of the five times that we see, only one of them appears to negate can all damage, and at least one of them- from the fairies- the barrier doesn't seem to come into play at all. Likewise, when Barry and Belvera attack later. The barrier also doesn't appear at all when Armor Mothra attacks with a beam. Even combining the multiple bolts shot by the fairies into a single 'attack,' this means that six out of seven attacks did damage through the barrier, and for three out of the seven, the barrier didn't appear at all. And that's not counting the actual number of shots it didn't appear for, which passes the 50% mark when factored.


Likewise, that the gravity beams 'wrecking' Mothra Leo is entirely unsupported. Leo is hit several times, but never seems to suffer grievous damage until GKG crashes down on him repeatedly- which, as Giratina noted, makes perfect sense with the massive weight disparity. GKG's defeat of Mothra is due to leveraging his mass against a lightweight, not the gravity bolts, which Mothra took several times with less aparent discomfort than his own chest beam gave barrier-protected Ghidorah.

Also notable is GKG's slow rate of fire. It seems to be a common assertion that other kaiju wouldn't even be able to get close because of the powerful storm of weaponry that would be directed their way, but Grand King Ghidorah uses his bolts only once every 30 seconds or longer, seeming to prefer melee and tackles almost more than he does that weapon. That, combined with its lower power against the buildings than whatever was actually destroying them (a weapon which he apparently never uses in combat with Mothra) does not speak well to his offensive capabilities. He only fires that beam around 5-7 times in the entirety of both battles with Mothra. And the wing lightning, he uses only once, as a last resort, in the second battle. Because it does absolutely nothing to Armor Mothra, we have no benchmark on its power level- but, it does do less sparks and little explosions when it impacts against Armor Mothra than the gravity bolts did.


To summarize, Grand King Ghidorah's gravity bolts have been shown to be far less destructive than whatever explodes the buildings, which is not used in combat. The gravity bolts are also used infrequently in combat, with a very long time in between uses, and (while not lacking harmful effect) did not do appreciable or serious damage to Mothra Leo. Mothra was able to fly up to Grand King Ghidorah with no problem and launched the first attack, and was able to get up close to him multiple times without coming under gravity bolt attack in the second battle. The wing lightning is used almost never, and lacks any benchmark to indicate that it is especially damaging- and has at least one minor indication that it may be less so than the gravity bolts. In terms of defensive power, Grand King Ghidorah can easily be closed with, is susceptible to melee and cutting attacks, and has a barrier that only appears less than half the time, and permits damage through from attacks multiple times.

Grand King Ghidorah is not the all-powerful threat that he's made out to be. He can dish out damage on the level of Heisei Godzilla, but uses it far less frequently. His attacks are few and far between, and his defensive barrier, while blunting some damage, does not block high- or mid-level attacks entirely, and is sometimes entirely absent- much like SpaceGodzilla's infrequently-used ability. He can be closed-with easily, by just about any Kaiju, and he's susceptible to being tackled out of the air by something far less than his own weight, without using significant amount of his arsenal on incoming attackers to deter them. Especially if his opponent approaches from above, below, or behind- Grand King Ghidorah flies in straight, relatively-linear paths, and does not use his range of motion to attack anything unless it's right in front of him. He will try and get around behind them, like an aerial dogfighter, but any approach made to him from anything other than directly head-on will be able to strike without initial opposition. His barrier will stop weak energy attacks only, and even that inconsistently. Stronger energy attacks will only be partially blocked, in the instances where the barrier does appear. Physical objects aren't blocked at all.

Grand King Ghidorah is not unthreatening, but he is not even close to untouchable. His bolts are his strongest feature, and even they are less powerful than previously believed, and far more infrequently used.
Last edited by Zarm on Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Monster Mayhem Round 8: GodzillavsRayquaza vs. Giratina93

Postby GodzillavsRayquaza » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:05 pm

GKG is the only one that can possibly pose a threat to Destoroyah, being the only one who could reliably stop him from reforming. Everyone else could at best drive the Aggregates off, allowing them to reform, or would simply be overwhelmed and drained to death. GKG has shown that he’s willing to let enemies get close, which won’t be good when Destoroyah uses the laser horn, which might kill GKG in one strike. Yes, the laser horn is not exactly Destoroyah’s go-to, but he will use it when push comes to shove. If they don’t fight immediately, then my team has the numbers advantage and strength to survive whatever the Ghidorahs can dish out.

The rest of my team is deadly. Gigan and Megalon working together can handle just about anyone other than GKG, Megaguirus can dodge around and stab anyone other than GKG, GMK Godzilla can tank through almost everything the enemy can throw at him, Titanosaurus can decimate anyone without a beam on the opposing team or just do a lot of damage to someone with a beam, and killing Hedorah will take more focus from the beam users than they can afford to use with everyone else on my team active. The rest of my team is capable of providing good distractions.

64 Rodan, Kong, and Baragon do not pose a threat to anyone on my team, except maybe the Mothras or the Big One. Kong is fierce, but much too fragile to truly make a difference, Baragon can at best annoy and distract a powerhouse, and Rodan is heavily overrated. His best durability feat is ignoring one of the weakest atomic breaths in the franchise’s history, and his most powerful attack hurt him more than it did King Ghidorah. GMK Godzilla should be able to blast him out of the sky without too much trouble, or Megaguirus or a Mothra could knock him to the ground where someone else could kill him.

Heisei King Ghidorah, Gypsy Danger, and Fire Rodan are tougher. Heisei King Ghidorah could take out almost anyone on my team in a 1v1, barring Hedorah and Destoroyah of course, but would he be able to get a 1v1? Maybe for a time, but unless he’s fighting one of my fodder, all it’ll take is another monster jumping in to turn the tide. King Ghidorah’s gravity bolts leave a lot to be desired, meaning melee is really going to be his only option for actually killing anyone, leaving him quite open. Gypsy Danger is relatively a glass cannon, her blades will hurt quite a bit, and I could see her taking at least one kaiju with her, but she can’t last long enough help her teammates. Fire Rodan will be incredibly deadly with his beam, until another’s flyer engages him. Not using his beam against flying foes won’t do much good against Megaguirus’s speed or Gigan’s buzzsaw, but unless someone flies to him quickly, he’s taking out at least one kaiju.

Kiryu is tough, but nothing too deadly. He’ll be out of commission for a while, and if he returns he’s probably not going to be in a favorable situation.

G2000 and GKG are what made my decision difficult. Unless my greatest powerhouses gun for them immediately, they’re going to hurt my team hard. G2000’s beam will wreck whoever it hits, and his regen means that beam’s not getting taken out of play quickly. Fortunately, he isn’t spammy with it, and his melee sucks. Any kaiju that can get up close will distract him for a while, and most of my team is deadly in melee. My thoughts on GKG echo Zarm’s, though mine are a tad more favorable to GKG than his. He’s deadly, and he’s taking kaiju down with him for sure, but he’s not the indestructible behemoth he’s quite made out to be.

So ultimately, my team is overall more durable, has greater numbers, and has a better balance of power instead of having to hope a handful of powerhouses can carry.
Last edited by GodzillavsRayquaza on Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
King of the Monsters wrote:You guys, this Godzilla was clearly the next GINO from the point its silhouette was revealed on that poster and it wasn't just the Heisei Godzilla. Any true fan would feel the same way.


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