Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby kamilleblu » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:08 pm

Arbok wrote:For me the negative was that the serious tone of the series left after Biollante. Both of the 1980's entries had both a serious or gothic take on things, and that felt like it was totally gone by the 1990's. I enjoy all of them, but I can certainly say as a kid I was beyond disappointed in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah and its departure from the two prior films in tone.

Both Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs Biollante are bit rough around the edges, though it would have been better to continue in that direction and perfect the new style. If Toho was concerned about it being too dark for mainstream appeal, it's possible to inject some levity without completely abandoning the atmosphere. Would have helped the Heisei films to further distinguish themselves from what came before. I would have preferred that over the trilogy of poorly executed nostalgia wanking we got instead. Everything post-Biollante suffers from various degrees of blandness, inexcusably sloppy special effects, mundane acting, poor pacing, ill-advised homages to Hollywood blockbusters, and underdeveloped scripts (that wasted interesting concepts) undeserving of the increased run times. Godzilla was never subtle about its themes, but Godzilla vs Mothra took things to levels previously inconceivable. All of the fight scenes after Godzilla vs King Ghidorah leave me feeling bored. Switching between shot/countershot and long shots of borderline immobile monsters spamming beams or sparking as they bump into one another with little concern for pacing doesn't do much for me. Akira Ifukube did his best to make the images onscreen seem important though there's only so music can do to uplift such material. Compare anything after Godzilla vs King Ghidorah to the final battle of Guardian of the Universe or the Shibuya district fight in The Revenge of Iris. But I do appreciate the inclusion of animatronics in the Heisei Godzilla films.

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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:16 pm

LegendZilla wrote:Why the skreeonk does this thread even exist? Complaining about the Heisei series is literally what every single other thread is for, which is why my own thread was made to serve as a counterbalance.


And now we have a thread specifically for criticising the Heisei series, so now all the criticism can be placed in a single thread, and you can ignore it if you want to.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby LegendZilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:20 pm

Cybermat47 wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:Why the skreeonk does this thread even exist? Complaining about the Heisei series is literally what every single other thread is for, which is why my own thread was made to serve as a counterbalance.


And now we have a thread specifically for criticising the Heisei series, so now all the criticism can be placed in a single thread, and you can ignore it if you want to.


Then in that case, does that excuse setting up threads dedicated to bashing films such as GMK?
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby GigaGoji » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:49 pm

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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby KingKaiju » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:14 pm

Post Biollante, Toho milked Godzilla like Paramount milks Transformers.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Zarm » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:13 pm

LegendZilla wrote:
Cybermat47 wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:Why the skreeonk does this thread even exist? Complaining about the Heisei series is literally what every single other thread is for, which is why my own thread was made to serve as a counterbalance.


And now we have a thread specifically for criticising the Heisei series, so now all the criticism can be placed in a single thread, and you can ignore it if you want to.


Then in that case, does that excuse setting up threads dedicated to bashing films such as GMK?

"Say something negative about Shin Godzilla"?
"Say something negative about the Monsterverse"? (I think that's also 'every thread')
"Say something negative about the Showa Series"?

Guys, is this really who we want to be? As a response to the 'say something positive,' it is at best a complete ignoring of the context of that thread to counteract the rest of the site, and at worst blatant trolling or an immature insult directed at LegendZilla. As a precedent-setter, is it really where we want to take the site? As an isolated thread not intended to be copied in other eras, it's gratuitous and utterly needless... and as a lightning-rod for existing negativity to gather all in one place, it only has a valid function if criticism of the era outside the thread ceases. It's not a valid reasoning otherwise.

But again, even if you feel that you can honestly answer each of those question in the affirming, non-trolling manner as justification for this thread, I'll leave it at what I consider the most important of those questions: once again, is this really where we want to take the site?
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby LegendZilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:29 pm

Zarm wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:
Cybermat47 wrote:
And now we have a thread specifically for criticising the Heisei series, so now all the criticism can be placed in a single thread, and you can ignore it if you want to.


Then in that case, does that excuse setting up threads dedicated to bashing films such as GMK?

"Say something negative about Shin Godzilla"?
"Say something negative about the Monsterverse"? (I think that's also 'every thread')
"Say something negative about the Showa Series"?

Guys, is this really who we want to be? As a response to the 'say something positive,' it is at best a complete ignoring of the context of that thread to counteract the rest of the site, and at worst blatant trolling or an immature insult directed at LegendZilla. As a precedent-setter, is it really where we want to take the site? As an isolated thread not intended to be copied in other eras, it's gratuitous and utterly needless... and as a lightning-rod for existing negativity to gather all in one place, it only has a valid function if criticism of the era outside the thread ceases. It's not a valid reasoning otherwise.

But again, even if you feel that you can honestly answer each of those question in the affirming, non-trolling manner as justification for this thread, I'll leave it at what I consider the most important of those questions: once again, is this really where we want to take the site?


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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:30 pm

Zarm wrote:once again, is this really where we want to take the site?


The thread isn’t taking the site in any new direction. People are always going to criticise films.

I can’t speak for the others, but I see this thread as a place to make justified criticisms of the Heisei series, and LegendZilla’s thread as a place to justifiably praise the Heisei series. And, while it would be best to merge the two threads into a general Heisei opinion thread, it’s just more convenient to have those two threads, rather than having a hundred threads about specific criticisms of the series. I’d rather people post their criticisms here, rather than making an entire thread dedicated to the “take that, you Dinosaur” line.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby GIGAN05 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:32 pm

If there's one thing that plagued the series starting with Ghidorah -

SHADOWS

The one thing that urked me more then any other was those really badly rendered shadows from flying monsters.

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Last edited by GIGAN05 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby UltimateDitto » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:58 pm

Godzilla vs Mothra, atleast the English dub, haven't seen the Japanese dub yet, is the worst when it comes to characters.

I found most, if not all the characters annoying, monster fights were the highlight of the movie for me.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Zarm » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:32 am

Let me put it this way. If this were a general Hollywood forum, would we create a 'Say something negative about women and minorities' thread because they've been getting more positive representation in media lately, to 'counterbalance' that? Or is the whole point of that positive representation to counteract the overwhelming mass of negative representation that has already existed free-floating in the culture beforehand? That's what's going on here. The idea that the attempt to elevate something that has been receiving negativity from all quarters now requires more negativity to cancel out even that one spark of positivity is missing the point entirely.

At the very least, in order to be intellectually honest, equivalent threads need to be popping up in every era's forums; otherwise, it's just gentrified Heisei-bashing trying to hide behind a veneer of respectability.
Last edited by Zarm on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:


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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Cybermat47 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:44 am

Zarm wrote:Let me put it this way. If this were a general Hollywood forum, would we create a 'Say something negative about women and minorities' thread because they've been getting more positive representation in media lately, to 'counterbalance' that? Or is the whole point of that positive representation to counteract the overwhelming mass of negative representation that has already existed free-floating in the culture beforehand? That's what's going on here. The idea that the attempt to elevate something that has been receiving negativity from all quarters now requires more negativity to cancel out even that one spark of positivity is missing the point entirely.


I don’t think that criticism of a few movies is comparable to the opression of women, non-whites, and minorities in European history...

At the very least, in order to be intellectually honest, equivalent threads need to be popping up in every era's forums; otherwise, it's just gentrified Heisei-bashing trying to hide behind a veneer of respectability.


And I would like to see such threads exist. Even the best movies have flaws, like the clunky English dialogue in Shin.
Last edited by Cybermat47 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:57 am

Zarm wrote:Let me put it this way. If this were a general Hollywood forum, would we create a 'Say something negative about women and minorities' thread because they've been getting more positive representation in media lately, to 'counterbalance' that? Or is the whole point of that positive representation to counteract the overwhelming mass of negative representation that has already existed free-floating in the culture beforehand? That's what's going on here. The idea that the attempt to elevate something that has been receiving negativity from all quarters now requires more negativity to cancel out even that one spark of positivity is missing the point entirely.

That's taking it a little too far honestly, these are kaiju films after all.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Zarm » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:42 am

That's the problem with metaphors- they always have too many facets, and the one wrong one comes across. :) I'm not comparing the subject, I'm comparing the principle. (Which is, annoyingly, a lot more abstract and usually requires using as an example an application that is wildly different from the one being discussed). In this case, I'm trying to illustrate the notion of positive representation to counter an already negative treatment... and the inherent issues involved in trying to counter that positive representation with further negativity.

The subjects of negativity in these two cases (oppressed minorities and a film series) are not comparable. The inappropriateness of trying to counteract the attempt at positivity with more of the same bashing that's been going on universally all through the past is comparable, as far as I can see, and generally why I object to this thread.

If this thread becomes the sole outlet for negativity on the era on the site, it will serve the purpose it is theoretically supposed to. Barring a contract between all parties involved in the site to do that, it's just another bashing thread. It's not going to replace all those other individual ones- just add to them. And again, I don't think any forum needs a thread literally requesting negativity. We get enough of that without soliciting it, and that's the kind of thing that turns forums toxic.
Last edited by Zarm on Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:


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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby TheRedKing1979 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:07 am

Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla essentially forgetting who Godzilla is that if you look at closely, it's story telling is more horrid then GvsKG's time travel plotholes.

GvsSG butt scene. Not needed.

Essentially ruining Baby Godzilla before Junior saved the character.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Major sssspielberg! » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:47 am

UltimateDitto wrote:Godzilla vs Mothra, atleast the English dub, haven't seen the Japanese dub yet, is the worst when it comes to characters.

I found most, if not all the characters annoying, monster fights were the highlight of the movie for me.


Always hated that movie, until I watched it the other day.
Pretty gpod monster action. The characters are a lot more tolerable in Japanese, in ny opinion. The kid even goes from annoying to cute.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby eabaker » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:31 am

Major sssspielberg! wrote:The characters are a lot more tolerable in Japanese, in ny opinion. The kid even goes from annoying to cute.


Agreed. While this was never a movie that was wildly beloved by American fans, I feel like opinions on it dropped sharply when the dub was released over here. When people only really had access to the subbed version, it was generally considered an okay, unremarkable entry. When everyone started evaluating it from the dub, suddenly the default take seemed to become "worst Godzilla movie ever."
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Major sssspielberg! » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:35 pm

eabaker wrote:
Agreed. While this was never a movie that was wildly beloved by American fans, I feel like opinions on it dropped sharply when the dub was released over here. When people only really had access to the subbed version, it was generally considered an okay, unremarkable entry. When everyone started evaluating it from the dub, suddenly the default take seemed to become "worst Godzilla movie ever."


I only ever had access to the dub until the Blu-ray came out, and it was at the bottom of my list until a couple days ago! Besides the family plot being better than I remembered, I never realized how good Ifukube's score was. Certainly not a bad film at all, at least by Heisei standards.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby GodzillaBurgh » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:56 am

The one negative thing I can say about the Heisei Series is that Yakuza subplot in GODZILLA VS. SPACEGODZILLA. That was kinda pointless.
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Re: Say Something Negative About The Heisei Series

Postby Cybermat47 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:34 am

GodzillaBurgh wrote:The one negative thing I can say about the Heisei Series is that Yakuza subplot in GODZILLA VS. SPACEGODZILLA. That was kinda pointless.


It served only to extend the runtime. Also, I have to wonder... why was the Yakuza leader white? Is there a mobster exchange program?

That said... I actually like the Yakuza subplot. It’s just so random and sudden that I can’t help but laugh at it. I mean, it literally just bursts in on the main characters and beats them while they sleep. It also ends beautifully, with Dr. Okubo majestically straddling a computer.

Also, Miki finally becomes a Jedi.
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